Race to the bottom - Rebuild thread #2.

[Stephen]

I wish it were that easy... As bad as we have potential to be by the end, there are so many crappy teams in the East and the Westerm Canadian teams, idk if we can outtank them, I think we are destined for anywhere from 7-13th pick or something. And in this draft, that may turn out to be someone we hope will be as good as Kadri.

Well, the Leafs are the second worst team in the league over the past 10 games, so almost 25% of the season so far. Given how emotionally fragile this team is, I wouldn't be surprised if they made some real "gains" by season's end.

It's like the Sundin era teams in reverse. Come out hot, and then just hit a wall, whereas those old teams would at least play for pride and make a great showing.

 

[Glenn Isildur Healy]

1) This team doesnt keep its draft picks
2) When we do keep draft picks, compared to other teams drafts, its below average
3) We overpay mediocre free agents year after year

Its about developing young players in the minors. Not signing a couple of free agents and hoping everything gels when the foundation of this organization isn't even stable

Nothing shocks me anymore. It used to hurt a lot when I was younger, no more

 

[Billy6]

1) This team doesnt keep its draft picks
2) When we do keep draft picks, compared to other teams drafts, its below average
3) We overpay mediocre free agents year after year

Its about developing young players in the minors. Not signing a couple of free agents and hoping everything gels when the foundation of this organization isn't even stable

Nothing shocks me anymore. It used to hurt a lot when I was younger, no more

It's about time that the Leafs clean house with their scouting staff. Dave Morrison and co. just haven't done a good job.

It's time for the Leafs to go get the best scouts they can find and pay them the highest wage in the scouting business and let's finally find some decent players on draft day.

 

[Billy6]

I don't see this organization ever doing a full rebuild

So Sad

I unfortunately came to this realization years ago. It kills me that anytime there's a discussion on rebuilding that so many Leaf fans are against it like what we've had to endure for the past forty years is better.

Rielly, Kadri, JVR, and Bernier are the only guys on this team that I wouldn't trade. Anyone else could be had including Phaneuf and Kessel. The 2015 draft is LOADED with talent, not just McDavid. This team as it's currently constructed is going nowhere. Tank, tank, tank.

 

[Judas Tavares]

I unfortunately came to this realization years ago. It kills me that anytime there's a discussion on rebuilding that so many Leaf fans are against it like what we've had to endure for the past forty years is better.

Rielly, Kadri, JVR, and Bernier are the only guys on this team that I wouldn't trade. Anyone else could be had including Phaneuf and Kessel. The 2015 draft is LOADED with talent, not just McDavid. This team as it's currently constructed is going nowhere. Tank, tank, tank.

Eichel, Barzal, Konecny, Strome....

 

[William Nylander*]

The one draft that is stacked with centers, we somehow make the playoffs.

And now we're back to being sucky again, in a so-so draft. Just our luck

 

[Daisy Jane]

The one draft that is stacked with centers, we somehow make the playoffs.

And now we're back to being sucky again, in a so-so draft. Just our luck

i'm sorry I just had to really hard. because you know - it's true.
i am telling you right now: not only are we not going to suck really hard for McDavid, we're going to win the Eastern Conference AND be eliminated in the Eastern finals, just to be so far away from the #1 pick, why? just because.

 

[Diatomic]

By the way it looks right now were ending up with a surefire top 10 pick, maybe even top 5. We've lost to Florida, Buffalo, Colombus and a AHL penguins team in recent games, not to mention how many others we've blown away in november and december. Just aweful.

 

[Judas Tavares]

I have a Toewsy feeling about this kid

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=189369

Have a good feeling about him too

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=189364

 

[Ricky Bobby]

It's about time that the Leafs clean house with their scouting staff. Dave Morrison and co. just haven't done a good job.

It's time for the Leafs to go get the best scouts they can find and pay them the highest wage in the scouting business and let's finally find some decent players on draft day.

When our GMs keep trading away picks how is our scouting staff ever suppose to look great?

