Confirmed with Link: Rangers name Alain Vigneault head coach - Part II

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:laugh:

Yeah, i am making **** up just to spite you.
Or maybe it's based on what i read or what i see.
You love to dramatize things, not really sure why.

I have no idea why you are making these baseless claims. I never insinuated you were "making **** up just to spite [me]." Just that you may be making **** up to bolster your weak argument. People tend to do that and I thought it was pretty logical that someone would do it on this occasion.

What have you "read or see[n]" of Rundblad to suggest that he is somehow a superior player to McBain? I can't imagine witnessing him would bring you to that conclusion since it's pretty clear that the two are fairly far apart when it comes to the defensive game. Rundblad may seem to have prettier offensive skills, but so far that has yet to translate to the actual scoreboard.

I'm ot the one dramatizing things here. I'm the one being realistic.
 
A lot of that is exaggerated. I didn't hear anyone complain about collapsing the forwards last year and I don't hear anyone criticizing Julien for doing it. A lot of the breakouts, loose puck battles, and power play issues lie directly on the players and even more of it is just the way the game is. The Bruins and Blackhawks are dumping it in A LOT. But around these boards you get a lot of people saying, "he stinks, he has them dump the puck in." Jagr, Straka, and Nylander aren't here anymore so we're not going to see the tic tac toe passing through the neutral zone.

The most hilarious thing I read around here is when somone rips him for telling players to use the boards to get the puck up the ice. As if that's bad coaching.

Difference of opinion then. You don't think Torts deserves any of the blame. I do.
 
The Bruins got hot. You can't say they're not a juggernaut right now. They swept the Penguins and held them to two goals. That's pretty amazing.

I understand the Bruins got hot I live in New England and the question all season was would they be able to flip the switch come playoff time...

my question was after they closed out the series against the Leafs after blowing a 3-1? lead in the series did you think at that time they were unstoppable playing going into the Rangers series playing 3 rookie dmen?
 
Difference of opinion then. You don't think Torts deserves any of the blame. I do.

Agree to disagree. Last year was one of the best seasons in a long while. The #1 seed, the ECF appearance, and Lundqvist's Vezina all had a lot to do with what he implemented. I can't turn around and rip him a year later after making it out of the first round and losing to a better team.
 
I understand the Bruins got hot I live in New England and the question all season was would they be able to flip the switch come playoff time...

my question was after they closed out the series against the Leafs after blowing a 3-1? lead in the series did you think at that time they were unstoppable playing going into the Rangers series playing 3 rookie dmen?

Momentum is a hell of a drug.
 
I understand the Bruins got hot I live in New England and the question all season was would they be able to flip the switch come playoff time...

my question was after they closed out the series against the Leafs after blowing a 3-1? lead in the series did you think at that time they were unstoppable playing going into the Rangers series playing 3 rookie dmen?

I wasn't that confident going into that series. Yea, they had rookies playing in that series but they still throw Chara out there for half the game and IMO have the best group of two way forwards in the league.
 
Torts was a very good coach. His 24/7 rant between periods of the Rangers-Blues game was classic. If you watched him on Behind The Bench with Bill Pidto,Torts was a different person. If you heard him with Michael Kay or Mike Francesa,same thing. Answered every question. Torts told Pidto about looking to coach college hockey someday because he wanted to help mold young men.The team needed a change. The players got sick of him. Pro sports.



I hope Torts get the Canuck or Stars job.


what does this prove? Tortorella did some good things. very good coach? no, not quite imo. very good coaches, develop PP and offensive systems. They develop transitional play, They DONT coach one half of the ice, having their players collapse like bowling pins, getting hemmed in for minutes at a time...

couldn't evolve... no progress...
 
I have no idea why you are making these baseless claims. I never insinuated you were "making **** up just to spite [me]." Just that you may be making **** up to bolster your weak argument. People tend to do that and I thought it was pretty logical that someone would do it on this occasion.

What have you "read or see[n]" of Rundblad to suggest that he is somehow a superior player to McBain? I can't imagine witnessing him would bring you to that conclusion since it's pretty clear that the two are fairly far apart when it comes to the defensive game. Rundblad may seem to have prettier offensive skills, but so far that has yet to translate to the actual scoreboard.

I'm ot the one dramatizing things here. I'm the one being realistic.

You seemed to have answered your own question, but let me expand.
Rundblad looks better with the puck on his stick than does McBain.
Rundblad is a better distributor of the puck than McBain is. Rundblad has the heavier, more accurate shot.
Watching the 2, I don't think there is any debate that Rundblad has the better offensive skillset.
Watching Rundblad you can guess at tantalizing offensive potential that has not been fulfilled yet. Will he ever reach it? maybe not, but it's worth a try.
McBain is pretty good offensively, but watching him with the puck, i don't get the same sense of untapped potential.

