Confirmed with Link: Rangers buy out Shattenkirk

[Jaromir Jagr]

"Basically" every year is not every year.

And "basically" every year but not really every year, also does not guarantee that such a player wants to sign with us "basically" every year. Tavares had no interest in us. Stamkos didn't even make it to market before resigning and getting taken off the market. Maybe Hall doesn't either. And Hall is the only FA anywhere in the same stratosphere as Panarin next year; the year after, the only one of similar age and ability appears to be Landeskog.... good luck getting him out of Colorado. Maybe, but a bird in hand.

In the past ten years we have acquired:

Nash (star player)
Gaborik (star player)
Richards (one season removed from 90 points)
MSL (star player)
Panarin (star player)
Trouba (1st line D-man)
Shattenkirk (top FA in his class)
Hayes (most sought after prospect FA)
Vesey (most sought after prospect FA)

Sorry, but I don't have any fear that when we are actually ready to compete that

A) a star player in a position of need will be available

and

B) that we can acquire said player

 

[will1066]

well like that kinda did happen. its a money thing.

whether you love it or not, its pretty much true

its not like hes an 18 yr old kid.

hes ready for 3rd pair sheltered minutes and hell do as good or better than shatty would have done and for alot less $$

I was thinking Shattenkirk was going to get those sheltered 3rd pair minutes behind ADA, so yes, let Fox do it for less money.

 

[Tawnos]

I never said that and it's your own fault for insinuating.

By the way, we have many good prospects and it will be impossible for us to have them all reach and stay on the big club. So we will eventually have to either let guys walk, or leverage them in trades. Moreover, acting like signing an FA comes without any cost is just ridiculous.

I also don't understand why your responses to everyone you disagree with in here are hostile. You do know it's possible to respectfully disagree with someone, right?

We were talking about a player the Rangers signed out of UFA, why would I assume we were talking about something else?

It's not everyone I disagree with that I tend to be terse with... it's people who continually harp on the same points as if no one else is talking or no other evidence has provided.

 

[Jaromir Jagr]

We were talking about a player the Rangers signed out of UFA, why would I assume we were talking about something else?

It's not everyone I disagree with that I tend to be terse with... it's people who continually harp on the same points as if no one else is talking or no other evidence has provided.

You haven't provided any evidence to the contrary and I haven't even posted in like 2 months.

You just tell people they're wrong and that's it.

Like with this Staal argument. There were multiple reports citing the Rangers were considering buy he and Smith out. It was clear that it was between he and Shatty. So I don't understand why it's shocking to have people who think that was a better idea

Just because things end up happening one way, doesn't mean other options weren't considered.

And regarding the first point. We were talking about a player signed out of UFA. But I very clearly said that elite players become available basically every year. I didn't realize I had to spell out every specific situation in which they became available.

It's your own fault for insinuating things. I shouldn't have to state all aspects I'm not including in the conversation to help you understand.

 

[True Blue]

Agreed. The Trouba / Panarin strategy basically implied that (a) Kreider would be dealt either at the draft or mid summer, or, (b) Shattenkirk gets bought out. Sufficient Kreider deals didn't materialize.

Smith has versatility, Staal is veteran / plays other side / provides different style than rest of D, Namestnikov versatility important to fielding roster given uncertainty of youth next year and will have value at the deadline. I don't see how or why this is surprising or a strong case for an alternative approach (given Panarin/Trouba) other than people hoping he bounces back like a video game player...

I think people overlook this fact. Everything that we know and have been hinted at states that the returns for a Kreider deal were nothing that made Gorton itch to make a deal. Same with Namestnikov. So it is either buy out Shattenkirk or trade Kreider for a deal that would have most people howling.

As you point out, a buy out for Staal was never in the cards for reasons already covered. Smith is the 4th line protector who drops back when needed. Too much money for such a role true. But with the buy out, they are afforded the opportunity for such a player.

 

[mas0764]

And this is the positive I take from buying out Shattenkirk. Yes it was the “easy choice” but it provided enough relief this year to hold onto Kreider and not sell him off with a **** return.

Now if they turn around and offload Namestnikov in a deal they could’ve pulled off this summer - then that changes things a bit.

