Quebec City trying to keep the flame alive

[Fatass]

Oh this fake narrative has been in here a long time. It’s why you hear absurd notions that Regina, Saskatoon, & Halifax get mentioned in addition to QC.

And why would you prefer Edmonton over St Louis? That’s absurd.


That’s another myth

Hockey is by far the number sport interest in Canada. It’s well down the list south of the border. A city like Winnipeg will have 1 million hockey fans. Are there 1 million hockey fans (with the passion of Canadians for the game) in the whole US? Hockey is a niche sport in the US. Yes, there are passionate fans, but the number pales in comparison to up here. Even so there is more opportunity to make profit in the US markets.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Edmonton over St Louis isn't absurd at all. Sure, St Louis is larger (metro pop 2.8 mil to 1.4 mil), but Oilers are the dominant #1 sports presence in the market. St Louis the Blues are number two behind the Cardinals, and used to be #3 behind the Rams as well.

Edmonton metro is about 1.7 million now.

 

[KevFu]

Hockey is by far the number sport interest in Canada. It’s well down the list south of the border. A city like Winnipeg will have 1 million hockey fans. Are there 1 million hockey fans (with the passion of Canadians for the game) in the whole US? Hockey is a niche sport in the US. Yes, there are passionate fans, but the number pales in comparison to up here. Even so there is more opportunity to make profit in the US markets.

I don't disagree with your overall point.

But there ARE well over a million fans with the same passion as Canadian fans in the whole United States. That's laughable. Like anyone who is an Islanders fan, Sabres fan, Coyotes fan, Jackets fan... definitely has to have the same kind of passion or they would have given up.

I mean, Buffalo is no different than Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa or Quebec except also having an NFL team and being on the other side of the bridge from Canada. Their financials are pretty much what you'd expect if Edmonton was also supporting an NFL team.

Really what we're talking about here is a combo of popularity and market saturation.


I've got a list of market sizes that I made by combining CSA's and MSAs to what's really applicable to the sports universe; and the number of Big Five teams each market has. The goal of it is so I can sound smart about which city could easily or would struggle to support a team they don't have in any of the sports by looking at the amount of dollars per fan each city has to pay to support their teams to league average.

If you sorted it by lowest cost to support their teams, 5 of the top 7 are Canadian because I don't have the CFL or minor league teams included (Which I should add).

And if I were to add a column for "tenure of hockey team" and include that in the weight, it would probably line up to what you all think the NHL rankings are for a combo of financial health/power and fan bases.

 

[edog37]

People suggesting Saskatoon, Regina or Halifax are widely shot down - including by Canadians.

Edmonton over St Louis isn't absurd at all. Sure, St Louis is larger (metro pop 2.8 mil to 1.4 mil), but Oilers are the dominant #1 sports presence in the market. St Louis the Blues are number two behind the Cardinals, and used to be #3 behind the Rams as well.

And numbers don't lie - Edmonton revenue of $281 mil, St Louis revenue of $184 million.

If the Oilers went away tmr, the league wouldn’t be hurt. Losing St Louis would hurt. The NHL didn’t want any of the old WHA teams, they were forced to take them. St Louis was part of the ‘67 expansion & very much desired.

Regarding market position, the comparison couldn’t be more disingenuous. CFL is a niche football league whereas MLB is a economic force. Only Toronto has other teams in the Big 4 leagues. It’s complete apples to bar stools overall. For the NHL to dominate in a market with those characteristics isn’t impressive, it happens by default.

 

[edog37]

Hockey is by far the number sport interest in Canada. It’s well down the list south of the border. A city like Winnipeg will have 1 million hockey fans. Are there 1 million hockey fans (with the passion of Canadians for the game) in the whole US? Hockey is a niche sport in the US. Yes, there are passionate fans, but the number pales in comparison to up here. Even so there is more opportunity to make profit in the US markets.

You’ve clearly never been to the US with such an absurd take. The US has the most registered amount of hockey players in the world.

Ice hockey players per country worldwide 2023 | Statista

In the 2022/23 season, the United States had the most registered ice hockey players out of any country worldwide.

www.statista.com

The US has tens of millions of serious hockey fans. Probably equates to the entire population of Canada. The Pens had a million people at the Stanley Cup parade back in 2017 alone.

Hardly a niche sport.

 

[Fatass]

You’ve clearly never been to the US with such an absurd take. The US has the most registered amount of hockey players in the world.

Ice hockey players per country worldwide 2023 | Statista

In the 2022/23 season, the United States had the most registered ice hockey players out of any country worldwide.

www.statista.com

The US has tens of millions of serious hockey fans. Probably equates to the entire population of Canada. The Pens had a million people at the Stanley Cup parade back in 2017 alone.