Obviously, McBain has an NHL record that Rundblad has not touched yet, it doesn't take a way from the fact that i think Rundblad has the better offensive skillset.

There are plenty of scouting reports on both players, i am going to copy and paste the scouting report from HF, it seems to be your favorite. :p:
Rundblad:
Rundblad is an offensive minded defenseman with good size and excellent skills. He has good vision and carries the puck with confidence. A top notch player on the power-play, Rundblad’s best attribute is his ability to distribute the puck quickly and efficiently while also being able to launch a hard point shot. Rundblad's defensive game remains a work in progress and must continue to improve.

McBain
McBain is an offensive defenseman with decent size. He has good puck handling skills and a good sense of where the puck needs to be. Though not particularly physical, he defends well for an offense-first player and is positionally sound and responsible in all areas of the rink. Plays a disciplined game and rarely takes penalties due to being out of position.
 
You seemed to have answered your own question, but let me expand.
Rundblad looks better with the puck on his stick than does McBain.
Rundblad is a better distributor of the puck than McBain is. Rundblad has the heavier, more accurate shot.
Watching the 2, I don't think there is any debate that Rundblad has the better offensive skillset.
Watching Rundblad you can guess at tantalizing offensive potential that has not been fulfilled yet. Will he ever reach it? maybe not, but it's worth a try.
McBain is pretty good offensively, but watching him with the puck, i don't get the same sense of untapped potential.

Cool story and all. But it ignores the fact that Rundblad has never really put his "skills" onto the scoreboard. A lot of that has to do with how vomit-inducing he is on the defensive side of the game.

Frankly, their shots are about even. Rundblad is a more creative player, playmaking wise. I don't think Rundblad is world's better offensively. I think he is possibly a bit more skilled, but that doesn't really mean all that much.

I didn't answer my own question since Rundblad may be more skilled, but he clearly doesn't think the game as well as McBain. You can have all the skills in the world but won't be as effective if you are not hockey-smart. Rundblad's problems stem from his defensive game and between the ears. He's a skilled player offensively, but his lack of smarts and defensive game bring him down overall.

Obviously, McBain has an NHL record that Rundblad has not touched yet, it doesn't take a way from the fact that i think Rundblad has the better offensive skillset.

There are plenty of scouting reports on both players, i am going to copy and paste the scouting report from HF, it seems to be your favorite. :p:
Rundblad:


McBain

What in the world do years-old scouting reports have to do with anything?
 
Agree to disagree. Last year was one of the best seasons in a long while. The #1 seed, the ECF appearance, and Lundqvist's Vezina all had a lot to do with what he implemented. I can't turn around and rip him a year later after making it out of the first round and losing to a better team.

I understand what you're saying. I just feel that what worked the year before didn't work as well this year, and Torts didn't adjust. Either way, it's moot. Torts is gone. AV is in. Let's hope it works.
 
What, you don't believe what people write for HF?
Shame.

:D

I am going to work, but let me say you are very predictable. :laugh:

If by predictable you mean thoughtful in comparison and not going by outdated scouting reports, you'd be correct. Sorry that I disagree with you and that you haven't presented a shred of logic that would furthr your debate.

Posts like this from you are how one knows that you have nothing left to add and are bowing out.
 
Considering the team lost in the 2nd round, you should be forced to explain yourself - specifically how the Rangers roster matches up against the teams that made the final 4. And how "getting more out of" this roster could've been done, and how it would have led to victories over those teams.

....but your entire point is rooted in fantasyland, so I understand the lack of an explanation.

Consider your entire existence on these boards lacks explanation and deals in absolutes: your opinion is fact and any that defy live in fantasy lands or hyperbole, i think you need to stay out of other conversations unless you yourself have anything substantial to provide to it.

As to the poster i was talking to. Tortorella failed at his job. It doesn't need much explanation. Your clinging on to something. The players wanted him gone. The organization clearly wanted him gone. He is gone. He failed to adjust in games. He shortened his bench. He threw his players under the bus. He got a lot out of the 2011-2012 roster. The 2013 roster wasn't the 2011-12 roster. Different players. Different skill sets. No adjustments made. Power Play was inexcusable. He didn't run the Power Play. That's an easy excuse to hide behind. He's the head coach. Run your staff.

