HF Habs: Quebec Hockey

[Naslundforever]

Maybe try growing the game inside the city of Montreal and around it a bit more? The untapped talent pool on the island is unreal. Nobody plays the dam game anymore its a shame

I always wondered why no players come from the island, ever. It’s become a marginal, expensive sport played in the burbs/regions.

 

[salbutera]

Whoever wrote the article clearly forgot about Sacha Boisvert

Who went to US prep school, now USHL w goal of NCAA path vs Q

That’s the ultimate slap in the face for QMJHL, it’s happening more & more often - it’s viewed as higher probability path to make the pros vs Q

I always wondered why no players come from the island, ever. It’s become a marginal, expensive sport played in the burbs/regions.

Then why isn’t it the same for Toronto or Vancouver?

GTHL is the premier tier 1 youth hockey program in the world … w MidFairfield in CT right up there for PeeWee program

 

[Naslundforever]

Who went to US prep school, now USHL w goal of NCAA path vs Q

That’s the ultimate slap in the face for QMJHL, it’s happening more & more often - it’s viewed as higher probability path to make the pros vs Q


Then why isn’t it the same for Toronto or Vancouver?

GTHL is the premier tier 1 youth hockey program in the world …

I agree, so I figure it’s about changing accessibility and promoting the game… Recent hab success with the youth (that playoff run during lockdown had everyone partying) + a young, likeable team is something should be weaponized asap…

Is hockey more accessible in Toronto area for low-med income families? Are there more wealthy people with kids? Is it really just the Q being crap at developing?

 

[Estimated_Prophet]

When politics collides with sports, it's never pretty.
It seems like for some reason, it's all we ever hear from Que and never from other provinces......
Think it may be an overreaction, and the kids in the Q just need to work harder here, and get to the show.........................some of the best players in the game came from teams in the Q
Crosby
Mackinnon
Heicsher
Ehlers
And of course many many more......

There is absolutely a serious issue in Quebec as it is barely producing anything at all. It isn't necessarily a problem with the QMJHL but a problem with the province of Quebec specifically. Due to the weak developmental program in Quebec, the QMJHL has suffered and many of the top kids are opting for prep school instead of playing in the weakest league in the CHL. It sounds counter intuitive but the answer may lie in bringing in more top imports to raise the high water mark in order to keep your own top kids. There is some hope in the relatively near future but there is no debate that it has fallen way behind Ontario and the Western provinces.

Even the 4 players that you mentioned are not from Quebec as 2 are European imports and two are from a tiny town in Cole Harbour Nova Scotia. Lafreniere is the only Quebec born player under 25 that comes to mind as a top of the lineup player, I could be wrong on that but the rest of the top Quebecers are either close to 30 or over 30.

Hopefully the province figures it out as Quebec born players seem to have a certain flair to their game that is missed.....maybe that is just me being old and remembering our glory years lol. As much as I prefer to keep politics out of hockey and am an anglophone I don't think there is anything better in Montreal than a French Canadian superstar leading the team like Lafleur, Richard and Beliveau did. It is just a whole other level of stardom that no other player in any other market can achieve and it is a shame that the odds of finding that again are diminishing year after year with the failures as a province to grow the game.

 

[salbutera]

I agree, so I figure it’s about changing accessibility and promoting the game… Recent hab success with the youth (that playoff run during lockdown had everyone partying) + a young, likeable team is something should be weaponized asap…

Is hockey more accessible in Toronto area for low-med income families? Are there more wealthy people with kids? Is it really just the Q being crap at developing?

David Branch (OHL commish) is very innovative & progressive. Also there’s a strong link that’s been established in terms of luring business investment - Quebec as usual lags in avant garde business thinking.

Mtl Expos would’ve never seen the light of day were it not for Charlie Bronfman stepping in at last minute, as all the Quebecois businessmen Mayor Drapeau had pulled together got cold feet when they had to fork over $$$

Q ownership is pre-historic, I was hoping w Marc Denis, Thibeault, Briere, Gagne all coming in as investors to various programs things would change …. as usual they all got fed up of the dinosaurs & have disengaged to various levels

 

[Harry Kakalovich]

Although I am no longer involved in minor hockey, I was for most of my adult life from coaching, National Coaching Certification Program (Hockey Canada) and association president. I was also involved in the early stages of setting up a competitive high school hockey program that travelled to US based prep schools. I operated mostly in Quebec except for the 8 years I spent in the GTHL.

In my opinion, the reason the GTHL produces more players is quite simply that they identify and cater to the elite at a very young age. That being said, it is done a structure that is not being governed by a provincial association that is trying to cater to both the recreational player and the competitive player. The GTHL is a for profit organization and players are not restricted to where they live - as long as it's within the GTHL territory. They attract players from all over the world. This goes on from minor atom. Of course there are some abuses, or parents that buy there way on teams. But go through the NHL and see how many played for the Toronto Marlies, North York Canadians, Toronto Red Wings etc. High level competition is essential in development. They also group players in single calendar years.

