Problems With This Team

[Hi ImHFNYR]

Everyone thought the "curse" died in '94.

Things that have happened since then make what happened from 1941-1994 look minor. And it's not all Sather.

Yes in my post I am certainly acknowledging this. it's actually horrifying what's happened around this organization. No death or career ending thing is the fault of any1 in the organization. but clearly that stuff combining with Sather doesn't help. And more to the point I was making the Nash trade had nothing to do with those things so to blame the Nash trade is beyond myopic

 

[mrhockey193195]

Do people honestly think the ECF team would've done just as we'll the next year? Everything went right that year they wouldn't of had a repeat performance in 2012/2013.

I don't think it's out of the question. Dubinsky's offensive production was bound to be better, Stepan progressed incredibly well in the 2012-13 season, other guys certainly got better with more experience...yes, a lot came together in 2012, but we had a young team that was trending upwards. There was no need for big changes.

And 99% of NYR fans were for the Nash trade. Hindsight is 20/20.

I hate being that guy, but I 100% was not in favor of trading Dubinsky and Anisimov for Nash. I just want you to know that I'm not one of those people who's just pretending like I thought it was a bad idea all along. I warmed up to the trade a bit last season when Nash was dominating, but now seeing how listless this team is and how they lack passion, I'm going back to my original opinion.

On my part, hindsight falls in the "I wish we traded Gabby for Nash straight up" category.

People also foolishly thought Kreider would continue to crush after his 1st playoffs. That made Dubinsky expendable in Sathers eyes. Now it wasn't a good decision but most people thought it was back then.

Don't get me wrong, I hate Sather but this is blind hatred at its worst.

This is the part I agree with...I don't love Sather and I don't like the decisions he's made, but the hypocrisy of some of our fans is staggering. Sather did pretty much exactly what they were asking for (Traded some depth for a superstar in Nash, replaced some of our "offensively anemic" fourth liners for fourth liners that are "better offensively", fired Torts, etc.)

 

[SKjEi o2]

People act like the ECF were world beaters. We got taken to the 7th game by two teams who were "worse" then us. Not to metion even if we did make it past the devils we would have been destroyed by the kings.

I know we've had one cup in 74 years but just because that team had a bit of success let's not over hype what they actually accomplished.

I absolutely agree with this.

That team was so lucky. Plus Prust would've wanted $2M to resign and Fedotenko was getting older. That team was going to change one way or the other.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

I hate being that guy, but I 100% was not in favor of trading Dubinsky and Anisimov for Nash. I just want you to know that I'm not one of those people who's just pretending like I thought it was a bad idea all along. I warmed up to the trade a bit last season when Nash was dominating, but now seeing how listless this team is and how they lack passion, I'm going back to my original opinion.

Trading those guys has not caused the symptoms and issues you are discussing.

 

[RangersHank*]

Yep, said the same thing in my thread

 

[noupf]

Trading those guys has not caused the symptoms and issues you are discussing.

yea......you're wrong. that trade helped facilitate this teams steady decline over the last few years.

 

[mrhockey193195]

Trading those guys has not caused the symptoms and issues you are discussing.

You don't think that trading Dubinksy (and to a lesser extent Anisimov), and losing Prust to free agency were major blows to the heart and soul and relentlessness of the team?

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

You don't think that trading Dubinksy (and to a lesser extent Anisimov), and losing Prust to free agency were major blows to the heart and soul and relentlessness of the team?

Nash trade, keep it to nash trade the prust thing is completely separate. No the nash trade did NOT gut this team's "heart and soul".

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

yea......you're wrong. that trade helped facilitate this teams steady decline over the last few years.

Provide evidence. You're wrong. I already showed why this is a ridiculous notion. Things that are unrelated to the Nash trade caused this team to fall off like this

 

[SKjEi o2]

Provide evidence. You're wrong. I already showed why this is a ridiculous notion. Things that are unrelated to the Nash trade caused this team to fall off like this

What caused the current team then in your opinion?

 

[HatTrick Swayze]

Haven't seen a thread about this. Every thread seems to touch upon this at one point or another. Let's see what everyone thinks the problems of this team are.

For me, there are several.

First and foremost, talent aside, this team does not hold the concept of camaraderie. Hockey is a team sport, and that escapes this particular group of guys.