Clearly the players and the organization feel there is more potential here and Tortorella was not the man to bring it out. The change was made. Or, am i living in fantasy land: http://m.espn.go.com/general/story?storyId=9322234&city=newyork&src=desktop wait i guess im not in a fantasy land.

Brassard, Stepan, Nash, Callahan, McDonagh, Moore, Stralman, Zuccarello, Del Zotto. There is talent on the roster. Kreider, Hagelin, Miller, Staal, there is some untapped offensive potential on the roster.

A good coach will recognize strengths and weaknesses of individual players and figure out how to maximize their strengths and attempt to mask their weaknesses. Systems, set plays, lines, matchups, players' roles. All factor into it.

Tortorella sucked the life out of this team. He bullied his players. He demoralized them. He sucked the confidence out of a handful of them. The change was needed. It was requested BY THE PLAYERS. Or do their opinions not matter?

Calling Alain Vigneault a "crap shoot" and what ever other nonsense, is just that: nonsense. He wasn't my preference. But he's an outstanding coach. He's had a high level of success in recent years. He's reached Conference Finals, Cup Finals, won divisions, won Presidents Trophies. His resume speaks for itself. He gets his defenders on the attack. He pushes the pace. He doesn't ignore the defensive side of the game. He implements advanced statistics into his decisions. He didn't mess up Hodgeson's back nor did he mis diagnose the injury. That's the team doctors.

You can continue to whine about the move. You can continue to call others "homers" and any other thing you want. That doesn't reflect poorly on them. For one, id like to see who he brings in as his staff. Id like to see how he impacts organizational philosophy. Id like to see the roster changes and to see how training camp goes, before i make indictments on the coach, his staff (that hasn't yet been hired), the roster (that isn't yet put together) before i think about lambasting others.
 
Do you guys ever get tired of putting words in other people's mouths? Of arguing against things I never said?

The question is whether or not Torts deserves part of the blame for this team's failure, or whether it is 100% on the players, as some of you claim.

We need to improve both the roster AND the coach if we want to win it all. That is my position.

Speaking of putting words in people's mouths....

Anyway, I had my problems with Torts. The power play was abysmal and the breakout/neutral zone play needs a ton of work.

But I keep coming back to opinion that the 2011-2012 team overachieved, and the 2012-2013 team finished just about where it should in a season that was completely screwed up and didnt warrant much time for major adjustments. I thought he deserved another shot with a full training camp and settled roster.

Seems like that was Sather's thinking until a few players' feelings were hurt by Torts' abrasiveness - a problem that the 2011-2012 squad didnt seem to have...but thats a different discussion for a different day.

But whats done is done. Torts is gone and Vigneault is likely here. I hope he does well, but I dont think any coach could win a championship with this team as currently constructed.
 
Consider your entire existence on these boards lacks explanation and deals in absolutes: your opinion is fact and any that defy live in fantasy lands or hyperbole, i think you need to stay out of other conversations unless you yourself have anything substantial to provide to it.

As to the poster i was talking to. Tortorella failed at his job. It doesn't need much explanation. Your clinging on to something. The players wanted him gone. The organization clearly wanted him gone. He is gone. He failed to adjust in games. He shortened his bench. He threw his players under the bus. He got a lot out of the 2011-2012 roster. The 2013 roster wasn't the 2011-12 roster. Different players. Different skill sets. No adjustments made. Power Play was inexcusable. He didn't run the Power Play. That's an easy excuse to hide behind. He's the head coach. Run your staff.

Clearly the players and the organization feel there is more potential here and Tortorella was not the man to bring it out. The change was made. Or, am i living in fantasy land: http://m.espn.go.com/general/story?storyId=9322234&city=newyork&src=desktop wait i guess important not in a fantasy land.

Brassard, Stepan, Nash, Callahan, McDonagh, Moore, Stralman, Zuccarello, Del Zotto. There is talent on the roster. Kreider, Hagelin, Miller, Staal, there is some untapped offensive potential on the roster.

A good coach will recognize strengths and weaknesses of individual players and figure out how to maximize their strengths and attempt to mask their weaknesses. Systems, set plays, lines, matchups, players' roles. All factor into it.

Tortorella sucked the life out of this team. He bullied his players. He demoralized them. He sucked the confidence out of a handful of them. The change was needed. It was requested BY THE PLAYERS. Or do their opinions not matter?

Calling Alain Vigneault a "crap shoot" and what ever other nonsense, is just that: nonsense. He wasn't my preference. But he's an outstanding coach. He's had a high level of success in recent years. He's reached Conference Finals, Cup Finals, won divisions, won Presidents Trophies. His resume speaks for itself. He gets his defenders on the attack. He pushes the pace. He doesn't ignore the defensive side of the game. He implements advanced statistics into his decisions. He didn't mess up Hodgeson's back nor did he mis diagnose the injury. That's the team doctors.

