RANK! Better Career: Bourque vs Lidstrom vs Coffey vs Stevens

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TheDevilMadeMe

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I realise that clocking a player from the tv isn't going to be 100% accurate but it's still not going to be out by more than a minute or two at the very most and we're talking about times in the 37-45 minute range so it's still a ****load no matter what.



AND that being said, both Chelios and Leetch had a hell of a lot more help and support than Bourque did.
Chelios had Suter, Smith and Marchment sharing the load.
Leetch had Zubov, Patrick and Beukeboom.
Bourque had...?

As a young player, Bourque had the luxury of being mentored by (and I believe paired with) Brad Park, but I agree that in his prime, he had less help on the blueline than the rest of the contemporaries he is usually compared to

One thing about Lidstrom though - between Larry Murphy and Brian Rafalski, I believe that he never really had a regular partner and was generally paired with young players to mentor them. Scott Stevens was also generally partnered with whatever rookie the Devils wanted to break in from the time Shawn Chambers left (after 1996-97) until rookie Brian Rafalski finally stuck in 2000.
 

Big Phil

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As a young player, Bourque had the luxury of being mentored by (and I believe paired with) Brad Park, but I agree that in his prime, he had less help on the blueline than the rest of the contemporaries he is usually compared to

One thing about Lidstrom though - between Larry Murphy and Brian Rafalski, I believe that he never really had a regular partner and was generally paired with young players to mentor them. Scott Stevens was also generally partnered with whatever rookie the Devils wanted to break in from the time Shawn Chambers left (after 1996-97) until rookie Brian Rafalski finally stuck in 2000.

There was a guy named Paul Coffey who was around in Lidstrom's second season. Maybe they weren't ever paired together (can't remember) but I'd call that a pretty good mentor. Not that it changes a whole lot though. Neither Park or Coffey were holding their hands or even playing in the NHL when they started to win their Norris trophies. You still have to do things on the ice.
 

habsfanatics*

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May 20, 2012
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Given the data, at best the two should be much closer in any unbiased voting, even if the question that is posed makes it difficult to pick anyone other than Lidstrom in a sport that is a team sport and where it's tough to remove the team aspects.

Yet the poll here has Bourque as the run away winner. Food for thought.

There is nothing to think about.
 

Steve Kournianos

@thedraftanalyst
I realise that clocking a player from the tv isn't going to be 100% accurate but it's still not going to be out by more than a minute or two at the very most and we're talking about times in the 37-45 minute range so it's still a ****load no matter what.



AND that being said, both Chelios and Leetch had a hell of a lot more help and support than Bourque did.
Chelios had Suter, Smith and Marchment sharing the load.
Leetch had Zubov, Patrick and Beukeboom.
Bourque had...?

Leetch played with Zubov for a season and a half and never together at ES. In the three seasons before Zubov and Beukeboom arrived, Leetch won a Calder, set a rookie dman goal record and was a 2nd Team all star.

Patrick was terrible defensively and never paired with Leetch. Both Bergeron and Neilson tried to and it didn't work.

And Beukeboom was redundant. He was a big hitter and a pylon. He was a nobody until he came to the Rangers and even on the Rangers he was far from someone you would say "wow Leetch is lucky to play with that guy". They certainly complimented one another, but who gets credit for that?

Boy, Leetch was sure "lucky" to have guys like Randy Moller, an archaic Ron greschner, Mark Hardy, Milo Horava and a one-legged Norman Rochefort. Patrick was an uber-liability defensively and was booed incessantly by his own fans.

The teammate excuse might work if you knew what you were talking about.

As for Bourque, Glen Wesley and Don Sweeney struggled as youngsters (as did Zubov) but both later developed into solid top-4 dmen, with Sweeney becoming one of the better positional dmen in the league and rarely was paired with Bourque until later. IIRC Sweeney was on the second pairing and exclusively played the left side.

Bourque had the "misfortune" of being paired with Brad McCrimmon, Brad Park, and Gord Kluzak, who in 1988 were arguably the best pairing in the league.

In his later years, Bourque was paired with McClaren and Gill, who both went on to have very solid NHL careers well after Bourque left Boston.

How about the defensive-minded or two-way forwards Bourque had the luxury of playing with? How about Oates and Kaspar and Poulin and Reid and Donato and Krusher and Bob Sweeney and Bobby Carpenter?