Mentality - this group lacks resilience. There is no urgency for this team to win games. There is no accountability. No motivation to play above average. It's a shame. There is a certain prestige to playing as a professional athlete... let alone as one for one of the most historic teams in NY. Where is the will to win in every game? Is there no sense of representation in these players for a city that's supposed to characterize greatness? This group of guys is mentally soft. You can't be a successful team without resilience. Every elite team, every elite athlete, has this common denominator - mental fortitude.

Physicality - this group lacks grit, lacks toughness. There's a thread about this. It's not a coincidence i'm mentioning it here. It's not about adding the Brashears and the Orr's of the world to mindlessly fight another team's goon. No. This is about defending your manhood. If someone disrespects you, if someone takes liberties with you or one of your team mates (especially in a manner that compromises safety and health), where is the response? I'm not saying this was the right thing to do, but Erikson is no where near the player to the Bruins that Nash is to the Rangers, and Thornton brutally assaulted the guy responsible. You think that doesn't send a message to the rest of his team mates? Thornton is about to be suspended for games, likely without pay. His name will be dirtied league wide. Yet this is the direct type of action that brings a locker room together. Brings guys together. Makes everyone fight for each other, rather than just for themselves.

Alain Vigneault - I know Tortorella wasn't going to lead us to the promise land. He alienated his players, was stubborn to the point that it did his team harm, and was incapable of understanding the sport of hockey with how it is meant to be played. But AV isn't going to lead us there either. This is NYC. There is a personality to this city... a gritty, tough, and irrepressible character. There needs to be the recognition by this coach that this ever present personality needs to be represented by the team he sends out there. AV is emotionless. He's passive. He's not the coach we need, as a city, and as a team, to succeed.

Michael Del Zotto - For all of his faults as a player, this is not a complaint about him. This is a complaint about how management has managed to take focus away from winning, away from the players to succeed (which should be primary) with this media distraction. Every day everyone talks about Del Zotto and where he should go, when he should go, how terrible of a fit he is, etc. I'm sure this chatter and sentiment trickles down to the players. It serves as a distraction. It unfocuses the players from what should be their primary objective - win. This isn't how first class organizations should act. Either trade the guy or force the coach to give him permanent playing time. Vigneault is essentially becoming Tortorella part 2. He's becoming bigger than the team by continuing to jerk our players around with their place in the lineup. You can't have that.

Finally, talent and construction of the team - This is an unbalanced team. It is not in need of a full overhaul, but there need to be changes. There need to be more players with mental toughness. There needs to be an even distribution of talent and complementary skill on every line. The blame falls on the GM in this regard. In terms of players that exemplify a certain strong mentality.... Sather eradicated this team from the only players that cared. They may not have been the most talented players but they held this team together fundamentally. Prust, Rupp, Fedotenko, Dubinsky... these players cared about the well being of the team and their fellow team mates. We are devoid of that character trait now. How about depth and balance? Pyatt? Pouloit? Dumpster diving for a franchise with endless capital and resources? Unacceptable. This is a failure of the GM to assemble a balanced team with a winning attitude.

I'm tired of the self-pitying I see from fans and this team with the results we're seeing from this year's Rangers team. Good teams find a way to overcome adversity. Refereeing may not help this team's causes, unlucky bounces may be the final nail in the coffin in some games, whatever other excuses you can think of... but this team has already decided to have a losing mentality. Don't expect much out of this team until that changes.

Amen. You hit the nail on the head with all of the specific issues...unfortunately they are a byproduct of a completely ****ed management team and "organizational culture". I put that in quotations because there doesn't seem to be one. It all filters down and causes the issues you perfectly outlined...

 

[Riverdale]

So what if fans wanted this trade or that trade. If fans wanted this coach hired or that coach fired.

It doesn't matter.

Most sports fans are reactionary. That is why most sports fans wouldn't make a great GM. It isn't as if whatever fans want on HF (or anywhere else) magically happens.

Sather made those decisions, and if it hurts the team it is HIS fault not the fault of the ****ing fanbase. "this is what you wanted" BS is so annoying. Ya, most of us wanted Nash. Because that Torts team couldn't score either. That has been a problem for years.