You can continue to whine about the move. You can continue to call others "homers" and any other thing you want. That doesn't reflect poorly on them. For one, id like to see who he brings in as his staff. Id like to see how he impacts organizational philosophy. Id like to see the roster changes and to see how training camp goes, before i make indictments on the coach, his staff (that hasn't yet been hired), the roster (that isn't yet put together) before i think about lambasting others.

brilliant. there is no rebuttal to this.

it's time to let the masses sail away into the sea of self delusion....
 
I just don't see how you can call Tortorella a failure and then turn around and call Vigneault an "outstanding" coach.
 
I just don't see how you can call Tortorella a failure and then turn around and call Vigneault an "outstanding" coach.

Because neither has anything to do with each other? Here, let's qualify this further.

Tortorella was a failure here, in the end.
Ultimately, Vigneault was a failure in Vancouver.

Tortorella is an outstanding coach.
Vigneault is an outstanding coach.

Do you see how those two sets of statements differ from each other?
 
I just don't see how you can call Tortorella a failure and then turn around and call Vigneault an "outstanding" coach.

I didn't call him a failure. I said he failed. He failed in 2013. Sather, Gorton, and the rest of management gave him players such as Gaborik, Nash, McDonagh, Stralman, Del Zotto, Moore, Brassard, Stepan...over the course of the few months of 2013 and he couldn't make adjustments or figure out the best way to get more out of them. He couldn't formulate tactics on the Power Play to be more efficient then 5 or so percent in the playoffs?

He was given talented young rookies he couldn't figure out how to use them.

He went to the media to air dirty laundry about his players.

2013 was a failure on his part. The players made their case about it. Management made theirs. And there is a new coach.

I'm sure Tortorella will move on and be a good coach elsewhere.

Vigneault isn't an outstanding coach? Apparently folks paid for their opinions disagree.
 
Consider your entire existence on these boards lacks explanation and deals in absolutes: your opinion is fact and any that defy live in fantasy lands or hyperbole, i think you need to stay out of other conversations unless you yourself have anything substantial to provide to it.

As to the poster i was talking to. Tortorella failed at his job. It doesn't need much explanation. Your clinging on to something. The players wanted him gone. The organization clearly wanted him gone. He is gone. He failed to adjust in games. He shortened his bench. He threw his players under the bus. He got a lot out of the 2011-2012 roster. The 2013 roster wasn't the 2011-12 roster. Different players. Different skill sets. No adjustments made. Power Play was inexcusable. He didn't run the Power Play. That's an easy excuse to hide behind. He's the head coach. Run your staff.

Clearly the players and the organization feel there is more potential here and Tortorella was not the man to bring it out. The change was made. Or, am i living in fantasy land: http://m.espn.go.com/general/story?storyId=9322234&city=newyork&src=desktop wait i guess im not in a fantasy land.

Brassard, Stepan, Nash, Callahan, McDonagh, Moore, Stralman, Zuccarello, Del Zotto. There is talent on the roster. Kreider, Hagelin, Miller, Staal, there is some untapped offensive potential on the roster.

A good coach will recognize strengths and weaknesses of individual players and figure out how to maximize their strengths and attempt to mask their weaknesses. Systems, set plays, lines, matchups, players' roles. All factor into it.

Tortorella sucked the life out of this team. He bullied his players. He demoralized them. He sucked the confidence out of a handful of them. The change was needed. It was requested BY THE PLAYERS. Or do their opinions not matter?

Calling Alain Vigneault a "crap shoot" and what ever other nonsense, is just that: nonsense. He wasn't my preference. But he's an outstanding coach. He's had a high level of success in recent years. He's reached Conference Finals, Cup Finals, won divisions, won Presidents Trophies. His resume speaks for itself. He gets his defenders on the attack. He pushes the pace. He doesn't ignore the defensive side of the game. He implements advanced statistics into his decisions. He didn't mess up Hodgeson's back nor did he mis diagnose the injury. That's the team doctors.

You can continue to whine about the move. You can continue to call others "homers" and any other thing you want. That doesn't reflect poorly on them. For one, id like to see who he brings in as his staff. Id like to see how he impacts organizational philosophy. Id like to see the roster changes and to see how training camp goes, before i make indictments on the coach, his staff (that hasn't yet been hired), the roster (that isn't yet put together) before i think about lambasting others.
Great post. And it is not a post saying Tortorella is a terrible human being as many here have not been saying. He lost the team, he didn't make adjustments. He forced players to be something they are not. It was time to go. Let's give AV a chance.
 
