Quebec City trying to keep the flame alive

[Takuto Maruki]

I see Chrdan is doing the same looping arguments he used to do in the minor hockey boards.

Forever evergreen.

Also, what does any of this have to do with QC specifically?

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Years later the NHL then, with a wink and a nod, urged Quebec City to build a modern NHL-caliber arena

When did they do this?

 

[Tawnos]

I see Chrdan is doing the same looping arguments he used to do in the minor hockey boards.

This specific point that (I assume) he's trying to make is not a new one on BoH and is the reason he's on my ignore list. It's more about me than it his him. If I see that argument, I just can't help myself and I have to respond.

The existence of minor league teams is no barrier to major leagues expanding. Period.

 

[Yukon Joe]

When did they do this?

Back in 2010-2011 when funding for what because Centre Videotron were drawn up.

Now let's be clear - the league never promised Quebec City a team. Bettman said so explicitly. But it was kind of hinted that if there was a modern arena the league would look favourably on returning to Quebec City.

 

[KevFu]

This specific point that (I assume) he's trying to make is not a new one on BoH and is the reason he's on my ignore list. It's more about me than it his him. If I see that argument, I just can't help myself and I have to respond.

The existence of minor league teams is no barrier to major leagues expanding. Period.

I relate to "can't help myself"

 

[KevFu]

Back in 2010-2011 when funding for what because Centre Videotron were drawn up.

Now let's be clear - the league never promised Quebec City a team. Bettman said so explicitly. But it was kind of hinted that if there was a modern arena the league would look favourably on returning to Quebec City.

Yeah, but isn't that a big pile of duh? The NHL kind of learned their lesson on the "going somewhere without an arena and hoping a deal would get done."

Starting with the MIN, ATL, CBJ, NASH expansions, and continuing with the VGK and SEA expansions, it was "you can get your team to coincide with the arena being done."

Utah's the only exception, and that's just because Delta Center is better than Mullett; Smith already got the tax provisions to fund a future arena approved and the political support for a new arena project (either brand new or massive reno) is blatant and relatively assured by their Olympic bid.


So telling Quebec a new arena goes a long way toward getting an NHL team isn't really misleading anyone, because it's a requirement. Another requirement is having the money.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Yeah, but isn't that a big pile of duh? The NHL kind of learned their lesson on the "going somewhere without an arena and hoping a deal would get done."

Starting with the MIN, ATL, CBJ, NASH expansions, and continuing with the VGK and SEA expansions, it was "you can get your team to coincide with the arena being done."

Utah's the only exception, and that's just because Delta Center is better than Mullett; Smith already got the tax provisions to fund a future arena approved and the political support for a new arena project (either brand new or massive reno) is blatant and relatively assured by their Olympic bid.


So telling Quebec a new arena goes a long way toward getting an NHL team isn't really misleading anyone, because it's a requirement. Another requirement is having the money.

But I didn't say "mislead".

I said "the NHL then, with a wink and a nod, urged Quebec City to build a modern NHL-caliber arena" which I'll stand by that.

 

[Ernie]

Even if the NHL suggested to Quebec that building an arena could help them get a team, and had an intention of doing so, obviously there was no guarantee.

Once the CAD crashed, financially it made zero sense to continue with it though.

 

[KevFu]

But I didn't say "mislead".

I said "the NHL then, with a wink and a nod, urged Quebec City to build a modern NHL-caliber arena" which I'll stand by that.

Yeah, I didn't mean to sound accusatory toward you.

I was just pointing out that I'd lean more toward "That's on you. Kansas City built an arena with no tenant and you saw like four teams visit Kansas City for leverage in their arena deals...." because the NHL stated the obvious.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

We can talk about supposed promises until we're blue in the face. The real important issue is that there doesn't appear to be a party in Quebec willing to pay even half of what the NHL is expecting for an expansion team nowadays.

 

[RayMartyniukTotems]

Back in 2010-2011 when funding for what because Centre Videotron were drawn up.

Now let's be clear - the league never promised Quebec City a team. Bettman said so explicitly. But it was kind of hinted that if there was a modern arena the league would look favourably on returning to Quebec City.

And looking favorably to you is not a sign that yes it will happen! Quebec probably didn't like the 500 Million asked for admittance...where Vegas was happy to pay because in Nevada they fricking print money...Seattle pays 650 Million and Smith gets a wink wink deal and pays supposedly 1.3 Billion? So Quebec city will need to ante up 1.5 Billion same as Atlanta?