 

[Ex Officer Friendly]

I think it's shorter if we talk about the positives

 

[noupf]

Provide evidence. You're wrong. I already showed why this is a ridiculous notion. Things that are unrelated to the Nash trade caused this team to fall off like this

provide evidence? The current lack of intensity on this team, theres your evidence. AA was a great two way center that had the ability to score and played a tough game.....now he's gone. Dubinsky (even though i didnt like him all that much ), played with more heart and soul than almost anybody on this current roster and could score.....now hes gone. Nash has been under-whelming to say the least.....now, he's here. We have done a sh-t job of plugging the holes on this team since the nash trade. The fact that AA and Dubinsky were all part of the core that came up from hartford with our remaining core......well, thats the definition of a team willing to play hard for each other. Now we have guys with not much to link themselves to each other besides the jersey they wear. Sometimes thats just not quite enough.....

There's my evidence.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

provide evidence? The current lack of intensity on this team, theres your evidence. AA was a great two way center that had the ability to score.....now he's gone. Dubinsky (even though i didnt like him all that much ), played with more heart and soul than almost anybody on this current roster.....now hes gone. Nash has been under-whelming to say the least.....now, he's here. We have done a sh-t job of plugging the holes on this team sice the nash trade.

There's my evidence.

This does not prove in anyway shape or form that the nash trade caused all the guys on the rangers to play like garbage. This is what is called circumstantial at best and it's often not utilized as evidence if someone has what is actually a solid case

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

What caused the current team then in your opinion?

In the post you quoted I said that I already discussed these things. previous page in thread

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

I showed up at my moms house for dinner. Her 14 year old dog died 1 year later therefore I caused the dogs death

 

[SKjEi o2]

So what if fans wanted this trade or that trade. If fans wanted this coach hired or that coach fired.

It doesn't matter.

Most sports fans are reactionary. That is why most sports fans wouldn't make a great GM. It isn't as if whatever fans want on HF (or anywhere else) magically happens.

Sather made those decisions, and if it hurts the team it is HIS fault not the fault of the ****ing fanbase. "this is what you wanted" BS is so annoying. Ya, most of us wanted Nash. Because that Torts team couldn't score either. That has been a problem for years.

I'm just sick of the hypocrisy. People would've assaulted Sather back then if he didn't trade for Nash. And now they're calling him an idiot for making the trade.

 

[HFsNumber1Heel]

This team had some success and was fun to watch for two seasons and then swung for the fences with the home run. It didn't work.

It happens all the time in sports. Look at the Islanders now with Vanek, that trade changed their chemistry.

Same thing happened to the post-1979 Rangers. They traded for Beck and that changed the chemistry, and then guys like JD and Tzachuk had career ending injuries. Yeas, they made it to the ECF or whatever it was considered back then in 1981 but that was it. They finally began to blow it up after the Ken Morrow goal in 1984 and by the 1986 Cinderella run, maybe had 2-3 guys left from the 1979 Cup Finals team.

This team needs a major overhaul from top to bottom. Richards needs to go. Nash is here to stay but I doubt he's gonna be much other than a streaky player. Zuc and Hags are fine, and then yes, Cally will probably stay too.

The bright spot is that the D can be rebuilt in two years, and the goaltending is fine.

 

[aufheben]

I showed up at my moms house for dinner. Her 14 year old dog died 1 year later therefore I caused the dogs death

Dat facile analogy.

There was roster overhaul after a very successful season. I, at the time, thought the team wouldn't miss a beat; or at least, I thought getting an elite player would overcome any deficiencies.

 

[Riverdale]

I'm just sick of the hypocrisy. People would've assaulted Sather back then if he didn't trade for Nash. And now they're calling him an idiot for making the trade.

I get that. I try to take things on HF not that seriously. Heck, even if I am posting something pessimistic it is usually half serious and half hyperbole. Hindsight is 20/20 also.

I supported the Nash trade. I think losing Dubi/AA hurt the chemistry a little but it wasn't something that I was honestly worried about. I thought this team was strong enough mentally to bounce back. Losing Prust was worse. But he is overpaid and who knows if he will be nearly as effective a few years from now on that contract.