The Bruins were from top-to-bottom a defense-oriented team. This isn't a debate. The Garden ice surface was smaller than all rinks (except the Aud I think) and Sinden designed teams to play a suffocating, in-your-face style.
 

unknown33

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Reading the post above mine, I will add that seeing something this lopsided when comparing arguably two of the best to ever play the game makes it pretty easy to dismiss the poll outright. Only Orr garners that type of unquestionable superiority from most fans. An unbiased result would have them nearly equal, with some personal preference on some aspect leaning one way or the other, and these should negate each other on the whole.
Even in a 100% to 0% poll results two options can still be nearly equal, because we aren't voting on margins.
 

Steve Kournianos

@thedraftanalyst
Again, if you're going to say Lidstrom benefited from his teammates, than you have to say Bourque benefited from his.

When the Bruins moved across the street to a bigger ice surface, we saw the Bruins go from 6th in the NHL in GA in 1995 (last season at Garden) to 17th in 1996 (first at Fleet) to dead-last 26th in 1997.

Those numbers convinced Sinden to get younger and quicker, which is why they gave Mclaren a chance (who was excellent in 1998), along with Thornton, Samsonov, Allison etc.

Sinden tried to surround Bourque with players. Does the Smolinski-Murray trade ring a bell? It backfired, Kaspar benched Neely and they got bounced in the 1st round.
 

Rhiessan71

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Leetch played with Zubov for a season and a half and never together at ES. In the three seasons before Zubov and Beukeboom arrived, Leetch won a Calder, set a rookie dman goal record and was a 2nd Team all star.

Patrick was terrible defensively and never paired with Leetch. Both Bergeron and Neilson tried to and it didn't work.

And Beukeboom was redundant. He was a big hitter and a pylon. He was a nobody until he came to the Rangers and even on the Rangers he was far from someone you would say "wow Leetch is lucky to play with that guy". They certainly complimented one another, but who gets credit for that?

Boy, Leetch was sure "lucky" to have guys like Randy Moller, an archaic Ron greschner, Mark Hardy, Milo Horava and a one-legged Norman Rochefort. Patrick was an uber-liability defensively and was booed incessantly by his own fans.

The teammate excuse might work if you knew what you were talking about.

As for Bourque, Glen Wesley and Don Sweeney struggled as youngsters (as did Zubov) but both later developed into solid top-4 dmen, with Sweeney becoming one of the better positional dmen in the league and rarely was paired with Bourque until later. IIRC Sweeney was on the second pairing and exclusively played the left side.

Bourque had the "misfortune" of being paired with Brad McCrimmon, Brad Park, and Gord Kluzak, who in 1988 were arguably the best pairing in the league.

In his later years, Bourque was paired with McClaren and Gill, who both went on to have very solid NHL careers well after Bourque left Boston.

How about the defensive-minded or two-way forwards Bourque had the luxury of playing with? How about Oates and Kaspar and Poulin and Reid and Donato and Krusher and Bob Sweeney and Bobby Carpenter?

The Bruins were from top-to-bottom a defense-oriented team. This isn't a debate. The Garden ice surface was smaller than all rinks (except the Aud I think) and Sinden designed teams to play a suffocating, in-your-face style.


Don't know what I'm talking about except the fact that what this is about Lidstrom's partners. Something, that despite this large post, you didn't touch with a 10' pole because you KNOW you got nothing.

Make excuses, downplay it till you're blue in the face. It doesn't matter, there is no argument or comparison where Bourque, during his 20 seasons in Boston, doesn't end up as the lowest man on the totem pole vs Chelios, Leetch and especially Lidstrom in so far as support and D partners.
 

Big Phil

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Leetch played with Zubov for a season and a half and never together at ES. In the three seasons before Zubov and Beukeboom arrived, Leetch won a Calder, set a rookie dman goal record and was a 2nd Team all star.

Patrick was terrible defensively and never paired with Leetch. Both Bergeron and Neilson tried to and it didn't work.

And Beukeboom was redundant. He was a big hitter and a pylon. He was a nobody until he came to the Rangers and even on the Rangers he was far from someone you would say "wow Leetch is lucky to play with that guy". They certainly complimented one another, but who gets credit for that?