I don't buy that our scouting staff is the issue. This is the same staff that found Kulemin, Reimer, Gunnarson, Frattin, Stalberg, Komarov with mid to late picks in the 06 and 07 drafts.

Players like Percy, Leivo, Granberg, Finn, Brown might simply just need development time.

Nonis needs to work on getting on recouping picks we gave up in the Bernier, Bolland, Holland (who definitely looks like a nice pickup) trades and give our scouts more to work with.

 

[Bill Waters*]

Maybe this team wouldn't be so mediocre if ownership acted more ethically:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isKcDw_3icM

 

[blueberrie]

They drafted a core but not by tanking . Thats just it and was missed by your "comparison"

Also, what are these futures they used to bring in players? Schenn for JVR , Beauchemin for Gardiner , Lebda for Franson , Scrivens(oldest) + Frattin for Bernier or how about the Phaneuf trade at that time Phaneuf(24)and Aulie(19/20) for Stajan(26) , Hagman(29) and Mayers(34)


If you want to look at the draft picks that the Leafs just "throw away" or youngsters given up on then at least look at the positives that the Leafs made. The problem with people who have a similar mindset is that its far too easy to think negatively than positively . Draft picks are valued far too highly around here, thats not to say trade them all away but when draft pick is traded people here freak out

Must of misinterpreted the post then. I thought it was implied since Detroit's been trading their first round picks the last 20 years that the Leafs could too. I was just trying to illustrate that the current Leaf situation is nothing like that and we aren't in a position to deal first rounders when we have huge holes to fill in the team.

Burke did a great job of changing the culture when he came in, besides the Kessel deal. Nonis needs to take the next step and start accumulating picks though. A rebuild isn't over once we become a bubble team.

This board can be a pretty negative place sometimes but it's not without reason. Being outplayed in 75% of games this year, and the 66 point pace since November (before tonights loss) are MAJOR red flags. There is still time to right the ship, just as there is still time to go off the cliff.

I'm not personally advocating a tank just yet, but I think the Leaf organization needs to do a complete overhaul on scouting, drafting, and development philosophies. That's why I'm baffled that bringing up shopping Raymond, Kulemin, Franson and McClemment is met with such hostility around here sometimes. Do we really want to lock up our top 9 for the next couple years, when they've shown they are a bubble team at best?

It's time to put trust in our scouting staff, and provide them with more picks in the early rounds to try and fill out our roster. We're not going to acquire a #1C and #1-2D without creating other major holes, not to mention our cap problem at the moment. I think a step back by dealing pending FA's and perhaps players like Lupul (for the right offer) could be worth it in the end if it creates a larger step forward. If a "tank" is a result of that, and we end up with a higher first rounder, I wouldn't be complaining.

 

[Billy6]

When our GMs keep trading away picks how is our scouting staff ever suppose to look great?

I don't buy that our scouting staff is the issue. This is the same staff that found Kulemin, Reimer, Gunnarson, Frattin, Stalberg, Komarov with mid to late picks in the 06 and 07 drafts.

Players like Percy, Leivo, Granberg, Finn, Brown might simply just need development time.

Nonis needs to work on getting on recouping picks we gave up in the Bernier, Bolland, Holland (who definitely looks like a nice pickup) trades and give our scouts more to work with.

I don't disagree with the trading of too many picks part, but give me a break otherwise.

Kulemin, Reimer, Gunnerson et al that you mention is not exactly a great list of players that I would be proud to attach my name to as a scout. And that second group Percy, Leivo etc, sure maybe they do just need more development time, but then again maybe they are just as big of a bunch of busts as every other Leaf draft pick in the last 7-8 years not named Rielly or Kadri.

Quit making excuses for these people. The Leafs are the richest team in the league. Find the best scout in every region of North America and every country in Europe, get them on the payroll, and start building this team the right way for once and all: drafting and developing.