It probably means they were unsure if they'd be able to unload Namestnikov in a fair deal. I think the cap going up less than expected, and thus all the RFA uncertainty, is screwing us right now.

Shattenkirk was the "one-move" way out. It's worse for us next year but better for us this year, and this year is the real crunch.

I'll live with it. I feel bad because Shattenkirk wanted to be here and he turned down more money to be here. Yes, he'll get all the money he agreed to under his contract from the buyout, but the guy wanted nothing more than to be here and win here and it didn't work out for him. I think guys like Smith and yes, Staal, were the better options to remove from the roster prematurely, but only buying one of them out wasn't enough savings this year, other moves would have been required, such as a trade, and again, the indication by this move is that such trades weren't the best value for us. So we took the buyout route.

We'll get by. Not the end of the world.

I'm not gonna do anything crazy like say it's a "B" offseason now. There's really no long term effect of this beyond next year, and unless we were planning to do something like sign Backstrom, then it really doesn't matter.

 

[Jaromir Jagr]

Shattenkirk was the "one-move" way out. It's worse for us next year but better for us this year, and this year is the real crunch.

This year is the year that's the 'real crunch' because it's here right now.

It's absolutely possible that next year will also be a 'real crunch' and then we're stuck with a 6 million albatross for a guy who doesn't even exist.

 

[mas0764]

I think the chances of Kreider being extended are higher now than at any time to date. If he finds the right niche on this reworked offense, it might become very hard to walk away from him.

If he'll sign a four year deal for way under market value and he can prove himself as more of a 2nd/3rd line type (needs to pick up his defense) he could be very valuable.

But I just see a bad fit long term if its anything other than that. A Kevin Hayes deal, which he can likely demand in excess of? No way.

 

[will1066]

Immediate. Cap. Relief.

Avoided. Getting. Fleeced. For. Kreider.

It. Takes. Two. To. Tango. To. Make. A. Trade.

 

[eco's bones]

very disappointed
have been on board with Ranger braintrust so far and they deserve our continued support, but this
simply does not make sense.

Smith can be buried

Staal going gets rid of worse player [not his fault, brave to persevere thru concussions, eye injuries, etc., but still, bottom line]
makes a statement about NMCs
allows chance to see if Shatty can rebound from injury
keeps Shatty who can play either side, Staal is lefty only
would reduce excess at LD, = mo mins for emerging kids

objectively, does not make sense
also, the 6+ cap hit next yr
is created
while buying out or Staal retiring - if he obliges - next year loses that,
covers most of that cap hit
still...
not seeing the max benefit

worst of all, Shatty took less $ and term to be here, and this leaves a bad taste in the mouth of guys who may be thinking about coming here and giving us a break to do so.

does NOT earn the bernmeister seal of approval
Good luck Shatty, and thanks.

Smith can be buried but most of his cap hit will still be on the books.

Make a statement about NMC's?--the CBA is a negotiated agreement between the league and its players. As a retired union person I expect that the League and its owners and managers to abide by binding agreements it signs on to if they expect the employees/players to do the same. It's a two way street--not a one way. In any case I don't think the Rangers have any issue at all with the NHLPA--they have never been hardliners in CBA agreements.

For a guy whose been yelling for a rebuild for years and years I would think that you'd be fine with the buyout though.....and if you were being honest about Shattenkirk that you would think that he's underperformed expectations since signing his contract. As well I don't know if his knee is still an issue but his abilities even last year seemed compromised so I'm not sure why so many think he's going to rebound and especially for those who want DeAngelo to continue making progress Kevin is in his way.

The claim that Shattenkirk can play both sides is ridiculous---sure he can if everyone else can too. In any case--he never has to my knowledge played on the left and he has enough issues defensively on the right side that I really wouldn't want to find out.

I don't get any joy out of what's happened to Kevin over the last couple years. I wish it would have turned out better. His coming to the Rangers coincided with our collapse. It's not all his fault for sure but he could have come in better shape and he might have gone to the medical staff sooner with his knee issue instead of playing on an injury and making it worse. His play has dropped and he's hit 30 and we needed cap relief and we have a real #1RD in Trouba and a very much younger Fox who has a young Shattenkirk like game and is a lot cheaper and a DeAngelo who needs his power play time.....and Nils Lundkvist on the way. He's replaceable from within.