Boy, Leetch was sure "lucky" to have guys like Randy Moller, an archaic Ron greschner, Mark Hardy, Milo Horava and a one-legged Norman Rochefort. Patrick was an uber-liability defensively and was booed incessantly by his own fans.

The teammate excuse might work if you knew what you were talking about.

As for Bourque, Glen Wesley and Don Sweeney struggled as youngsters (as did Zubov) but both later developed into solid top-4 dmen, with Sweeney becoming one of the better positional dmen in the league and rarely was paired with Bourque until later. IIRC Sweeney was on the second pairing and exclusively played the left side.

Bourque had the "misfortune" of being paired with Brad McCrimmon, Brad Park, and Gord Kluzak, who in 1988 were arguably the best pairing in the league.

In his later years, Bourque was paired with McClaren and Gill, who both went on to have very solid NHL careers well after Bourque left Boston.

How about the defensive-minded or two-way forwards Bourque had the luxury of playing with? How about Oates and Kaspar and Poulin and Reid and Donato and Krusher and Bob Sweeney and Bobby Carpenter?

The Bruins were from top-to-bottom a defense-oriented team. This isn't a debate. The Garden ice surface was smaller than all rinks (except the Aud I think) and Sinden designed teams to play a suffocating, in-your-face style.

I have seen a lot of things on these boards, but acting as if Hal Gill and Kyle McClaren are players that Ray Bourque should have been lucky to play with are enough to give me a stroke. The fact that he played with Gord Kluzak in 1988 and it being said to be a bonus for Bourque topped it off.

Alright, Bourque had an older Park on the Bruins that I am sure taught him some nice things. However, Park was gone after 1983. Park cannot control what Bourque does then, only Bourque can. And if Park was a mentor to him, I think we should realize that Bourque did well for himself since he surpassed the career of his mentor.

Honestly, all of this stuff is overrated about how much help a defenseman had from fellow defensemen when his career started. Denis Potvin went his whole career without playing with a HHOF defenseman. It was all him. Leetch never really had a mentor either. Messier wasn't even there yet when he won the Calder and was a second team all-star in 1991. Robinson of course would have had Lapointe and Savard. Lidstrom had Coffey hanging around. Coffey didn't have a defenseman but had Gretzky. Chelios had Robinson early on. Harvey had Bouchard. Kelly had no one on defense when he started really. Shore had Dit Clapper if you want to count him, but he wasn't a defenseman at that time. Furthermore, Fetisov had Kasatonov to balance things out, Pilote could pass to Bobby Hull and had a good defensive core in Chicago, Pronger had MacInnis, MacInnis and Suter leaned on each other, Niedermayer had Stevens, Stevens probably learned a lot from Langway and Murphy. Murphy had no one. Langway had the "Big 3" on defense.

See what I did here? No matter how you spin it, there was always someone around for someone else. The one in the worst position to start off as far as defensemen would have been Leetch and Pilote and Kelly. Some of the greatest all-time. They did alright for themselves right? Oh, and while we're at it, Orr had who on defense? Ted Green? Hmmm. He worked out just fine didn't he? I'm pretty sure Ted Green wasn't showing Orr how to skate end to end.

I guess my point is that these guys have to be great on their own. Especially playing the most complicated position of defense. A mentor here and there helps them, but they are on their own when someone like Mario Lemieux is bearing down on them. They still have to do it themselves and carve their own career.

It is silly saying things such as "Well Bourque had Park to show him the ropes early in his career." Yeah, so much that the rookie finished 1st team all-star in the NHL over the wily vet with the great career? I'm going to say that Bourque had the career he had because of..........Bourque.
 

Dark Shadows

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How many pages do we have to go until somebody tells my why Bourque visably underperformed defensively between the 1991 CF and his final series as a Bruin?
Because the Bruins were largely a one line team, playing from behind, forcing him to try to offensively get more going? And numerous other factors. Bourque was the sort of guy who did not miss many games if he was walking wounded, even if he probably should have.

He had numerous knee injuries, which spilled over to affect his hips, groin, ankles and other body parts when you compensate by skating on an injured knee instead of resting like most athletes do today to avoid aggravating injuries. He had somewhere in the realm of 7-8 lower body injuries between 83-89, most were his knee. He was a near iron man despite these injuries.