Hardly a niche sport.

The US has a lot of kids playing soccer too. That doesn’t mean the country has a passion for the game. Same as hockey. Canada will always have more passion for hockey than down south. Several Euro countries have greater passion for hockey than the US. The US is a huge market. There will be opportunity to make more money for clubs. But that doesn’t equal a passion for the game. Americans are more passionate for high school football than hockey.

 

[kaiser matias]

If the Oilers went away tmr, the league wouldn’t be hurt. Losing St Louis would hurt. The NHL didn’t want any of the old WHA teams, they were forced to take them. St Louis was part of the ‘67 expansion & very much desired.

Regarding market position, the comparison couldn’t be more disingenuous. CFL is a niche football league whereas MLB is a economic force. Only Toronto has other teams in the Big 4 leagues. It’s complete apples to bar stools overall. For the NHL to dominate in a market with those characteristics isn’t impressive, it happens by default.

St. Louis was only part of the 1967 expansion because Arthur Wirtz owned/controlled the St. Louis Arena, and wanted someone to occupy it in return for his support of expansion. There wasn't even a bid from St. Louis originally, the league approved the city and then found someone to buy the team.

 

[BMN]

A city like Winnipeg will have 1 million hockey fans.

Winnipeg doesn't actually have one million people so this is an interesting statistical calculation.

Re:........whatever the argument of the past few posts is, the "passion for the game" thing is nice and all but it only contributes a portion to the business argument. If I have one super passionate fan vs. ten casual fans...which is going to result in a greater net profit? (That's a 100% rhetorical question....I literally have no answer for it other than to say there *is* a line where the ratio eventually tilts in favour of the casuals, it's just an argument over what that line is).

One thing we don't talk enough about is that it is much less about the people or even the geography and more about the simple value of the currencies. Edmonton > St. Louis sounds ridiculous but if everything was done in Edm with American currency/taxes, the "half the population" factor would instantly be mitigated by the lack of a Cardinals-esque competitor for attention.

But if wishes were horses, we all would ride...

 

[joelef]

The US has a lot of kids playing soccer too. That doesn’t mean the country has a passion for the game. Same as hockey. Canada will always have more passion for hockey than down south. Several Euro countries have greater passion for hockey than the US. The US is a huge market. There will be opportunity to make more money for clubs. But that doesn’t equal a passion for the game. Americans are more passionate for high school football than hockey.

Idk with the demographic changes of Canada I’m not so sure anymore

 

[CanadienShark]

You’ve clearly never been to the US with such an absurd take. The US has the most registered amount of hockey players in the world.

Ice hockey players per country worldwide 2023 | Statista

In the 2022/23 season, the United States had the most registered ice hockey players out of any country worldwide.

www.statista.com

The US has tens of millions of serious hockey fans. Probably equates to the entire population of Canada. The Pens had a million people at the Stanley Cup parade back in 2017 alone.

Hardly a niche sport.

You clearly don't understand the difference in population size. Relative to other sports, hockey is fairly niche in the US.

 

[BMN]

You clearly don't understand the difference in population size. Relative to other sports, hockey is fairly niche in the US.

Per the stats @edog37 provided, 0.16% of the American population participates in hockey. What would be interesting is how much that number goes up if you isolate the most active population equivalent. For e.g., at a glance, it appears to shoot up to 1% in Minnesota, where there's a much greater interest.......that's still short of the 1.4% of the overall Canadian population that participates.

That said, as @Fatass pointed out, the number of registered players as a standalone statistic doesn't prove much about the "niche"/"non niche" value of hockey as a consumer sport in either country. There are over 14 million listed soccer participants in the United States, as compared to 5.5 million that report participating in gridiron football. You're deceiving yourself if you think soccer is the less "niche" of the two.

 

[edog37]

The US has a lot of kids playing soccer too. That doesn’t mean the country has a passion for the game. Same as hockey. Canada will always have more passion for hockey than down south. Several Euro countries have greater passion for hockey than the US. The US is a huge market. There will be opportunity to make more money for clubs. But that doesn’t equal a passion for the game. Americans are more passionate for high school football than hockey.

. The most registered hockey players in the world doesn’t have a passion for the game. That’s one of the most ridiculous statements made.

Bro, we have ten times the population of Canada. We probably have more fans than Canada has people.

The US is surpassing Canada in junior hockey is the bottom line. Who won the World Juniors this past Dec? It was our 5th title in 14 years & 6th overall.

You can tell yourself whatever you want, but we are more than your equal in this sport.

 

[Fatass]

. The most registered hockey players in the world doesn’t have a passion for the game. That’s one of the most ridiculous statements made.

Bro, we have ten times the population of Canada. We probably have more fans than Canada has people.