I wish Shatty well. I would not have an issue bringing him back some day in a non-player capacity. He wanted to be a Ranger--they gave him a shot---it didn't work out well.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

We have been down this road, and this statement has been shown over and over again to be false.

Since 2009, these are guys who have either been traded (and extended, if they were a pending UFA) or become available via UFA.

Pronger
Heatley
Hossa
Gaborik
Kovalchuk
Seguin
Nash
Hall
Subban Pt 1
Karlsson
M. Richards
Carter (twice)
MSL
Stone
Spezza
Panarin
Tavares
Parise
Suter

And I'm probably missing a few.

I'm not going to count trades that included guys like Buff, Forsberg, Burns or Wheeler since they really came into their own post trade.

Noted. I'll do that most of the time you post about Staal, since most of those posts qualify.

Or you could just stop trying to justify a bunch of terrible takes?

I think that would be easier.

 

[Mac n Gs]

What is your alternative? Consider that they need to get under the cap and it does not sound like the price for a Kreider move is not much and Gorton is not going to trade him for pennies on the dollar. Again, remember that stating that "Buy out Stall instead" is just simply not a realistic scenario. So, from a realistic perspective, what is the alternative to get under the cap? Also cannot say "just trade x or y or z". You cannot force GMs to make a trade.

Look at the table I posted above. Buying out Namestnikov and Smith saved more money this year, and I doubt that Namestnikov will have enough value to make retaining him worth it.

 

[mas0764]

In an off-season that began with lots of historically atypical Rangers moves, it seems to have come full circle with signing Panarin to a ridiculous contract and now buying out Shattenkirk over Staal and Smith.

I really thought the Rangers were turning a corner and would manage their franchise with discipline, but it seems I was wrong.

Shattenkirk was the only player of the three buyout options that might have realistically turned it around and had some value at 50% retained. There is no hope for Staal or Smith and both are far inferior players (albeit on a left-hand side largely devoid of talent).

I still don't see this team as being a playoff team. And they are now going to be saddled with an absolutely massive cap hit for a player that doesn't exist next year (as well as a smaller cap hit for 2 years after that).

They have already destroyed their financial flexibility for the next two years and it now looks as if Kreider will either be overpaid by us or we will live with another year of deadline drama.

If we sign Kreider, we will almost surely lose several of our young prospects when they need to be paid.

An off-season that really started brilliantly and took a long-term approach, has now reversed itself with several really short-sighted moves. These last two specifically are tremendously costly and basicaly should have only been made by teams that see themselves as cup contenders.

Not much of anything true in this post.

 

[Kaapo Bustfreniere]

If that knee injury doesn't happen, he likely end up putting up a slew of points. Guy started with 18 points in 25 games. That's pace of 58-60 points per game--insane numbers... That injury however bad it was was a major problem, and I agree with you RB, it's it's way more serious than the rangers ever reported -- knee injuries should not take 6 months to heal, this one did, it's a fluke, but it's a bad one at the same time that cost us a lot in the end...

I want to be clear that this isn't an issue with free agents -- whatever shatts did to that knee was way more serious than one would expect to happen--this is a fluke injury

Knee surgeries do take that long to heal. Depends on what the injury is. If it's just a torn meniscus, then not. But a torn ACL, which is very common in sports, takes 6 - 12 months after surgery to fully heal. So in fact 6 months is not too bad at all and by no means a fluke.

 

[mas0764]

News flash: we were never going to compete the next two years anyway.

Once we make it to 21-22 our cap issues vanish.

Yeah. We've "hamstrung" ourselves next year.... in a year where we will have no desirable FA targets anyway, most likely.... with $16m+ in cap space to sign like 7 guys to bottom 6/bottom pair roles.

Wow, we're screwed.

And then the next year! Heavens! Only $20+ mil in cap space.

 

[eco's bones]

Immediate. Cap. Relief.

Avoided. Getting. Fleeced. For. Kreider.

It. Takes. Two. To. Tango. To. Make. A. Trade.