I hated the Gaborik trade at first. Started to like it but now I am unsure. Bringing all of these Blue Jackets players onto the Rangers seems to have changed the culture a ton.

 

[mrhockey193195]

This does not prove in anyway shape or form that the nash trade caused all the guys on the rangers to play like garbage. This is what is called circumstantial at best and it's often not utilized as evidence if someone has what is actually a solid case

There's no way anyone can prove anything. I cannot prove that losing Dubinksy really hurt this team, just like you cannot prove that losing Dubinsky didn't hurt the team. My opinions are based off of what I see, and subsequent speculation on my part.

The leap that I make is a simple one - this team was renowned for its work ethic and relentless effort in 2011-12, and two of the biggest leaders in that regard were Dubinsky (despite his offensive struggles) and Prust, along with Cally, Fedotenko, Boyle, Girardi, etc. We lose a bunch of those guys, and the following year we see that identity start to slip away. That much, I think you would agree with me.

Now, your main point is that it was really just Dubinsky for Nash, and the other guys were lost for other reasons. Fair point. I can't come up with a good explanation, other that I firmly believe that Dubinsky was just that valuable to the team, and that getting another superstar that had a reputation for being inconsistent with his effort was the epitome of a move that the 1997-2004 Rangers would make.

I obviously can't prove that, just like you can't disprove that.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

Dat facile analogy.

There was roster overhaul after a very successful season. I, at the time, thought the team wouldn't miss a beat; or at least, I thought getting an elite player would overcome any deficiencies.

It's a ridiculous analogy for an equally ridiculous arguement

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

There's no way anyone can prove anything. I cannot prove that losing Dubinksy really hurt this team, just like you cannot prove that losing Dubinsky didn't hurt the team. My opinions are based off of what I see, and subsequent speculation on my part.

The leap that I make is a simple one - this team was renowned for its work ethic and relentless effort in 2011-12, and two of the biggest leaders in that regard were Dubinsky (despite his offensive struggles) and Prust, along with Cally, Fedotenko, Boyle, Girardi, etc. We lose a bunch of those guys, and the following year we see that identity start to slip away. That much, I think you would agree with me.

Now, your main point is that it was really just Dubinsky for Nash, and the other guys were lost for other reasons. Fair point. I can't come up with a good explanation, other that I firmly believe that Dubinsky was just that valuable to the team, and that getting another superstar that had a reputation for being inconsistent with his effort was the epitome of a move that the 1997-2004 Rangers would make.

I obviously can't prove that, just like you can't disprove that.

LOL we went from "That's my evidence" to throwing in the towel and admitting you can't prove anything.
We're making progress now if we can get to admitting that we are assigning waaaaay too much blame to the Nash trade we'll have made a breakthrough. Simple is correct it does not take anything substantial into account. It's a very shallow attempt to lay the blame erroneously at the feet of one thing. If there was a top ten list of reasons why the team fell apart like this the Nash trade might be number 10. If percentages were assigned it might be 5% responsible

oops you werent the dramatic thats my evidence dude. There are statistics that show losing Dubs did not hurt the team. In fact looking at on ice performance it seems Nash was a definitive step up. The problem is the front office and the team around him bc it has been assembled poorly at best as I previously brought up> Christ it's 10:30 pm and I'm stuck in this ridiculous discussion again. ugh. Team sucks. Look at the other post a HELLUVA LOT is responsible and none of it has anything to do with the Nash trade

 

[SKjEi o2]

I get that. I try to take things on HF not that seriously. Heck, even if I am posting something pessimistic it is usually half serious and half hyperbole. Hindsight is 20/20 also.

I supported the Nash trade. I think losing Dubi/AA hurt the chemistry a little but it wasn't something that I was honestly worried about. I thought this team was strong enough mentally to bounce back. Losing Prust was worse. But he is overpaid and who knows if he will be nearly as effective a few years from now on that contract.

I hated the Gaborik trade at first. Started to like it but now I am unsure. Bringing all of these Blue Jackets players onto the Rangers seems to have changed the culture a ton.

+1

Columbus is a losing culture. The players we aquired don't know how to win. That is why this team is so lackluster IMO. We replaced heart and soul with losers.

Now I don't think we would've won with the heart and soul guys but we should've taken a different path looking back.