You are right, he didn't play a lot last year either, which was a significant outlier vs. all other winners of the Norris except Karlsson).....however, he still played 270% more PK last year than this year
Quinn Hughes is having a Hart caliber season
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Rabid Ranger
2 is better than one
He plays the same minutes as Makar. I don't know why it's such a badge of honor to have your best players PK. Let your lesser lights do that, especially on defense. These guys get beat up as is.
If you are the best defenseman in the league, why would you be kept off the ice for PK?
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PK is much more systematic. That's why dudes like Rob Scuderi could excel in that role. Great D-men have a huge 2-way influence on the game, and on the PK that's limited by necessity. So, sure, give them some minutes, but if any plug can do it, might as well give them the gruntwork (especially on D -- I can see a bit more argument for a forward in terms of posing a shorthanded threat).
I get the explanation, but my point is, if someone is truly the best defenseman in the league, you would think a team would put him out in all situations.....historically, that is what the voting results have reflected as well.
Maybe because they want him on the ice more for ES and PP, and the penalty killing role can be allocated to other players (like Juulsen, who is garbage outside the PK). Why assume that the reason he isn't on the PK is because he can't be trusted? He doesn't have to be superman. There are other players on the roster. He doesn't need to do everything.
Last time I checked, a hockey team is made up of individuals players with each offering certain strengths and have weaknesses. Hughes is more than capable of penalty killing but is already logging 25+ minutes a night. There are other players that play on the Canucks that are suited to PK (currently 12th in the NHL I believe) and can soak up the minutes. There are many players in the NHL that are non-existent offensively but are known and lauded for their PK killing. Point is (as other people have noted), Quinn Hughes could PK (with his hockey IQ, he could do anything, fk put him center lol) but Canucks have other players that can hold the fort and do the job. If Vancouver is around the top 10 in the NHL in PK, I am more than happy deploying Hughes in other parts of the game. Have a great day!!
lol...the above posters beat me to it
It would be one thing if a player couldn't do something, but players don't deploy themselves thus I brought up datsyuk, coaches do that and 5 on 5 play is probably the most important thing to consider anyways right?
That's why the award states best all around Dman, the focus on the PK is misguided here.
None of the 3 Norris finalists are their teams top PK guys right?
He doesn't penalty kill is such an odd complaint. You have a D-man that controls play 5-on-5 and on the PP to an insane degree and is going to play 25 minutes a night. You don't want 2-3 of those minutes taken up on the PK. You want him out when the team is going to do their scoring. The extra 2 or 3 shorthanded goals he might provide with his play just isn't worth the trade off of lesser production 5-on-5/PP.
Could he penalty kill? No doubt he can. People who think he's poor defensively have not bothered to watch him the last couple of seasons. He is a good defender.
Could he penalty kill? No doubt he can. People who think he's poor defensively have not bothered to watch him the last couple of seasons. He is a good defender.
The problem here is that I'm not necessarily arguing that a player must play vs. not play, opinions aside, I'm simply pointing out the factual results of voting.
There is a big difference between being the top guy and not playing at all though.
Since time on ice stats have been tracked (26 seasons I think).....Norris winner was a top pair Dman on PK 16 times. The winners where that was not the case were as follows....huge outliers for Karlsson and Hughes....but even then, the years they won, they still played a bit. I know Hughes is playing a bit this year, but would be another significant drop and a move of the bar significantly here......that said, trends have changed a bit in the last 10 years or so. PK ice time per game for winners that weren't top pair
Lidstrom - 2:40
Hedman - 2:35
Josi - 2:00
Burns - 1:44
Subban - 1:27
Makar - 1:25
Hughes - 0:36
Karlsson - 0:34
Karlsson - 0:34
Karlsson - 0:22
Sorry, but you're just flat out wrong. Columbus was dead last in the league by 10 points a season ago. Vancouver was a Division Winner that is self destructing this season.