A Kreider trade should come at the earliest in January and at the latest by the deadline in February. Teams start thinking they're in--but need more speed, offense off the wing are going to be willing to pony up more assets. I don't think we'd get a 1st from anybody for Kreider right now--most teams have tight cap issues--a lot of them wondering how good they are and not wanting to give up a potential lottery pick. Once January these things will become more and more clear.

 

[will1066]

A Kreider trade should come at the earliest in January and at the latest by the deadline in February. Teams start thinking they're in--but need more speed, offense off the wing are going to be willing to pony up more assets. I don't think we'd get a 1st from anybody for Kreider right now--most teams have tight cap issues--a lot of them wondering how good they are and not wanting to give up a potential lottery pick. Once January these things will become more and more clear.

I agree. All of this works in the team's favor.

 

[Tawnos]

You haven't provided any evidence to the contrary and I haven't even posted in like 2 months.

You just tell people they're wrong and that's it.

Like with this Staal argument. There were multiple reports citing the Rangers were considering buy he and Smith out. It was clear that it was between he and Shatty. So I don't understand why it's shocking to have people who think that was a better idea

Just because things end up happening one way, doesn't mean other options weren't considered.

We've had this conversation several times over the last year in regards to Panarin.

While it has been essentially 3 years where we've had an elite UFA get to free agency (I consider Stamkos having gotten there since he signed after being able to talk to other teams), you have to go several years further back to find the next one. Another way to look at it: of the top 50 contracts in the league by cap hit %, that were signed as UFAs, a grand total of 9 involved the player changing teams. That tells me that the vast majority of top players stick with their teams.

Also, I really don't remember any reports that the Rangers were seriously considering buying out Staal. Of course they consider all their options, so I'm not saying it never came up as an idea. I remember plenty of speculation that they might, but that's not the same thing.

 

[offdacrossbar]

couple things here

there was NO market like ZERO for kevin shattenkirk.

we already have 1 dead man playing contract named marc staal whos literally bad at everything. hes here by default and because theres ZERO market for him and his albatross deal.

we cant afford 2 of those and say to those newly signed guys, hey were serious but were gonna have staal and shatty in our top 6 ? not happening.

henrik wants to win. believes he still can. panarin came here to win not just to hang in brighton. trouba came here to win. st louis went from last to cup champs. dont think that doesnt resonate on broadway.

JG's job is to field the best team and so the KS money was reallocated elsewhere to do exactly that. the adam fox signing was the end of the KS era. the right side is trouba, ADA and fox. that's solid.

last yr it was mcquaid pionk and shatty. barf.

i applaud JG for making that call. total right play here.

 

[Jaromir Jagr]

Not much of anything true in this post.

Great response. I'd like to see some actual valid points as to what I wrote that's not true.

You think Staal and Smith can become valuable players?

You think Staal and Smith are better than Shattenkirk?

You think the Rangers are a playoff team or cup contender?

You think this team has financial flexibility this and next year?

You think if we sign Kreider that we won't lose some of our prospects (every one of which will be due a raise during the next 4 years)?

 

[mas0764]

Staal + Smith

[TABLE="class: brtb_item_table"][TBODY][TR][TD]Season[/TD][TD]AAV[/TD][TD]Cap Penalty[/TD][TD]Net Savings[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]2019-20[/TD][TD]$10,050,000[/TD][TD]$3,870,833[/TD][TD]$6,179,167[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]2020-21[/TD][TD]$10,050,000[/TD][TD]$6,845,833[/TD][TD]$3,204,167[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]2021-22[/TD][TD]$0[/TD][TD]$2,345,833[/TD][TD]-$2,345,833[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]2022-23[/TD][TD]$0[/TD][TD]$2,345,833[/TD][TD]-$2,345,833[/TD][/TR][/TBODY][/TABLE]
Shattenkirk