 

[RayMartyniukTotems]

Even if the NHL suggested to Quebec that building an arena could help them get a team, and had an intention of doing so, obviously there was no guarantee.

Once the CAD crashed, financially it made zero sense to continue with it though.

I think what happened was that Vegas poked their noses in there and with that the NHL was all over it...and it became paramount that the NHL make sure that the Team succeed right out of the gate regardless if they left some teams hamstrung with bad contracts. And Quebec was probably told/ promised the next round of Expansion...which didn't happen and the next move of a sad sack franchise(Arizona) and the excuse of East and West numbers,next it will be well Atlanta is bigger than you and...its become fricking ridiculous really...just add Quebec city and Atlanta in successive years say in 2026 and 2027...then they can add Houston and/or San Diego and Greater Toronto and/or Hamilton in 2031...Milwaukee,Cincinnati,Portland and Indianapolis later! But lets get Quebec city in already its become such a fallacy and lets stop talking about growing the game cause Bettman is Growing the game in the US and trying to kill the game in Canada is that what the Little man is after

Yeah, but isn't that a big pile of duh? The NHL kind of learned their lesson on the "going somewhere without an arena and hoping a deal would get done."

Starting with the MIN, ATL, CBJ, NASH expansions, and continuing with the VGK and SEA expansions, it was "you can get your team to coincide with the arena being done."

Utah's the only exception, and that's just because Delta Center is better than Mullett; Smith already got the tax provisions to fund a future arena approved and the political support for a new arena project (either brand new or massive reno) is blatant and relatively assured by their Olympic bid.


So telling Quebec a new arena goes a long way toward getting an NHL team isn't really misleading anyone, because it's a requirement. Another requirement is having the money.

Personally I think its a crock of shit and Little man Buttcrack Bettman was leading Quebec down the Garden road probably all along

 

[Yukon Joe]

I think what happened was that Vegas poked their noses in there and with that the NHL was all over it...and it became paramount that the NHL make sure that the Team succeed right out of the gate regardless if they left some teams hamstrung with bad contracts. And Quebec was probably told/ promised the next round of Expansion...which didn't happen and the next move of a sad sack franchise(Arizona) and the excuse of East and West numbers,next it will be well Atlanta is bigger than you and...its become fricking ridiculous really...just add Quebec city and Atlanta in successive years say in 2026 and 2027...then they can add Houston and/or San Diego and Greater Toronto and/or Hamilton in 2031...Milwaukee,Cincinnati,Portland and Indianapolis later! But lets get Quebec city in already its become such a fallacy and lets stop talking about growing the game cause Bettman is Growing the game in the US and trying to kill the game in Canada is that what the Little man is after

Honestly, I think you can blame Steve Ballmer for Quebec City not getting a team (kidding / not kidding).

So the Thrashers relocate to Winnipeg in 2011 for $170 million. At that same time Quebec City agrees to build a new arena to NHL specs - obviously hoping to get the Nords back.

So the franchise value is somewhat set around $170 million, maybe a bit more.

But here's where Steve Ballmer comes in. The LA Clippers come on the market in 2014 due to the Donald Sterling scandal. It's the LA CLippers - they've always been a second-rate franchise. But Ballmer buys them for an unheard of $2 billion dollars. This drastically ups the prices on NAm sports franchises.

So in 2015 the NHL opens its expansion process. The price is now $500 million - almost triple what the Thrashers went for 4 years earlier. This is well outside Pierre-Karl Peladeau's price point. He submits a bid - but it's "deferred".

Nine years later and the price for a franchise has now shot to $1.2 billion. And Quebec City is now priced out of the market.

 

[BMN]

But here's where Steve Ballmer comes in. The LA Clippers come on the market in 2014 due to the Donald Sterling scandal. It's the LA Clippers - they've always been a second-rate franchise. But Ballmer buys them for an unheard of $2 billion dollars. This drastically ups the prices on NAm sports franchises.

FWIW, even if you take into account the number of teams splitting the fee *and* inflation, the $500 mil *dwarfs* the expansion fee that immediately preceded it:

Blue Jackets and Wild come in to make 29 and 30. *Assuming* (but this may have not been the case) that the other 28 teams split the fee, the cost was $80 million in 2000 USD, which is $111.5m in 2016 USD (2016 being when Vegas joined). So 111.5/28 = nearly $4m for each team already there.