The US is surpassing Canada in junior hockey is the bottom line. Who won the World Juniors this past Dec? It was our 5th title in 14 years & 6th overall.

You can tell yourself whatever you want, but we are more than your equal in this sport.

Again, there is a great difference between kids playing a sport and a country’s passion for that sport. As already pointed out in this thread there are a lot more registered soccer players in the US than football players. Yet it’s clear to everyone soccer is a niche sport when it comes to fan passion and football is king. In Canada hockey is the king for fan passion. In the US hockey is down the ladder of fan passion. It’s certainly below football (nfl, college, and high school) basketball (nba, and college) Major League Baseball. And likely there are more sports where there is a wider base of passionate fans than hockey. Up here it’s hockey, and it ain’t even close.

 

[LPHabsFan]

Stop. Feeding. The. Troll

 

[CanadienShark]

Per the stats @edog37 provided, 0.16% of the American population participates in hockey. What would be interesting is how much that number goes up if you isolate the most active population equivalent. For e.g., at a glance, it appears to shoot up to 1% in Minnesota, where there's a much greater interest.......that's still short of the 1.4% of the overall Canadian population that participates.

That said, as @Fatass pointed out, the number of registered players as a standalone statistic doesn't prove much about the "niche"/"non niche" value of hockey as a consumer sport in either country. There are over 14 million listed soccer participants in the United States, as compared to 5.5 million that report participating in gridiron football. You're deceiving yourself if you think soccer is the less "niche" of the two.

I don't recall comparing it to soccer.

 

[edog37]

Again, there is a great difference between kids playing a sport and a country’s passion for that sport. As already pointed out in this thread there are a lot more registered soccer players in the US than football players. Yet it’s clear to everyone soccer is a niche sport when it comes to fan passion and football is king. In Canada hockey is the king for fan passion. In the US hockey is down the ladder of fan passion. It’s certainly below football (nfl, college, and high school) basketball (nba, and college) Major League Baseball. And likely there are more sports where there is a wider base of passionate fans than hockey. Up here it’s hockey, and it ain’t even close.

And again, we probably have more fans than Canada has population.

 

[Fatass]

And again, we probably have more fans than Canada has population.

40 million hockey fans in the US? Of course not. Regardless, it’s the level of passion for hockey that is king in Canada and the 2 of Clubs down south.

 

[edog37]

40 million hockey fans in the US? Of course not. Regardless, it’s the level of passion for hockey that is king in Canada and the 2 of Clubs down south.

Yes there are. You clearly are delusional

 

[Takuto Maruki]

why do I get the feeling one of the belligerents in this argument is wholly dedicated to bagging on Canada in general

 

[Jason316]

And again, we probably have more fans than Canada has population.

That's because we close to 400 million ppl vs 40 million for Canada lol

In Oregon and California nobody cares about hockey. It's a blimp on the radar. Washington state was in the same boat for 100 years.

NFL, NBA, MLB are American leagues while NHL is the unique North American league

 

[saskriders]

Yes there are. You clearly are delusional

If he thinks there are 40 million hockey fans in Canada he is delusional.

 

[New User Name]

. The most registered hockey players in the world doesn’t have a passion for the game. That’s one of the most ridiculous statements made.

Bro, we have ten times the population of Canada. We probably have more fans than Canada has people.

The US is surpassing Canada in junior hockey is the bottom line. Who won the World Juniors this past Dec? It was our 5th title in 14 years & 6th overall.

You can tell yourself whatever you want, but we are more than your equal in this sport.

USA hockey has certainly made amazing progress thanks to the USNTDP/ the NHL and other initiatives geared to children re hockey (some thanks to a lot of ex Canadians coaching there after they retire and decide to stay in the US) and I for one will agree top end talent is probably equal but please refrain from the BS many of your fellow citizens spout about being better than anyone else at everything else. aka more than your equal.

 

[Jets4Life]

Hockey is by far the number sport interest in Canada. It’s well down the list south of the border. A city like Winnipeg will have 1 million hockey fans. Are there 1 million hockey fans (with the passion of Canadians for the game) in the whole US? Hockey is a niche sport in the US. Yes, there are passionate fans, but the number pales in comparison to up here. Even so there is more opportunity to make profit in the US markets.

There are arguably more hockey fans in USA, considering it has 8.5 times the population of Canada.

 

[Bondurant]

Loud noises.

 

[edog37]

USA hockey has certainly made amazing progress thanks to the USNTDP/ the NHL and other initiatives geared to children re hockey (some thanks to a lot of ex Canadians coaching there after they retire and decide to stay in the US) and I for one will agree top end talent is probably equal but please refrain from the BS many of your fellow citizens spout about being better than anyone else at everything else. aka more than your equal.

When you have done it, it’s not bragging.