 

[Billy6]

Must of misinterpreted the post then. I thought it was implied since Detroit's been trading their first round picks the last 20 years that the Leafs could too. I was just trying to illustrate that the current Leaf situation is nothing like that and we aren't in a position to deal first rounders when we have huge holes to fill in the team.

Burke did a great job of changing the culture when he came in, besides the Kessel deal. Nonis needs to take the next step and start accumulating picks though. A rebuild isn't over once we become a bubble team.

This board can be a pretty negative place sometimes but it's not without reason. Being outplayed in 75% of games this year, and the 66 point pace since November (before tonights loss) are MAJOR red flags. There is still time to right the ship, just as there is still time to go off the cliff.

I'm not personally advocating a tank just yet, but I think the Leaf organization needs to do a complete overhaul on scouting, drafting, and development philosophies. That's why I'm baffled that bringing up shopping Raymond, Kulemin, Franson and McClemment is met with such hostility around here sometimes. Do we really want to lock up our top 9 for the next couple years, when they've shown they are a bubble team at best?

It's time to put trust in our scouting staff, and provide them with more picks in the early rounds to try and fill out our roster. We're not going to acquire a #1C and #1-2D without creating other major holes, not to mention our cap problem at the moment. I think a step back by dealing pending FA's and perhaps players like Lupul (for the right offer) could be worth it in the end if it creates a larger step forward. If a "tank" is a result of that, and we end up with a higher first rounder, I wouldn't be complaining.

This is a great post.

I can't agree more about being baffled about why Leaf fans are so resistant to move players off this roster. You mentioned guys like Franson and Raymond, but I'll take it one step further.

The Leafs have already locked up Kessel for 8 years and are closing in a deal with Phaneuf for 7 years. Why? Is this really the core that we want? What have these guys done for our team? They have been the cornerstones for this team for 5 years now and what have we got besides the biggest and most embarrassing playoff collapse in franchise history? How many playoff series wins? Zero. How many individual awards have they won? Zero. How many first or second team all star selections? Zero. How many hockey people consider these guys to be top 30 players in the NHL? Zero.

If this is our core then it's no wonder this team is so mediocre.

If Leaf fans want to truly change the culture of this team then it's time to go big and realize that as long as Kessel and Phaneuf are our best players we will not win. It will not happen. Time to move on. I'd be listening to offers for Kessel once the cap goes up and I would let Phaneuf walk.

I know that I'm going to get ripped for this post, but I don't care. I don't want to spend the next 7 or 8 years watching the same damn crappy team I've been watching for the last 5. These guys are not as good as the majority of Leaf fans pretend they are, and they are not worthy of big money long term contracts that we will be stuck with for almost another decade.

 

[alcanalz]

This is a great post.

I can't agree more about being baffled about why Leaf fans are so resistant to move players off this roster. You mentioned guys like Franson and Raymond, but I'll take it one step further.

The Leafs have already locked up Kessel for 8 years and are closing in a deal with Phaneuf for 7 years. Why? Is this really the core that we want? What have these guys done for our team? They have been the cornerstones for this team for 5 years now and what have we got besides the biggest and most embarrassing playoff collapse in franchise history? How many playoff series wins? Zero. How many individual awards have they won? Zero. How many first or second team all star selections? Zero. How many hockey people consider these guys to be top 30 players in the NHL? Zero.

If this is our core then it's no wonder this team is so mediocre.

If Leaf fans want to truly change the culture of this team then it's time to go big and realize that as long as Kessel and Phaneuf are our best players we will not win. It will not happen. Time to move on. I'd be listening to offers for Kessel once the cap goes up and I would let Phaneuf walk.

I know that I'm going to get ripped for this post, but I don't care. I don't want to spend the next 7 or 8 years watching the same damn crappy team I've been watching for the last 5. These guys are not as good as the majority of Leaf fans pretend they are, and they are not worthy of big money long term contracts that we will be stuck with for almost another decade.