Quebec - well they always have to do thing differently and we can now confirm that over the last 10-15 years, they are failing. 20 years ago, they sort of removed high level competition for Atom. They still persist maintaining a 2 year group per category. These characteristics do not promote elite development.

Don't complain that we are not producing players when the structure is not geared for developing elite talent. Some of the individuals coaching competitive teams have no training in teaching fundamentals, development theory, performance science, physical preparation, etc. Don't complain that it costs a lot of money because all elite athletes in a most sports spend more than hockey players.

I found this post very informative. I was wondering, what is preventing a similar structure to the GTHL being set up in Montreal?

 

[dinodebino]

I agree, so I figure it’s about changing accessibility and promoting the game… Recent hab success with the youth (that playoff run during lockdown had everyone partying) + a young, likeable team is something should be weaponized asap…

Is hockey more accessible in Toronto area for low-med income families? Are there more wealthy people with kids? Is it really just the Q being crap at developing?

The GTA is not the island of Montreal. Most good hockey players from the GTA don’t come from the Scarbs or Brampton, let’s just say that. Nor do they come from the Toronto core. The GTA is wide and huge. Montreal’s younger families (aside from the West Island) have left for both shores, and moving even further away from the island.

You can’t compare both realities. Essentially, the population of the GTA is 2/3rds the population of the province of Qc.

The island of Mtl is poor.

Plus, Hockey Québec is managed by some ‘mononcles’, who have a very provincial view of what constitutes hockey.

This province will never get back its glory. Hockey has become an elite sport, for those who have the dough. And most parents don’t consider hockey a viable form of winter recreational sport anymore, because of the sacrifices it asks.

 

[salbutera]

I found this post very informative. I was wondering, what is preventing a similar structure to the GTHL being set up in Montreal?

My sons MidFairfied team has one kid who’s parents fly him in for games on their private jet from Cali and another from Texas.

Hockeys become an elitist sport. I know someone close to Zayne Parekh’s parents, they were / are able to fork over $100K per year for 3-boys to play elite GTHL hockey including specialized coaching, training, travel etc. His dads a Dr, family could afford it, and mom decided to become stay at home & dedicate to boys hockey schedule from a very young age

As Dino pointed out, Mtl’s poor (relatively), Toronto’s got lots of wealth to draw from a much larger population, same Vancouver

 

[Estimated_Prophet]

The USNTDP is literally the best program at producing hockey talent in the world right now. BC has also been in a "change" mode for a while now too and you're starting to see the talent coming out of there (this will be the second straight draft with a BC born 1st OA pick).

I just don't know what will actually trigger change in Quebec. I would have though the absolute dearth of Quebec-born talent would have been a trigger, but apparently not.

The USNDTP doesn't develop players as much as it simply takes the best players and forms an all star team with the goal of winning international competition. That was the sole intention when the program was formed, this is hardly a secret.

Canada could do exactly the same thing by scooping up all of the top CHL prospects and putting them on the same team and....voila!! They would then have the best developmental program.

If an expansion NHL team was allowed to come in and snag the top players off of all of the teams and get to draft at the top of the draft every year would we consider them to have the best management/development group when they win the Cup every years. Or would it be an obvious elitist collection of players that does not reflect elite development or elite management?

The overall approach of the USNTDP does not mean that the kids will be any better, likely quite the opposite as great prospects are great prospects anywhere they play but the bottom half of the USNTDP lineup are getting significantly less ice time than they would as the best players on their USHL teams. The USNTDP are not bringing in mediocre kids and developing them into stars....they literally never do that. The real development happens in other leagues where kids actually have a chance to get better as opposed to the elite USNTDP kids dunking on USHL teams while their other talented teammates stagnate below them.

 

[Estimated_Prophet]

I found this post very informative. I was wondering, what is preventing a similar structure to the GTHL being set up in Montreal?

You have to remember that Southern Ontario is the hockey mecca of the world and it is not even close. There are tons of arenas and tons of wealthy families willing to prop up for-profit leagues like the GTHL. This is the place on the planet where the most hockey is played and it is little wonder that this is where an organization like the GTHL can thrive.

There is plenty of corruption as I can tell you first hand but it is a great league in that the best kids are going head to head against each other which is the best way to create elite prospects.

 

[Harry Kakalovich]

You have to remember that Southern Ontario is the hockey mecca of the world and it is not even close. There are tons of arenas and tons of wealthy families willing to prop up for-profit leagues like the GTHL. This is the place on the planet where the most hockey is played and it is little wonder that this is where an organization like the GTHL can thrive.

