Proposal: Rangers - Ducks

[LeetchisGod]

Fowler simply doesn't fit a need for us.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

The worst thing anyone has said about him is he's a top-4 defenseman. Just because he's not a top-pairing defenseman doesn't mean he's bad.

ducks have been top 10 in goals against 2 of the last 3 years, fowler has been one of the two best dmen on the team the entire time. the problem is when there are uneducated comments like "fowler sucks" and only use advanced stats as a baseline. if fowler is such a terrible player why have the ducks been so good with him in a major role. he has flaws as a player but he also has clear strengths that help the team

 

[silverfish]

ducks have been top 10 in goals against 2 of the last 3 years, fowler has been one of the two best dmen on the team the entire time. the problem is when there are uneducated comments like "fowler sucks" and only use advanced stats as a baseline. if fowler is such a terrible player why have the ducks been so good with him in a major role

see: Girardi, Dan

 

[tomd]

can a merciful moderator please close this thread and put it out of its misery?

 

[WhatTheDuck]

His advance stats match up perfectly with his play. Good defensive play, followed by "oos and ahhhs" then he throws the puck to no one. Pretty big damn weakness.


Fowler and the Rangers don't fit. He wouldn't make the defense better, especially since he's a lefty....which is pretty sad because this d corpse (yes, corpse) sucks.

Your first paragraph couldn't be more wrong. The irony here is amazing, since a lot of Rangers fans like to base their opinions of Fowler solely off of stats. You're saying Fowler often makes good defensive plays and then turns the puck over? The stats show he's amongst the league's elite in terms of controlled zone exits.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/defencemen-best-exiting-zone/

see: Girardi, Dan

The difference there is that Girardi is the weaker Dman being propped up by a better player. Fowler is the one forced to do the carrying.

 

[WesMcCauley]

Bill Burr said it best "stats aren't stupid. It’s the way people apply them. You already have your mind made up and then you go to I'mright.com, and you start memorizing a bunch of s***, and just throw it up at people."

Yes the advanced stats show some holes in his game but it doesn't paint the whole picture. Then people have the audacity to tell the group of people who observe him the most that they don't know what they're talking about after they looked at some numbers thinking they're in Moneyball and that's enough to evaluate a player.

And you guys are missing the point. Not one person has said he is bad, we are just saying he isnt a top pair defensemen. You are a very good player if you are a top 4D in the NHL. Shot suppression etc has Fowler as a bottom pair D. No one on this forum has called him a bottom pair D to my knowledge. All we are saying is that he isnt a top pair guy. If he was, no chance in hell you would trade him for Miller and Hayes together. You would want a much better player than them in return. I wouldnt trade Miller for him straight up and im not as high on Miller as many NYR fans are. Lindholm i would give up alot for. Fowler has some flaws to his game and doesnt do anything extremely good.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

Fowler simply doesn't fit a need for us.

Yeah aren't the Rangers pretty set on the left side, Don't they need more of a RHD like Shattenkirk the a LHD like Fowler.

 

[tomd]

And you guys are missing the point. Not one person has said he is bad, we are just saying he isnt a top pair defensemen. You are a very good player if you are a top 4D in the NHL. Shot suppression etc has Fowler as a bottom pair D. No one on this forum has called him a bottom pair D to my knowledge. All we are saying is that he isnt a top pair guy. If he was, no chance in hell you would trade him for Miller and Hayes together. You would want a much better player than them in return. I wouldnt trade Miller for him straight up. Lindholm i would give up alot for.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the person who suggested the trade a Ranger fan?

 

[silverfish]

The difference there is that Girardi is the weaker Dman being propped up by a better player. Fowler is the one forced to do the carrying.

I don't deny, but saying things like:

"The Ducks don't give up goals and Fowler is on the ice a lot"

while simultaneously degrading people who are pouring a plethora of statistics into their analysis is, well, odd to me is all.

 

[PuqTalk]

cmon, he is not a top 2 defensemen... I have watched them a good amount and Lindholm and Vatanen are both better and Vatanen is a solid #3. Lindholm a great #2 or decent #1. Fowler is not anything special at all. Decent top 4. He also has bad possesion numbers and no matter how much you ducks fan say it doesnt matter, it does matter.