2007–08:

First All-Star Team
Alexander Ovechkin • Evgeni Malkin • Jarome Iginla
Nicklas Lidstrom • Dion Phaneuf
Evgeni Nabokov

 

[lebdafor norris]

i'm sorry I just had to really hard. because you know - it's true.
i am telling you right now: not only are we not going to suck really hard for McDavid, we're going to win the Eastern Conference AND be eliminated in the Eastern finals, just to be so far away from the #1 pick, why? just because.

Sounds like a great year to me.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

This is a great post.

I can't agree more about being baffled about why Leaf fans are so resistant to move players off this roster. You mentioned guys like Franson and Raymond, but I'll take it one step further.

The Leafs have already locked up Kessel for 8 years and are closing in a deal with Phaneuf for 7 years. Why? Is this really the core that we want? What have these guys done for our team? They have been the cornerstones for this team for 5 years now and what have we got besides the biggest and most embarrassing playoff collapse in franchise history? How many playoff series wins? Zero. How many individual awards have they won? Zero. How many first or second team all star selections? Zero. How many hockey people consider these guys to be top 30 players in the NHL? Zero.

If this is our core then it's no wonder this team is so mediocre.

If Leaf fans want to truly change the culture of this team then it's time to go big and realize that as long as Kessel and Phaneuf are our best players we will not win. It will not happen. Time to move on. I'd be listening to offers for Kessel once the cap goes up and I would let Phaneuf walk.

I know that I'm going to get ripped for this post, but I don't care. I don't want to spend the next 7 or 8 years watching the same damn crappy team I've been watching for the last 5. These guys are not as good as the majority of Leaf fans pretend they are, and they are not worthy of big money long term contracts that we will be stuck with for almost another decade.

Assuming this trend continues, how long will it be before they fire Carlyle? And, will they turn on Nonis not long afterwards?

Or, can the Leafs turn it around in the wonky & weak Eastern conference.

Paradoxical opposites.

 

[Judas Tavares]

This is a great post.

I can't agree more about being baffled about why Leaf fans are so resistant to move players off this roster. You mentioned guys like Franson and Raymond, but I'll take it one step further.

The Leafs have already locked up Kessel for 8 years and are closing in a deal with Phaneuf for 7 years. Why? Is this really the core that we want? What have these guys done for our team? They have been the cornerstones for this team for 5 years now and what have we got besides the biggest and most embarrassing playoff collapse in franchise history? How many playoff series wins? Zero. How many individual awards have they won? Zero. How many first or second team all star selections? Zero. How many hockey people consider these guys to be top 30 players in the NHL? Zero.

If this is our core then it's no wonder this team is so mediocre.

If Leaf fans want to truly change the culture of this team then it's time to go big and realize that as long as Kessel and Phaneuf are our best players we will not win. It will not happen. Time to move on. I'd be listening to offers for Kessel once the cap goes up and I would let Phaneuf walk.

I know that I'm going to get ripped for this post, but I don't care. I don't want to spend the next 7 or 8 years watching the same damn crappy team I've been watching for the last 5. These guys are not as good as the majority of Leaf fans pretend they are, and they are not worthy of big money long term contracts that we will be stuck with for almost another decade.

SInce its going up, I wouldn't mind trying to compliment him with an $8 million centre. Easier said than done though.

 

[Doublechin]

Kessel is simply not a player to build around, he needs to be traded to an obscure market where he isn't the primary player, I've said it many times, he is simply not a winner and throws the towel fast, every time someone touches him you can see him on the bench cringing and almost crying. The guy is not built for this, trade him and get young assets for him, lots of teams need a goal scorer.

And while you're at it trade Phaneuf too, I firmly believe that by trading these 2 players the team culture will vastly improve. He is not the leader many claim he is and quite frankly after Gardiner which has a huge lead he has also been the cause of many goals this season.

Ohh and trade Gardiner ASAP, someone might need a second pairing PP QB out there, get value out of him before he's fully exposed and it becomes too late.