There is plenty of corruption as I can tell you first hand but it is a great league in that the best kids are going head to head against each other which is the best way to create elite prospects.

Could the greater Montreal area put together a similar style league? Maybe it wouldn't be quite as good, but wouldn't it be a step in the right direction?

 

[Captain Mountain]

My sons MidFairfied team has one kid who’s parents fly him in for games on their private jet from Cali and another from Texas.

Hockeys become an elitist sport. I know someone close to Zayne Parekh’s parents, they were / are able to fork over $100K per year for 3-boys to play elite GTHL hockey including specialized coaching, training, travel etc. His dads a Dr, family could afford it, and mom decided to become stay at home & dedicate to boys hockey schedule from a very young age

As Dino pointed out, Mtl’s poor (relatively), Toronto’s got lots of wealth to draw from a much larger population, same Vancouver

You can still develop players without them coming from wealthy families (and there's still definitely plenty of money in Montreal/Quebec). Quebec is not that much poorer than Ontario. And its very wrong to overstate how many good players come from Toronto and/or big money specifically. Cost is an issue across NA and especially Canada.

I'd argue the bigger problem is that Quebec hockey is insular and has tough language barriers. Its much easier for hockey people from Quebec to find opportunities outside Quebec than it is for hockey people outside of Quebec to get opportunities in Quebec. That's not the kind of environment that leads to strong player development.

You can look at youth hockey in the GTA, Lower Mainland or USNTDP, but Quebec is being passed by European countries, some of which are smaller and/or poorer than Quebec.

 

[BLONG7]

So, Hockey Quebec needs to step up their game here guys?
It's very noticeable that very few are making it all the way now........sad for the province and really the country.

 

[NotProkofievian]

The GTA is not the island of Montreal. Most good hockey players from the GTA don’t come from the Scarbs or Brampton, let’s just say that. Nor do they come from the Toronto core. The GTA is wide and huge. Montreal’s younger families (aside from the West Island) have left for both shores, and moving even further away from the island.

You can’t compare both realities. Essentially, the population of the GTA is 2/3rds the population of the province of Qc.

The island of Mtl is poor.

Plus, Hockey Québec is managed by some ‘mononcles’, who have a very provincial view of what constitutes hockey.

This province will never get back its glory. Hockey has become an elite sport, for those who have the dough. And most parents don’t consider hockey a viable form of winter recreational sport anymore, because of the sacrifices it asks.

Hockey is an elite sport for those who have the dough. The WHL is producing again because of the CSSHL, where tuitions range around the 50k mark. I think it's probably that QMAAA is probably just not anywhere as good as the GTHL or CSSHL in either resources or competition.

 

[Estimated_Prophet]

Could the greater Montreal area put together a similar style league? Maybe it wouldn't be quite as good, but wouldn't it be a step in the right direction?

I am not familiar with the inner workings of youth hockey in the Montreal area, perhaps Montreal residents on this board could speak to this with more knowledge than I possess.

Hockey is an elite sport for those who have the dough. The WHL is producing again because of the CSSHL, where tuitions range around the 50k mark. I think it's probably that QMAAA is probably just not anywhere as good as the GTHL or CSSHL in either resources or competition.

I think you mean 5k lol......

 

[salbutera]

I am not familiar with the inner workings of youth hockey in the Montreal area, perhaps Montreal residents on this board could speak to this with more knowledge than I possess.



I think you mean 5k lol......

No 25K regular, 45-60K w billet family i believe

Here in Northeast US, lots of middle income taking 2nd mortgages to subsidize elite hockey for their kids

 

[NotProkofievian]

I am not familiar with the inner workings of youth hockey in the Montreal area, perhaps Montreal residents on this board could speak to this with more knowledge than I possess.



I think you mean 5k lol......

No I mean 50.

 

[OnTheRun]

I found this post very informative. I was wondering, what is preventing a similar structure to the GTHL being set up in Montreal?

Aside from the money and the logistics... It would very much help if HQ-Région Montréal (HQRM) wasn't about to be dissolved for being a bunch of corrupted crooks.

Chronique | Le conflit entre Hockey Montréal et la fédération se judiciarise

Hockey Québec est engagé dans un différend juridique avec son mandataire de la région de Montréal.

ici.radio-canada.ca

 

[Number 57]

I have been saying for a while that the QMJHL needs to die and the U18/U16/U14, etc. model dies with it also. Just go all out with high school, cégep and university hockey just like they do in the US.

Who cares about the Q and the CHL? They are for profits franchises, their goal is not to develop players. And most of the top players now come from Europe, USA or Maritimes. No wonder we can't get Québécois players drafted into the 1st round.