Nevermind that in 91/92, his middle finger had a compound fracture from a slash right before the playoffs started(Shayne Corson took a baseball swing at his hand) and he had to wear a cast that seriously hampered his ability to grip his stick, and he had to get injections to numb it.

He had both back and ankle injuries in 92-93 throughout the year.
In 93-94 he blew out his knee right before the playoffs at the end of march and forced himself to play the playoffs, despite not being recovered.

And on and on. He was not a young man by this point, and these injuries add up. You once went on a big campaign for your favorite player Leetch's being a better performer, but hated that he did not even help his team get to the playoffs between the ages of 29-35 when he was traded to a playoff team.

But generally in that timeframe, if Oates was not on the ice and Bourque was, Boston's less than stellar depth on the 2nd and 3rd lines were scored on much more than they scored. Teams devised strategies specifically to nullify Bourque because the forwards were not a scoring threat, so it was not simply a matter of being able to split the attention. Lidstrom could easily pas to his defensive partner or numerous hall of fame two way forwards and expect something to happen even if he did not get into the play, and teams did not focus on shutting Lidstrom down like they did Bourque because they had bigger forward scoring threats to worry about. You don't shut down the supporting offense type defenseman, you try to shut down the people he is making those first passes to. In Bourque's case, teams wanted him to make those first passes and then backcheck on him like he was a forward because you are better off with anyone else carrying the puck than Bourque against you.

Nobody was out there saying "Hey, we have to devise a plan to stop Vlad Ruzicka, Stephen Leach, Ted Donato!" in 93. It was "Force Bourque to pass to Sweeney or one of those 3, and then obstruct and shadow him so he cannot get back into the play"

As the decade wore on, the secondary scoring got even worse than that. Heck, the primary scoring became Oates, Donato and Shawn McEachern. It was a trainwreck. Once Oates left, Josef Stumple was the highest scoring player. The defensive side of the teams were just as bad, if not worse in those years.


How about somebody explain why Bourque underperformed defensively between 1984 and 1987. These were Norris-trophy regular seasons?

Why? Why the dropoff in production?

84? Nobody on the team was getting anything going. Bourque tied for team lead in scoring with a whole 2 points in 3 games and was -2. 100+ point scorer Middleton was 0 points with -4 and he was widely considered one of the best defensive forwards in the league(Almost won the selke that year). 116 point Pederson had a point in 3 games. Why are you not busting their chops?

Bourque was minus 2 with 2 points. The bruins were outscored 10 goals to 2 in that 3 game series.

1985 I am assuming you don't care that he hurt his knee yet again this season near playoff time. Sure he only had 3 points in 5 games and was +1. The Habs scored 3, 4, 5 and 6 goals in the first 4 games of the series. The final game was a nailbiting 1 goal game.

1986. 0 points in 3 games and =/- 0. Patrick Roy won the Smythe for a reason this year. The Bruins scoring this playoff was not there. Not Bourque, not Pederson, not Rat Linesman, not Charlie Simmer. Except Randy Burridge. The team was collectively -16.

1986-87: Swept by the habs. Bourque had a goal and 2 assists and was -1. Given that Montreal scored nearly twice as many goals as Boston, and the team was a collective -45, I am not sure why you are singling him out here.


I watched all those games and rewatched them again.

What did I see? I saw a guy who looked tired, was overused and had difficulty with his gap control and reading rushes to the outside?

I saw a guy who was overcommitting and losing puck battles, making poor pinches.
Team problem? Not the one-on-one battles he lost with alarming regularity come Spring, or the lapses in coverage. That's an individual issue.
And if Bourque was gassed come playoff time, then that's a knock on Bourque. That's an individual issue.

If he had the inner fortitude to play like an ageless lion in 2001, why couldn't he do they same when he was 10 years younger?

I rarely if ever saw Lidstrom struggle with the basic tenets of defending once he established himself as the No. 1 on Detroit, which lasted over a decade.

Sorry if I key in on Bourque. Can't erase from memory what I physically saw.
I watched too. You either have a vendetta, or you need your eyes examined.

Judging by the selective stat picking and focus on only years you think do not measure up, it's a vendetta. You can selectively pick out years anyone played and stat rip them to pieces just as easily if you do not get into the context.
 