I could spend a much longer time trying to explain to you how his possession statistics are so lackluster, but since you're not likely to engage it I'll throw some cold hard stats your way.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/defencemen-best-exiting-zone/

He's one of the best defensemen in the league at handling the puck and keeping possession. Long story short he's been coached and used as a puck-moving, shutdown defenseman since basically his second/third year in the league with subpar partners that don't have any business facing the level of competition he does.

He's also just entering his prime and, while the damaging coaching early on in his career may prove irreparable, there's a glimmer of hope that someday someone's going to give him the chance to shine in a better role and really bring back the dynamic offensive spark to his game too. That probably won't be in Anaheim. Very unlikely with Carlyle back. He'll just be 25 heading into the halfway mark this season.

 

[WesMcCauley]

Weber and Josi have bad fancy stats as well, guess they are bad defensemen too? Fancy stats don't mean that much when you actually watch players play every game.

Vatanen is not better than Fowler, offensively sure, but overall? not even. Lindholm was only better than Fowler during the playoffs; we're hoping he keeps that up next season.

Fowler is a #2 defensemen playing with AHL level player in Bieksa while facing teams top players, all while being used in mostly defensive situations.

Weber is declining and struggled badly in the playoffs this season. He has been declining along with his possesion numbers declining, coincidence....? Dont think so

Josi is not good at all defensivly, very weak in his own sone. He is extremely good when he carries the puck on the rush and in the offensive sone but is very poor in his own sone compared to other #1 and #2 defensemen.

 

[WesMcCauley]

I could spend a much longer time trying to explain to you how his possession statistics are so lackluster, but since you're not likely to engage it I'll throw some cold hard stats your way.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/defencemen-best-exiting-zone/

He's one of the best defensemen in the league at handling the puck and keeping possession. Long story short he's been coached and used as a puck-moving, shutdown defenseman since basically his second/third year in the league with subpar partners that don't have any business facing the level of competition he does.

He's also just entering his prime and, while the damaging coaching early on in his career may prove irreparable, there's a glimmer of hope that someday someone's going to give him the chance to shine in a better role and really bring back the dynamic offensive spark to his game too. That probably won't be in Anaheim. Very unlikely with Carlyle back. He'll just be 25 heading into the halfway mark this season.

How on earth can a player be elite at handling the puck and keeping possesion but have poor possesion numbers? Thats not possible...

 

[LeetchisGod]

Yeah aren't the Rangers pretty set on the left side, Don't they need more of a RHD like Shattenkirk the a LHD like Fowler.

Bingo. The biggest reason that this offer makes no sense from a NYR perspective.

 

[WhatTheDuck]

How on earth can a player be elite at handling the puck and keeping possesion but have poor possesion numbers? Thats not possible...

He inevitably spends a lot of time jammed up in his own end, because he's a #2 type who's been tasked with carrying a top pairing, alongside a bottom pairing guy. He's out there to weather the storm, get us out of trouble and get off the ice so the Vatanen's of the world can do their thing. He's shown an elite ability for getting us up and out of the zone, so that's what he's primarily used for.

 

[Ducks in a row]

see: Girardi, Dan

He brings down his defense pair Fowler is leading his defense pair and being dragged down by worse defense partners. Would love to see Fowler playing with a defense partner of McDonough quality instead of 3rd pair quality defense partners Fowler gets stuck with so much. Anyone bringing up Girardi when talking about Fowler is just being foolish.

 

[Shootertooter]

Fowler gets less offensive zone starts then Vatanen while being tasked to shutdown other teams scorers with a crappy defense partner and gets more total mins. Fowler is the better overall defenseman. Stop advanced stat watching you need to actually watch him play more then you claim or at least become better at evaluating defenseman.

A couple of things.....why is his name in rumors if he is a top 2 or 3 guy on your team? If his fancy stats are bad because of his crappy partner, should the Ducks be shopping for a partner for him instead of shopping him? And lastly, back to stats, um, well, there is a reason they keep stats and I seem to remember looking at his fancy stats a while back and they were on par with Girardi's, they might have even been slightly worse. Stats do actually stand for something. I guarantee his own team would be using those stats against him in arbitration. You can't simply say, oh stats don't matter he is a better player than that.

That said, I kind of like Fowler but I don't believe the hype and I do think he is overvalued by Ducks fans. I don't see the Rangers trying to acquire a guy they decided not to pick in favor of McIlrath.