[TABLE="class: brtb_item_table"][TBODY][TR][TD]Season[/TD][TD]AAV[/TD][TD]Cap Penalty[/TD][TD]Net Savings[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]2019-20[/TD][TD]$6,650,000[/TD][TD]$1,483,333[/TD][TD]$5,166,667[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]2020-21[/TD][TD]$6,650,000[/TD][TD]$6,083,333[/TD][TD]$566,667[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]2021-22[/TD][TD]$0[/TD][TD]$1,433,333[/TD][TD]-$1,433,333[/TD][/TR]
[TR][TD]2022-23[/TD][TD]$0[/TD][TD]$1,433,333[/TD][TD]-$1,433,333[/TD][/TR][/TBODY][/TABLE]
Buying out Staal or Smith alone doesn't get you the 2019-20 savings that buying out Shattenkirk does. Buying out both Staal and Smith gives you the most 2019-20 savings, but one reason the Rangers may have chosen against this is Dolan's out of pocket expense. Buying out Shattenkirk cost Dolan $5,733,333 in real dollars. Buying out Staal and Smith would have cost Dolan $9,383,333. Buying out Shattenkirk also hurts less in years three and four.

Source: CapFriendly

Wow.... when you have basically min salary ELC players to replace roster spots (like we do with Rykov, Fox, Hajek, etc), this really shows that the better route was buyouts of Smith and Staal. Only costs you an extra $900k in years 3 and 4, but clears off two albatrosses, and gives you an extra $4m in savings the first two years.

Yeah, I think they are just married to Staal, is a big part of it. And Smith by himself wasn't enough. I think a Smith-Staal combo buyout was the way to go, but I'm not gonna freak out about it. Oh well.

 

[eco's bones]

Yeah. We've "hamstrung" ourselves next year.... in a year where we will have no desirable FA targets anyway, most likely.... with $16m+ in cap space to sign like 7 guys to bottom 6/bottom pair roles.

Wow, we're screwed.

And then the next year! Heavens! Only $20+ mil in cap space.

There doesn't look like there are going to be many or any major free agent targets anyway. Hall next year--maybe, probably not--after him it's a big falloff. The year after Landeskog looks like maybe he'll be the best player if he's still available and there's a good chance he won't be. Do I like him?--Yeah I do. Would I break the bank for him? f*** no. I'm kind of thinking Panarin is going to end up being the best free agent signing not only this year but easily better than anyone the next two years.

 

[Ori]

I`m not worried about this buyout decision at all - our defense should be the focus in the next couple of years with or without Kevin S. buyout. And after Panarin signing we need future cap space.

 

[Jaromir Jagr]

We've had this conversation several times over the last year in regards to Panarin.

While it has been essentially 3 years where we've had an elite UFA get to free agency (I consider Stamkos having gotten there since he signed after being able to talk to other teams), you have to go several years further back to find the next one. Another way to look at it: of the top 50 contracts in the league by cap hit %, that were signed as UFAs, a grand total of 9 involved the player changing teams. That tells me that the vast majority of top players stick with their teams.

Also, I really don't remember any reports that the Rangers were seriously considering buying out Staal. Of course they consider all their options, so I'm not saying it never came up as an idea. I remember plenty of speculation that they might, but that's not the same thing.

1. You can continue to harp on only UFA (and it's kinda insane you don't consider Tavares an elite player), but the fact is elite players become available pretty much every season via trade or UFA (I included this to make you happy).

2. Brooks quite clearly reported they were looking at buyout out Staal and Smith. And considering he is like the #1 source for insider Rangers shit, I'd say that's pretty significant.

 

[howztheglass]

In all honesty at the end of the day I believe if it weren't for Shatty's cap hit next year most of us wouldn't mind this buyout.

Yeah most wanted Staal gone.

Yeah Shattenkirk took less coin to come here but not a ton.

But at the time of his signing he was needed and he himself wanted to come here--PP specialist and Right handed defenseman. But came out of shape got hurt Etc.

Now we have Trouba / ADA / Fox for our right side ( maybe he starts in the minors at the beginning of the season )--No need for Shatty on the PP / no need for him on the third pair d-line to block someone else / doesn't kill penalties--so you could see where there is less value of keeping him other then hoping he could re-build his trade value.

I have a sneaking feeling that for some reason the Rangers upper-management has a Staal's been a soldier mentality in the past ( some of which is true ) and doesn't want to get rid of him.

As for Smith he can be the 13th forward or in a time of need can switch back to the defense.

Names will go at the deadline.

Leaving Shattenkirk as the one to go.