Steve Kournianos

@thedraftanalyst
I have seen a lot of things on these boards, but acting as if Hal Gill and Kyle McClaren are players that Ray Bourque should have been lucky to play with are enough to give me a stroke. The fact that he played with Gord Kluzak in 1988 and it being said to be a bonus for Bourque topped it off.

Alright, Bourque had an older Park on the Bruins that I am sure taught him some nice things. However, Park was gone after 1983. Park cannot control what Bourque does then, only Bourque can. And if Park was a mentor to him, I think we should realize that Bourque did well for himself since he surpassed the career of his mentor.

Honestly, all of this stuff is overrated about how much help a defenseman had from fellow defensemen when his career started. Denis Potvin went his whole career without playing with a HHOF defenseman. It was all him. Leetch never really had a mentor either. Messier wasn't even there yet when he won the Calder and was a second team all-star in 1991. Robinson of course would have had Lapointe and Savard. Lidstrom had Coffey hanging around. Coffey didn't have a defenseman but had Gretzky. Chelios had Robinson early on. Harvey had Bouchard. Kelly had no one on defense when he started really. Shore had Dit Clapper if you want to count him, but he wasn't a defenseman at that time. Furthermore, Fetisov had Kasatonov to balance things out, Pilote could pass to Bobby Hull and had a good defensive core in Chicago, Pronger had MacInnis, MacInnis and Suter leaned on each other, Niedermayer had Stevens, Stevens probably learned a lot from Langway and Murphy. Murphy had no one. Langway had the "Big 3" on defense.

See what I did here? No matter how you spin it, there was always someone around for someone else. The one in the worst position to start off as far as defensemen would have been Leetch and Pilote and Kelly. Some of the greatest all-time. They did alright for themselves right? Oh, and while we're at it, Orr had who on defense? Ted Green? Hmmm. He worked out just fine didn't he? I'm pretty sure Ted Green wasn't showing Orr how to skate end to end.

I guess my point is that these guys have to be great on their own. Especially playing the most complicated position of defense. A mentor here and there helps them, but they are on their own when someone like Mario Lemieux is bearing down on them. They still have to do it themselves and carve their own career.

It is silly saying things such as "Well Bourque had Park to show him the ropes early in his career." Yeah, so much that the rookie finished 1st team all-star in the NHL over the wily vet with the great career? I'm going to say that Bourque had the career he had because of..........Bourque.

Wasn't saying Bourque was lucky to have the as partners. Was clearly stating the Bourque's partners were not slouches, while Leetch and Chelios certainly had their fair share of marginal partners.

Kluzak was excellent in 1988, come on man. Guy had a monster postseason in so many ways.

But I agree that partners on defense is just a strawman argument. If Bourque played his entire career with Chelios as his partner, you can argue that he would suffer statistically.
 

Filatov2Kovalev2Bonk

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AND that being said, both Chelios and Leetch had a hell of a lot more help and support than Bourque did.
Chelios had Suter, Smith and Marchment sharing the load.
Leetch had Zubov, Patrick and Beukeboom.
Bourque had...?

If I remember as I was an avid Habs fan then...Don (?) Sweeney, Garry Galley, Glen Wesley...and I forget a few others. Nothing extraordinary here, just good "D" partners that weren't ever on Raymond's level.

Going to have to go Bourque, Lidstrom, Coffey, Stevens as my list. You can flip a coin over Bourque/Lidstrom, of course, but Ray had less run support for a good portion of his career.
 

Steve Kournianos

@thedraftanalyst
Because the Bruins were largely a one line team, playing from behind, forcing him to try to offensively get more going? And numerous other factors. Bourque was the sort of guy who did not miss many games if he was walking wounded, even if he probably should have.

He had numerous knee injuries, which spilled over to affect his hips, groin, ankles and other body parts when you compensate by skating on an injured knee instead of resting like most athletes do today to avoid aggravating injuries. He had somewhere in the realm of 7-8 lower body injuries between 83-89, most were his knee. He was a near iron man despite these injuries.

Nevermind that in 91/92, his middle finger had a compound fracture from a slash right before the playoffs started(Shayne Corson took a baseball swing at his hand) and he had to wear a cast that seriously hampered his ability to grip his stick, and he had to get injections to numb it.

He had both back and ankle injuries in 92-93 throughout the year.
In 93-94 he blew out his knee right before the playoffs at the end of march and forced himself to play the playoffs, despite not being recovered.