 

[K19*]

What a sad team, coach, GM, owners, CEO (giving the 5-year extension LOL). Just overall pathetic. They'll never tear it down and rebuild properly.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

I don't disagree with the trading of too many picks part, but give me a break otherwise.

Kulemin, Reimer, Gunnerson et al that you mention is not exactly a great list of players that I would be proud to attach my name to as a scout. And that second group Percy, Leivo etc, sure maybe they do just need more development time, but then again maybe they are just as big of a bunch of busts as every other Leaf draft pick in the last 7-8 years not named Rielly or Kadri.

Quit making excuses for these people. The Leafs are the richest team in the league. Find the best scout in every region of North America and every country in Europe, get them on the payroll, and start building this team the right way for once and all: drafting and developing.

Our current scouting group has only been in the job since the 06 draft.

The players I listed like Frattin, Kulemin, Gunnarson, Reimer, Stalberg, Leivo, Broll were all found outside of the top 40 picks in the draft and in some cases much lower.

Compare our picks outside the top 40 to highly regarded drafting teams like Pittsburgh, Sharks, etc. and we actually are doing quite good. Since 06 how many front line players outside the top 40 picks have actually been taken? 2-maybe 4 in each draft with 09 onward still being to early to judge.

But if our scouts don't get many picks to work with how can you expect them to have good odds of finding a gem in the draft?

The problem for the Leafs is lack of high end talent at the Center and D position that is still mostly acquired through the top part of the draft (or through trade and free agency) where our scouts were correct on the Rielly and Kadri picks which were not universally agreed upon players to take in those spots.

 

[crazyaces**]

By the way it looks right now were ending up with a surefire top 10 pick, maybe even top 5. We've lost to Florida, Buffalo, Colombus and a AHL penguins team in recent games, not to mention how many others we've blown away in november and december. Just aweful.

You're forgetting about all the games we will win, once were close to be to being mathematically eliminated!

 

[blueberrie]

Since '06 (8 Drafts)
1st (7/8) Tlusty, Schenn, Kadri, Biggs, Percy, Rielly, Gauthier
2nd (6/8) Kulemin, Hayes, Ryan, Blacker, Ross, Finn
3rd (6/8) Mitchell, Devane, McKegg, Olden, Leivo, Verhaeghe
4th (7/8) Reimer, Holzer, Frattin, Winnett, Stefanovich, Granberg, Nilsson

Bolded seem like decent picks, however it's too early to tell for the last couple drafts. Schenn and Blacker were included because they were able to used to acquire JVR, and Holland.

Other notables include Gunnarsson(7), Komarov(6), Stalberg(6), MacWilliam(7), D'Amigo(6), Brown(6), Johnson (7).

The thing that sticks out most for me is a rebuilding club not once having more picks than given to us by the NHL in the first four rounds. Burke's comments about the potential first rounders available for the KGM line a couple years back seem very silly as we've lost 2 of them for nothing so far.

Overall not a bad job by Morrisson but no non-lotto pick steals at this point. I'd be willing to give him more time to see if he can convert more if we increased the amount of picks we give him. Maybe the lack of picks has led him to play it safer? Not sure.

 

[Glenn Isildur Healy]

Haayward, I think when evaluating Morrison and group, we shouldn't factor in trades that happened afterwards because it doesn't hit the core of who these guys scouted and liked enough to draft

Lots of questions in the past few years. We will have to see how they pan out

So far, Reimer, Kadri, Frattin, Schenn, Kulemin, Tlutsy and Rielly. Alright but no home runs which we desperately need and still like to see more quality

I also cant blame too much on Morrison and group because our management continues to trade draft picks like candy

 

[Billy6]

2007–08:

First All-Star Team
Alexander Ovechkin • Evgeni Malkin • Jarome Iginla
Nicklas Lidstrom • Dion Phaneuf
Evgeni Nabokov

When he played for Calgary doesn't count. Nice try though.

What has he accomplished since he came to Toronto?