Vegas paid $500 million...$16.7 million for each team already there! Basically the league quadrupled the cost at the most generous possible interpretation.

 

[tucker3434]

I think what happened was that Vegas poked their noses in there and with that the NHL was all over it...and it became paramount that the NHL make sure that the Team succeed right out of the gate regardless if they left some teams hamstrung with bad contracts. And Quebec was probably told/ promised the next round of Expansion...which didn't happen and the next move of a sad sack franchise(Arizona) and the excuse of East and West numbers,next it will be well Atlanta is bigger than you and...its become fricking ridiculous really...just add Quebec city and Atlanta in successive years say in 2026 and 2027...then they can add Houston and/or San Diego and Greater Toronto and/or Hamilton in 2031...Milwaukee,Cincinnati,Portland and Indianapolis later! But lets get Quebec city in already its become such a fallacy and lets stop talking about growing the game cause Bettman is Growing the game in the US and trying to kill the game in Canada is that what the Little man is after


Personally I think its a crock of shit and Little man Buttcrack Bettman was leading Quebec down the Garden road probably all along

Quebec got screwed by timing, not Bettman. If they had been ready in '11, maybe they'd have gotten the Thrashers. But after 2011, the small market expansion kinda stopped making financial sense.

Still, if they find an investor willing to put $1.5-2b down, the NHL would give them more consideration than they would otherwise deserve, due to their history. I just don't think that investor exists. If they did, why did they bid on the Yotes? That was the best deal anyone will ever get again.

 

[jigglysquishy]

But here's where Steve Ballmer comes in. The LA Clippers come on the market in 2014 due to the Donald Sterling scandal. It's the LA CLippers - they've always been a second-rate franchise. But Ballmer buys them for an unheard of $2 billion dollars. This drastically ups the prices on NAm sports franchises.

I do think in general we are in a sports valuation bubble.

They are no longer businesses, but toys. And value is becoming independent of revenue or profit.

At some point it will come back down to earth.

 

[Yukon Joe]

FWIW, even if you take into account the number of teams splitting the fee *and* inflation, the $500 mil *dwarfs* the expansion fee that immediately preceded it:

Blue Jackets and Wild come in to make 29 and 30. *Assuming* (but this may have not been the case) that the other 28 teams split the fee, the cost was $80 million in 2000 USD, which is $111.5m in 2016 USD (2016 being when Vegas joined). So 111.5/28 = nearly $4m for each team already there.

Vegas paid $500 million...$16.7 million for each team already there! Basically the league quadrupled the cost at the most generous possible interpretation.

But that's why I point to Steve Ballmer as being the cause.

The CBJ and WIld expansion was what 15+ years earlier? Ballmer buying the Clippers was 1 year earlier.

 

[Kimota]

Quebec got screwed by timing, not Bettman. If they had been ready in '11, maybe they'd have gotten the Thrashers. But after 2011, the small market expansion kinda stopped making financial sense.

Still, if they find an investor willing to put $1.5-2b down, the NHL would give them more consideration than they would otherwise deserve, due to their history. I just don't think that investor exists. If they did, why did they bid on the Yotes? That was the best deal anyone will ever get again.

lol yea right. He has screwed them countless times. The Quebec premier before Aubut sold the team was ready to invest and keept them there. But Aubut was not interested and Bettman essentialy said to him "get out of there".

Also there's way to know if there's really people or not that would be willing to come up with a Billion. I could see a few entities willing to do so. Quebecor alone, I don't know.

 

[tucker3434]

lol yea right. He has screwed them countless times. The Quebec premier before Aubut sold the team was ready to invest and keept them there. But Aubut was not interested and Bettman essentialy said to him "get out of there".

Also there's way to know if there's really people or not that would be willing to come up with a Billion. I could see a few entities willing to do so. Quebecor alone, I don't know.

One of Jacques Parizeau's quotes at the time was that he wanted the Nordiques to stay, "but not at any price." Just because there was an offer of investment, doesn't mean it was enough to make sense.

Were there any known competing local bids at the time? Bettman usually does try to keep sales local, but if out-of-towners are the only ones willing to write the big checks, then it is what it is.