And on and on. He was not a young man by this point, and these injuries add up. You once went on a big campaign for your favorite player Leetch's being a better performer, but hated that he did not even help his team get to the playoffs between the ages of 29-35 when he was traded to a playoff team.

But generally in that timeframe, if Oates was not on the ice and Bourque was, Boston's less than stellar depth on the 2nd and 3rd lines were scored on much more than they scored. Teams devised strategies specifically to nullify Bourque because the forwards were not a scoring threat, so it was not simply a matter of being able to split the attention. Lidstrom could easily pas to his defensive partner or numerous hall of fame two way forwards and expect something to happen even if he did not get into the play, and teams did not focus on shutting Lidstrom down like they did Bourque because they had bigger forward scoring threats to worry about. You don't shut down the supporting offense type defenseman, you try to shut down the people he is making those first passes to. In Bourque's case, teams wanted him to make those first passes and then backcheck on him like he was a forward because you are better off with anyone else carrying the puck than Bourque against you.

Nobody was out there saying "Hey, we have to devise a plan to stop Vlad Ruzicka, Stephen Leach, Ted Donato!" in 93. It was "Force Bourque to pass to Sweeney or one of those 3, and then obstruct and shadow him so he cannot get back into the play"

As the decade wore on, the secondary scoring got even worse than that. Heck, the primary scoring became Oates, Donato and Shawn McEachern. It was a trainwreck. Once Oates left, Josef Stumple was the highest scoring player. The defensive side of the teams were just as bad, if not worse in those years.




84? Nobody on the team was getting anything going. Bourque tied for team lead in scoring with a whole 2 points in 3 games and was -2. 100+ point scorer Middleton was 0 points with -4 and he was widely considered one of the best defensive forwards in the league(Almost won the selke that year). 116 point Pederson had a point in 3 games. Why are you not busting their chops?

Bourque was minus 2 with 2 points. The bruins were outscored 10 goals to 2 in that 3 game series.

1985 I am assuming you don't care that he hurt his knee yet again this season near playoff time. Sure he only had 3 points in 5 games and was +1. The Habs scored 3, 4, 5 and 6 goals in the first 4 games of the series. The final game was a nailbiting 1 goal game.

1986. 0 points in 3 games and =/- 0. Patrick Roy won the Smythe for a reason this year. The Bruins scoring this playoff was not there. Not Bourque, not Pederson, not Rat Linesman, not Charlie Simmer. Except Randy Burridge. The team was collectively -16.

1986-87: Swept by the habs. Bourque had a goal and 2 assists and was -1. Given that Montreal scored nearly twice as many goals as Boston, and the team was a collective -45, I am not sure why you are singling him out here.



I watched too. You either have a vendetta, or you need your eyes examined.

Judging by the selective stat picking and focus on only years you think do not measure up, it's a vendetta. You can selectively pick out years anyone played and stat rip them to pieces just as easily if you do not get into the context.

Staying healthy is a key component of being a consistent playoff performer, as is seamless production despite injury.

You typed a whole lot of excuses centered on injuries. Why didn't those injuries impact him the last week of the respective regular seasons.

And I never said Leetch was better than Bourque. I said Bourque never had a postseason like Leetch had in 1994.

You know, the one Leetch had a separated shoulder he had frozen before every playoff game, and a steel plate in an ankle he broke 14 months earlier?

Excuses are like, well you know how the saying goes.

Good to see Lidstrom doesn't need excuses. That's why he had the better career.
 

Steve Kournianos

@thedraftanalyst
Don't know what I'm talking about except the fact that what this is about Lidstrom's partners. Something, that despite this large post, you didn't touch with a 10' pole because you KNOW you got nothing.

Make excuses, downplay it till you're blue in the face. It doesn't matter, there is no argument or comparison where Bourque, during his 20 seasons in Boston, doesn't end up as the lowest man on the totem pole vs Chelios, Leetch and especially Lidstrom in so far as support and D partners.


Ok, I'll play along.

Bourque needed a strong supporting cast to significantly succeed in the postseason.

Lidstrom did not, proven in 2008 and 2009.
 

Wrath

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Wasn't saying Bourque was lucky to have the as partners. Was clearly stating the Bourque's partners were not slouches, while Leetch and Chelios certainly had their fair share of marginal partners.