Furthermore, to combat the lack of elite players from the island of Montreal, simply set up 2 elite programs funded by the government or Hockey Quebec. Free registrations and equipment for every single kid in the program. Attract every single top athletes that is playing basketball or soccer right now. Voilà, case closed.

 

[Andrei79]

Could the greater Montreal area put together a similar style league? Maybe it wouldn't be quite as good, but wouldn't it be a step in the right direction?

I don't think Montreal can keep up with other big cities in terms of elite leagues and the associated costs. However, I think that if they built a better program with schools, then that would definitely be a way to encourage kids and parents. There are already high school leagues, but if the focus goes there in Montreal, there would be a lot of interest and they could have more control over who gets hired as coaches.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

I have been saying for a while that the QMJHL needs to die and the U18/U16/U14, etc. model dies with it also. Just go all out with high school, cégep and university hockey just like they do in the US.

Who cares about the Q and the CHL? They are for profits franchises, their goal is not to develop players. And most of the top players now come from Europe, USA or Maritimes. No wonder we can't get Québécois players drafted into the 1st round.

Furthermore, to combat the lack of elite players from the island of Montreal, simply set up 2 elite programs funded by the government or Hockey Quebec. Free registrations and equipment for every single kid in the program. Attract every single top athletes that is playing basketball or soccer right now. Voilà, case closed.

They could simply do this but they won't . Public schools barely even have hockey programs anymore on the island

 

[Habnot]

I found this post very informative. I was wondering, what is preventing a similar structure to the GTHL being set up in Montreal?

Theoretically they could but they would have to break away from Hockey Quebec. This would be difficult and costly. That being said, if they join with Laval and South Shore, they might have enough players to break away.

But most are missing the point. The current structure could work much better if they removed some of the current barriers - the first being limiting contact to bantam age and going back to a single year of eligibility compared to having 24 month categories - just as examples. Hockey Quebec is a cesspool administratively. Jocelyn Thibeault just quit after barely a year because he figured out that the regions have too much power and nothing will ever change.

Finally, in the last 5 years - high school hockey has made quite a comeback in Quebec. This is now an option for players not wanting to play in a Hockey Quebec team.

 

[dcyhabs]

I agree, so I figure it’s about changing accessibility and promoting the game… Recent hab success with the youth (that playoff run during lockdown had everyone partying) + a young, likeable team is something should be weaponized asap…

Is hockey more accessible in Toronto area for low-med income families? Are there more wealthy people with kids? Is it really just the Q being crap at developing?

I know people who have kids in Quebec that play high level hockey. Not many, (none?) with real nhl chances, but if it were your kid would you really choose the Q? Billet your kid and have them play in a league where adult players will fight kids, where education is barely a consideration, and where the chances of an NHL career are minimal(not because it’s the Q, because few players from anywhere make it).

If you’re kid goes to college they can, if they choose, get a real education so they have options beyond hockey. They play full cage and keep their teeth. Fighting isn’t common. There is some support for the kids, too, teachers and coaches who have obligations other than team profits.

For the few kids who have a real shot at getting drafted high, all two or three of them per year, the Q is a real option. Beyond those few kids, and some optimists, it’s mostly exploiting clueless players and parents so that junior team owners can profit.

 

[Harry Kakalovich]

Theoretically they could but they would have to break away from Hockey Quebec. This would be difficult and costly. That being said, if they join with Laval and South Shore, they might have enough players to break away.

But most are missing the point. The current structure could work much better if they removed some of the current barriers - the first being limiting contact to bantam age and going back to a single year of eligibility compared to having 24 month categories - just as examples. Hockey Quebec is a cesspool administratively. Jocelyn Thibeault just quit after barely a year because he figured out that the regions have too much power and nothing will ever change.

Finally, in the last 5 years - high school hockey has made quite a comeback in Quebec. This is now an option for players not wanting to play in a Hockey Quebec team.

Yeah, using the school system would make a lot of sense. I know Stanstead College has been building its hockey program. Prep schools in the States seem to do ok in feeding players to the NCAA. It seems like a fair amount of high level Quebec kids play in the USHL. I'm not sure the route to get there? It used to be that Shattuck's in Minnesota had a good hockey prep program. I guess that is the alternate path to take for high level Quebec kids then, right? US prep and then NCAA? So kind of bypass Quebec Hockey entirely.

 

[CHwest]

There was a time when almost every kid in Canada played hockey of some sort. Road hockey on every block, outdoor rinks every 10 blocks, kids just being kids. Indoor rinks and video games changed all that. The rich kids only wanted to play indoors and the rest left for their living rooms and TV's to play video games. The volunteers who looked after the block rinks got discouraged because hardly any kids showed up any more and those rinks disappeared. The only way to explore and develop skills is to just have fun and let your mind imagine what you can do with your body. Soon the only way to partake in any form of hockey was expensive indoor rinks and a lot could not participate because of money.