 

[Ducks in a row]

A couple of things.....why is his name in rumors if he is a top 2 or 3 guy on your team? If his fancy stats are bad because of his crappy partner, should the Ducks be shopping for a partner for him instead of shopping him? And lastly, back to stats, um, well, there is a reason they keep stats and I seem to remember looking at his fancy stats a while back and they were on par with Girardi's, they might have even been slightly worse. Stats do actually stand for something. I guarantee his own team would be using those stats against him in arbitration. You can't simply say, oh stats don't matter he is a better player than that.

That said, I kind of like Fowler but I don't believe the hype and I do think he is overvalued by Ducks fans. I don't see the Rangers trying to acquire a guy they decided not to pick in favor of McIlrath.

Because Fowler is a UFA in two years we might not be able to afford and that we have a strong blueline prospect pool and have a need of top 6 forwards which he could return. It cost a lot to trade for good defenseman so trading for a good defenseman partner for him isn't easy.

People need to stop bringing up Girardi and using that when talking about Fowler. Fowler leads a defense pair with bottom 6 quality defense partners so much while Girardi plays with McDonough a legit #1D.

Other teams fans always say Fowler is overrated not as good as Ducks fans say well you can say that about fans of all teams they can overrate their players but regardless Fowler is better then what advanced stats lovers and other teams fans think.

 

[SA16]

Truly horrific for the Rangers.

 

[WhatTheDuck]

A couple of things.....why is his name in rumors if he is a top 2 or 3 guy on your team? If his fancy stats are bad because of his crappy partner, should the Ducks be shopping for a partner for him instead of shopping him? And lastly, back to stats, um, well, there is a reason they keep stats and I seem to remember looking at his fancy stats a while back and they were on par with Girardi's, they might have even been slightly worse. Stats do actually stand for something. I guarantee his own team would be using those stats against him in arbitration. You can't simply say, oh stats don't matter he is a better player than that.

That said, I kind of like Fowler but I don't believe the hype and I do think he is overvalued by Ducks fans. I don't see the Rangers trying to acquire a guy they decided not to pick in favor of McIlrath.

We have one the league's best group of young defenseman (can't protect them all) and have a glaring need for talent up front. The only reason to consider moving Fowler is to upgrade our forward group. He had significant value as a young Dman who has shown he can take on a ton of responsibility, and you have to give to get.

Stats have very little meaning without context. There's no comparison to be made between what Girardi can do next to a true #1 in McDonagh, and what Fowler does alongside Bieksa. Let's see what Fowler's advanced stats look like if we ever get to see him used in an appropriate role, which would be a complimentary top pairing dman.

 

[FoxysExpensiveNYDigs]

I want Fowler just for the troll pairing of Fowler - McIlrath.

 

[mytduxfan*]

A couple of things.....why is his name in rumors if he is a top 2 or 3 guy on your team? If his fancy stats are bad because of his crappy partner, should the Ducks be shopping for a partner for him instead of shopping him? And lastly, back to stats, um, well, there is a reason they keep stats and I seem to remember looking at his fancy stats a while back and they were on par with Girardi's, they might have even been slightly worse. Stats do actually stand for something. I guarantee his own team would be using those stats against him in arbitration. You can't simply say, oh stats don't matter he is a better player than that.

That said, I kind of like Fowler but I don't believe the hype and I do think he is overvalued by Ducks fans. I don't see the Rangers trying to acquire a guy they decided not to pick in favor of McIlrath.

Without Lindholm and our incredibly deep pool of D prospects, Fowler would probably be our most untouchable player, regardless of his pending UFA status.

 

[lindholmie]

A couple of things.....why is his name in rumors if he is a top 2 or 3 guy on your team?

because the ducks are stacked on D. They have lindholm, fowler, vatanen, depres, manson, theodore, montour and larsson all 25 years and younger. They need wingers and fowler can probably bring in the best assets in a trade.

 

[eco's bones]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the person who suggested the trade a Ranger fan?

I thought he was a Ducks fan.

 

[FoxysExpensiveNYDigs]

Would Ducks fans be willing to do something around Montour+ for Kreider?

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

Bingo. The biggest reason that this offer makes no sense from a NYR perspective.

Yeah pretty much all the Ranger fans that i've seen on here, Say that Fowler to the Rangers makes zero sense. The Rangers need to go after Hometown boy Kevin Shattenkirk instead.