Kluzak was excellent in 1988, come on man. Guy had a monster postseason in so many ways.

But I agree that partners on defense is just a strawman argument. If Bourque played his entire career with Chelios as his partner, you can argue that he would suffer statistically.

Oh, I see what you're saying.


Bourque's partners weren't that bad.

If Bourque had better partners his stats would be worse.


Thus Bourque's impressive stats would be even more impressive if he had worse partners!

Bourque with his okay partners was beating out inflated stat Chelios/Leetch for Norrises!



Obviously I'm kidding, but only sort of. You're double dipping by punishing Bourque for having "good partners" and not succeeding in terms of winning the cup then you're rewarding Lidstrom for standing out individually despite having "good partners".
 

Dark Shadows

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Staying healthy is a key component of being a consistent playoff performer, as is seamless production despite injury.

You typed a whole lot of excuses centered on injuries. Why didn't those injuries impact him the last week of the respective regular seasons.

And I never said Leetch was better than Bourque. I said Bourque never had a postseason like Leetch had in 1994.

You know, the one Leetch had a separated shoulder he had frozen before every playoff game, and a steel plate in an ankle he broke 14 months earlier?

Excuses are like, well you know how the saying goes.

Good to see Lidstrom doesn't need excuses. That's why he had the better career.
Good to see some people still try to ignore responding to people's points by generalizing the post.

If you had bothered to look, you would have seen that those injuries DID impact him at the end of the regular season. In fact, in some cases, he sat out the rest of the regular season until the playoffs and forced himself to play walking wounded.

But then, you didn't look. You just responded in a short a way possible when someone debunks your argument:handclap:.
 

Dark Shadows

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Ok, I'll play along.

Bourque needed a strong supporting cast to significantly succeed in the postseason.

Lidstrom did not, proven in 2008 and 2009.

?
This is confusing. The Wings were one of the top favorite contenders in the league in those years, with oddles of depth and talent. In 2008, 2 players top 10 in Norris voting, 3 players in the top 10 of Hart voting, their two best forwards placed not only 2nd and 3rd in their respective positions, defining them as Elite, but both were 1st and 3rd for the Selke trophy as well and both were two of the top scorers in the league.

They won the presidents trophy, were 3rd highest scoring in the league and had the lowest goals against.

That team was stacked compared to the rest of the league.
 

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,394
15,463
Didn't Lidstrom beat Bourque in Norris voting every year after Lidstrom's hit his prime? Wasn't it like for five years?

I'd double check but I'm pretty sure.

Here's the voting results for the portion of their careers that overlapped. Note that any time they received fewer than 5% of the maximum number of votes, I'm designating it as a "trivial" ranking:

1992: Bourque 2nd, Lidstrom no votes
1993: Bourque 2nd, Lidstrom no votes
1994: Bourque 1st, Lidstrom 8th (trivial)
1995: Bourque 3rd, Lidstrom no votes
1996: Bourque 2nd, Lidstrom 6th (trivial)
1997: Lidstrom 6th (trivial), Bourque 7th (trivial)
1998: Lidstrom 2nd, Bourque 7th (trivial)
1999: Lidstorm 2nd, Bourque 3rd
2000: Lidstrom 2nd, Bouruque 7th (trivial)
2001: Lidstrom 1st, Bourque 2nd

Bourque was clearly ahead from 1992 to 1996 - but this doesn't mean much, as the Bruin was in his late prime (ages 31 to 35), and the Red Wing was still developing (ages 21 to 25).

1997 was a write-off for both of them - Lidstrom was rapidly improving and Bourque was finally starting to decline.

From 1998 onward, Lidstrom was clearly ahead - but again I don't think this means much as the Canadian was past his prime (ages 37 to 40) while the Swede was entering his (ages 27 to 30).

People are free to analyze the raw data, but I'm not sure if it's useful for comparing the two players given the differences in age & stage of career.
 
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Steve Kournianos

@thedraftanalyst
?
This is confusing. The Wings were one of the top favorite contenders in the league in those years, with oddles of depth and talent. In 2008, 2 players top 10 in Norris voting, 3 players in the top 10 of Hart voting, their two best forwards placed not only 2nd and 3rd in their respective positions, defining them as Elite, but both were 1st and 3rd for the Selke trophy as well and both were two of the top scorers in the league.