Because neither has anything to do with each other? Here, let's qualify this further.

Tortorella was a failure here, in the end.
Ultimately, Vigneault was a failure in Vancouver.

Tortorella is an outstanding coach.
Vigneault is an outstanding coach.

Do you see how those two sets of statements differ from each other?

You didn't "fail" just because you fell short of winning the cup. If that was the case you couldn't possibly call AV and "outstanding" coach considering he's been a "failure" his whole career based on that definition of the word.

Tortorella didn't "fail" this year. The pucks didn't bounce our way, the players were banged up, and a few guys probably got a little lazy in the offseason. He turned into the scapegoat for all of that. Only one team wins the cup every year.
 
what does this prove? Tortorella did some good things. very good coach? no, not quite imo. very good coaches, develop PP and offensive systems. They develop transitional play, They DONT coach one half of the ice, having their players collapse like bowling pins, getting hemmed in for minutes at a time...

couldn't evolve... no progress...

You must not have watched those three Stanley Cup finals the Devils won. Claude Julien and his Bruins also say hello.

If you didn't like Torts system fine but give the man some respect, he is the only coach to bring the Rangers to the Conference finals since most of the posters on HF have been born.
 
I didn't call him a failure. I said he failed. He failed in 2013. Sather, Gorton, and the rest of management gave him players such as Gaborik, Nash, McDonagh, Stralman, Del Zotto, Moore, Brassard, Stepan...over the course of the few months of 2013 and he couldn't make adjustments or figure out the best way to get more out of them. He couldn't formulate tactics on the Power Play to be more efficient then 5 or so percent in the playoffs?

He was given talented young rookies he couldn't figure out how to use them.

He went to the media to air dirty laundry about his players.

2013 was a failure on his part. The players made their case about it. Management made theirs. And there is a new coach.

I'm sure Tortorella will move on and be a good coach elsewhere.

Vigneault isn't an outstanding coach? Apparently folks paid for their opinions disagree.


1. What adjustments specifically? If you're going to criticize him for not doing something, you have to know what it is. "Adjustments" is just another broad term just like "open it up.

2. The talented young rookies weren't any good. They weren't any good in the AHL either. They're still prospects.
 
As to the poster i was talking to. Tortorella failed at his job. It doesn't need much explanation. Your clinging on to something. The players wanted him gone. The organization clearly wanted him gone. He is gone. He failed to adjust in games. He shortened his bench. He threw his players under the bus. He got a lot out of the 2011-2012 roster. The 2013 roster wasn't the 2011-12 roster. Different players. Different skill sets.

Are you parroting Glen Sather with the 'failed' part? Because 29 coaches 'fail' every year and do not necessarily get fired. Sather has failed EVERY SEASON. The players did not want him gone. It appears as though SOME players wanted him gone, but what do we really know besides what journalists tell us. The organization did NOT clearly want him gone, because they extended him this year. Also, Torts didn't screw up the roster that was his boss.

Brassard, Stepan, Nash, Callahan, McDonagh, Moore, Stralman, Zuccarello, Del Zotto. There is talent on the roster. Kreider, Hagelin, Miller, Staal, there is some untapped offensive potential on the roster.

Bergeron, Kreicji, Lucic, Horton, Chara, Krug, Seidenberg, Marchand, Hamilton. The Rangers do not stack up against the top teams talent wise. Their success last year was a product of their hard work and goalie. Just because there is a new coach does not mean the Rangers will become the 1987 Oilers.

Tortorella sucked the life out of this team. He bullied his players. He demoralized them. He sucked the confidence out of a handful of them. The change was needed. It was requested BY THE PLAYERS. Or do their opinions not matter?

Is this the playground? Demoralized? Did he march them naked through Times Square or something? Hes the coach he's supposed to keep them in line. Every time I heard a player talk about Torts they appreciated his honesty. Sometimes the truth hurts when you're not playing well. Again, I try not to make generalizations like "the players wanted him gone" because we can't prove that. We can only prove that SOME players were unhappy.

I'm not living in the past, Torts is gone. I was against the move but I'm a Rangers fan not a Torts fan and I hope AV wins a cup. I'm not splitting hairs here but I'm tired of reading all this revisionist history and grass is greener nonsense because I don't expect very much to change next year. The Rangers are a good team already. They will be a good team next year. Drawing conclusions from half a season with no training camp, half of a new roster, and no Staal for most of the year is absurd to me.
 
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