That's great but it's already been pointed out that it's a Canucks coaching perspective and not a Hughes problem as he is very good defensively for an elite point producer and the canucks PK ranks 12th right now and if you were the coach would you "waste" or "manage" things differently, ie playing the other PK guys more at ES or on the PP so Quinn could fulfill some metric that you and others think is somehow important?
I mean we saw how crappy and exposed the canucks were when Quinn was out and that small window further builds on his actual Hart case, you know most valuable player.
Please tell us how you would deploy Quinn to make the Canucks a better team.
This pertains to Hart voting how exactly?
Coach of the year award is another thread.
The Award is for the player voted Most Valuable to his team. They are both defenseman who lead their teams in scoring. The significant difference to me is that Columbus has increased their Points% to .559 from .402 last year and that's after their leading scorer from last season was literally killed. Vancouver's Points% has decreased from .665 last year to .560 this season. Even with a 3 game win streak the Canucks are just 5-5-0 in their last 10 games. Columbus is 7-2-1. Werenski has been more valuable to the Blue Jackets who are an improved team than Hughes has been to the Canucks who are a total disappointment with questionable leadership and toxic players.
Why exactly does Werenski get all the credit for the turnaround, and Hughes the blame for the Canucks faltering?
And saying that they're both leading their team in scoring is burying the lede a bit when Werenski leads by two points over his closest teammate, 12 over the second closest, and 22 over the third, and 34 over the closest d-man, compared to Hughes leading by 23, 25, and 25, and 42 respectively.
Maybe the entire colombus team should be nominated for the Masterton then?
Fortunately or unfortunately, these awards are based on what a player is doing this season, and NOT how they're doing this season compares to last season. Otherwise, Jakob Chychrun would have the Norris locked up.
This is illogical reasoning. Unless both rosters remain the same and every other player brings the exact same quality of play over both years, we can’t isolate their impact to suggest that team improvement/decline is related to their individual value this season.
And even if that was the case, it would still only be comparing them to their previous selves, since both players were on their team’s rosters last year. In that case, the team improvement wouldn’t necessarily mean that Werenski is better than Hughes, but Werenski in 24-25 is better than Werenski in 23-24 by a greater amount than Hughes in 24-25 is better than Hughes in 23-24.
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Unfortunately the voters do have a history of preferring the best narratives, and the Blue Jackets improvement, especially in the wake of the loss of Gaudreau, is probably a better narrative than Hughes keeping last year’s division winner afloat as a bubble team.
eviohh26
Registered User
I still think this is a case of correlation doesn’t equal causation. The fact is it’s rare for any defenseman to not play much PK time. This year, out of 187 defensemen who have played at least 30 games, only 33 have averaged fewer than 30 seconds of PK time.
I think it’s fair to bring up in the sense that A) good penalty killers bring value there he doesn’t provide and B) high minute guys who also play the PK might not be as fresh in their other minutes. Quinn’s fine on the PK, but one of the reasons he doesn’t play is because he’s not going to appreciably improve the PK to make it worth taking away from his other minutes. If he were elite on the PK, he’d probably be playing regular minutes there. Still, this is easy enough to account for when comparing him to other defensemen. It’d be absurd to not consider him for the Norris solely because he doesn’t PK, and I doubt any voters are doing so.
eviohh26
Registered User
I'd rather him not out there. Block a shot and break a toe, foot,hand and we are f***ed. We have bigger bodies better at clogging lanes.
That’s fair too, but same goes for the other top pair guys who do. If he was Lidstrom or Pronger or another all time elite type on the PK, I’d have him out there for important kills for sure. But he’s not better enough than the rest of the D to make the risk worth it
If Hughes also did a regular pk shift he'd be playing 27:30 a game in Vancouver, and he already has the 5th highest ice time in the league. On PK big slow guys like Derek Forbot can be effective because you only need to play a simple game: hold position, block the shots, clear the crease, dump it out. As a smaller elite skating dman Hughes is much better utilized getting additional 5 on 5 time, it's not a matter of being "kept off the ice for PK" .
Also voters literally don't care about what any said team, or player did the year before the other poster is just making stuff up at this point.
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