They won the presidents trophy, were 3rd highest scoring in the league and had the lowest goals against.

That team was stacked compared to the rest of the league.

Funny how you're not mentioning names because they double up lol, or include Lidstrom LOL!

Datsyuk, Zetterberg. Rafalski. Lidstrom, Osgood

Vs

Oates, Neely, Bourque, Juneau, Sweeney, Poulin, Moog

The 1993 Bruins won 50+ games. And that was without a shootout. 2nd best record in the NHL.

Oates was 4th in Hart voting, 10th in Selke.

Poulin was Selke runner up.

Juneau was Calder runner up

Moog was 5th in Vezina.

Sweeney was 13th in Dman AS voting.

Neely was medically cleared in February and was in the postseason lineup all four games. He scored 50 goals the following season. Neely scored 15 goals in 22 games that season.
 

Steve Kournianos

@thedraftanalyst
Good to see some people still try to ignore responding to people's points by generalizing the post.

If you had bothered to look, you would have seen that those injuries DID impact him at the end of the regular season. In fact, in some cases, he sat out the rest of the regular season until the playoffs and forced himself to play walking wounded.

But then, you didn't look. You just responded in a short a way possible when someone debunks your argument:handclap:.

Wait a minute? You said Bourque was "superhuman" and played through pain, but now he needed to rest before the postseason?

What was he? A closer in baseball?

A lot of good that late-season rest did him and the Bruins!
 

plusandminus

Registered User
Mar 7, 2011
1,411
269
Good to see some people still try to ignore responding to people's points by generalizing the post.

If you had bothered to look, you would have seen that those injuries DID impact him at the end of the regular season. In fact, in some cases, he sat out the rest of the regular season until the playoffs and forced himself to play walking wounded.

But then, you didn't look. You just responded in a short a way possible when someone debunks your argument:handclap:.

I think I'm fairly objective on this subject.
Maybe you could direct me/us to some full game videos (or long sequences) where one can notice Bourque at his best both offensively and defensively.
(I have the age but rarely got to watch NHL games as they took place. And in international tournaments, I think rather guys like Coffey, Kasatonov and Fetisov were better than Bourque. Even in the 1987 Canada Cup finals I think so.)

I think I made some fairly accurate posts during the last couple of days, trying to inspire more detached(?) reasoning, but instread it is as if this is a thread for polarization. I just wish the discussions could aim more at learning and finding common agreements instead of people writing about how stupid those not agreeing are.
(Sorry for potentially bad English.)

I also don't get the reasoning that Bourque had poor teammates. The defencemen weren't exactly top level, but the forwards were good. Wasn't Steve Kasper the guy that Gretzky at a time regarded as the best defensive forward in the league (I may mix him up)? Didn't guys like Neely and Courtnall provide plenty of goals/offense? Linseman scored lots of points too, while getting Selke votes. Janney seemed to be an offensive success basically from the beginning. And so on...

Is it so certain that being the by far best defenceman on a team is bad for your stats? If you guys think about how +/- works, the average of the forwards on the team, and the average of the defencemen on the team, is basically even. So if one defenceman is better than the others on the team, while the forwards are being more evenly skilled, the defenceman will stand out. (Again, +/- can be deceptive.) Is it so certain that being THE best offensive defenceman on the team, on which much of the team's offensive play will be based, will hurt ones point production? Isn't it just a lot of speculation regarding who was more favoured than the other?

I don't want to re-write what I wrote in my previous posts, but nobody so far seem to even consider that Bourque did NOT compete with all the best players (Kasatonov, Fetisov...), while Lidstrom did. Nobody seems to notice that Detroit weren't very competitive before Lidstrom entered the league, just to become the best team during a 20 year period. Lidstrom during that time won 7(!) Norris', some seasons lead the whole league in icetime, three times he had the best +/- of all defencemen. He was the best, what more could be asked of him in an era where the difference between the best players and the average-to-replacement players seems considerably less than when Bourque played in the 80s. (And there is probably a bias. Some people look at Bourque's numbers and think they look much better than Lidstrom, without putting things enough into context.)

If Bourque was such a super defenceman, he surely should have been able to win more Norris Trophies, but there usually was someone considered better than him.
And there surely should be videos of him online where he excells?
 

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