If they've got the money, then why didn't they throw their hats in the ring this year? They've supposedly been organized for a decade now. Why weren't they elbowing their way to the front with their checkbook? Things could always change. Maybe the next Apple or Google is being developed in some QC garage right now. But It just doesn't seem like the current crop of investors have the stomach for the current price tag.

 

[BMN]

One of Jacques Parizeau's quotes at the time was that he wanted the Nordiques to stay, "but not at any price." Just because there was an offer of investment, doesn't mean it was enough to make sense.

And besides that, you STILL need a buyer other than Aubut for it to be the league or Bettman's fault. It'd be one thing if a 1995 equivalent of an Alain Bouchard was sitting there with a checkbook saying "I'll take Parizeau's help!" But Parizeau didn't have to convince Bettman that his offer of support was enough, he had to convince Aubut. And Parizeau was only going to dedicate so much time to these talks...he had a referendum to campaign for.

I cited Bouchard before as I think he's probably the only Quebecer that truly has the "F.U. money" at the current ballooning rate. And he's not the one with the arena...

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Even if the NHL suggested to Quebec that building an arena could help them get a team, and had an intention of doing so, obviously there was no guarantee.

Once the CAD crashed, financially it made zero sense to continue with it though.

I am opposed to spending tax money for new arenas and stadiums to lure a team.

That being said, if you are gonna do it, you better have league;s guarantee you'd get a team if conditions are met.

 

[KevFu]

Honestly, I think you can blame Steve Ballmer for Quebec City not getting a team (kidding / not kidding).

But here's where Steve Ballmer comes in. The LA Clippers come on the market in 2014 due to the Donald Sterling scandal. It's the LA CLippers - they've always been a second-rate franchise. But Ballmer buys them for an unheard of $2 billion dollars. This drastically ups the prices on NAm sports franchises.

This is outstanding insight. I did not connect those dots previously, but you're absolutely right.

 

[KevFu]

I do think in general we are in a sports valuation bubble.

They are no longer businesses, but toys. And value is becoming independent of revenue or profit.

At some point it will come back down to earth.

The main reason I disagree with that as a "general principle" is because they are a finite resource with value outside the "revenue" streams.

(I DO agree with the "back to earth" aspect where it can't rise this insanely forever due to the lack of humans who can afford to buy them. So there will be some regression in the growth rate).

But that isn't a bubble, that's just supply/demand.


You're right that the value of the franchise far exceeds the profit/loss of the franchise, even over time. If you make $10 million for 30 years, that's $300m in profit, so you're "losing money" buying that business for $2 billion.... except you can sell it in 30 years for more than you paid for it. You're making the money more on the sale than the operation.

But there's OTHER advantages to owning a franchise as well. At least in the US. I think Canadian fans tend to view owning a team as a business and not the tax shelter they are in the US. Very rudimentary but the US tax code allows owners to offset profits of one business with a loss by another. This is to encourage growth: They want rich people with successful businesses starting more businesses. Sports franchises are PERFECT to be the "losing business" because you can you lose a tiny bit of money on purpose by signing an extra player to your payroll, while the structure of sports ensures your business is still worth a ton of money and going up. When a regular business is losing money, it's a sign of a problem with the market: Like Kodak losing money because of digital cameras isn't assured to be worth $4 billion in 30 years, but a sports franchise IS because what's going to make sports go away?


Anyhow, I think you're totally right that this extreme growth can't keep going forever with constant expansion because there's just so many billionaires who can afford to buy a franchise. The more it goes up, the fewer potential owners you have.

 

[carjackmalone]

if you looked at the 20 potential NHL Expansion options go a step further and rank those 20 teams in terms of not just population but as a Hockey MARKET. A few years back when Brian Burke was GM of the Canucks he used to throw out this line from time to time about how Vancouver is the world’s Third largest Hockey market. Based on youth Hockey,adult recreational and hockey first fans above all other Sports in their city.im Curious as to where Quebec City lies in the world hockey markets ranking system.

 

[Bucky_Hoyt]

We can talk about supposed promises until we're blue in the face. The real important issue is that there doesn't appear to be a party in Quebec willing to pay even half of what the NHL is expecting for an expansion team nowadays.

And, I think it's fair to call out that Winnipeg never gets a team without Thomson's purse strings loosening in 2011. If that scenario played out today, probably in the same position Quebec is now in.