Power vs L. Hughes vs Edvinsson vs Clarke

[mphmiles]

There's a balance to be struck between valuing analytics (good!) and viewing them as gospel and completely ignoring every other stat that exists in the sport (bad!).

The issue is that there's no correlation in things like hits and +/- in being effective. Some of the best defensive players in the NHL like Slavin, Tanev, and Brodin average about 1 hit every other game.

 

[Breakers]

Power has lost his poise in his own zone

huge liability.

 

[newfy]

I wont blame people for taking Hughes over Edvinsson, but I'm not trading the 6'7 unicorn that can be dominant defensively in the hardest minutes in the league as of right now for him.

I would blame people for taking Power or Clarke in this poll though

 

[Golden_Jet]

There's a balance to be struck between valuing analytics (good!) and viewing them as gospel and completely ignoring every other stat that exists in the sport (bad!).

Poster prefers soft teams based on history.

 

[dgibb10]

Hughes first 10 games or so were not good, so no,, not excellent all year.

"Luke Hughes has been excellent this year and has the skating to the point where the sky is the limit, with a rock solid year last year as well"

Where do you read the words "excellent all year" in this

But anyways, luke and pesce took a bit to get adjusted. Still good, especially defensively, but nothing special at that point as they improved. They had a pretty awful game against NYI on November 9th, and since then they, especially luke, have dominated for the last month, especially in terms of generating offense.

Hughes advanced stats should be better because he has a better team.

Put Simon on nj and Luke on the red wings and how do their numbers look now?

If you let that logic slide, it would apply to every single other player on detroit and suddenly you come to the insane conclusion that Detroit is better than NJD.

Edvinsson has a better partner than Hughes on the ice with him every second of his time regardless.

Pipe down about teammates unless you want to admit Pesce as better than Seider

Because If I had to bet, I'd expect you to say you'd take Detroits line 1, 3 and 4 over NJDs.

And I GUARANTEE you think Seider is lightyears ahead of Pesce.

 

[dgibb10]

They were pretty good - 51.2 xG% after missing training camp and the first 9 games of the season due to injury is pretty decent, especially under a brand new coach and system. And he was playing with a brand new partner who also missed training camp and the first 9 games of the season due to injury.

The puck just wouldn't go in for him - 1.4% on ice sh% in those 10 games.

The important thing to note is that the "struggles" early weren't even from bad defense. It felt more like they were trying to keep things simple as they got healthy, not taking chances.

It was that the offensive generation was mediocre.

The pairing had a disaster game vs NYI about a month ago, but since then have been dominant and Luke's ability and willingness to create offense has exploded.

 

[Pavels Dog]

The issue is that there's no correlation in things like hits and +/- in being effective. Some of the best defensive players in the NHL like Slavin, Tanev, and Brodin average about 1 hit every other game.

Same goes for some of the other stats thrown around though. Corsi and xGF% etc. are not defensive stats. Some of the worst defensive players in the NHL have really nice underlying metrics.
My argument is simply that you can't just look at 1 or 2 stats as the be-all-end-all. Use every stat in context and you'll have a decent estimation of a player - hopefully in combination with the good old eye test.

Because If I had to bet, I'd expect you to say you'd take Detroits line 1, 3 and 4 over NJDs.

View attachment 944161View attachment 944162
And I GUARANTEE you think Seider is lightyears ahead of Pesce.

You're comparing a lineup with Jack Hughes at 2C vs. one with Marco Kasper at 2C and trying to make the argument that Luke Hughes has worse support around him? Interesting strategy.

 

[mphmiles]

Same goes for some of the other stats thrown around though. Corsi and xGF% etc. are not defensive stats. Some of the worst defensive players in the NHL have really nice underlying metrics.
My argument is simply that you can't just look at 1 or 2 stats as the be-all-end-all. Use every stat in context and you'll have a decent estimation of a player - hopefully in combination with the good old eye test.

Why would we let irrelevant data influence the perception of the quality of a player whatsoever?

Johnny Gaudreau led the league in +/- in 2021-22 and was 1045th out of 1050 a year later. Can you conclude anything from that isolated to him? In any observation you remove as much irrelevant data as possible, not seek it out.

 

[dgibb10]

Same goes for some of the other stats thrown around though. Corsi and xGF% etc. are not defensive stats. Some of the worst defensive players in the NHL have really nice underlying metrics.
My argument is simply that you can't just look at 1 or 2 stats as the be-all-end-all. Use every stat in context and you'll have a decent estimation of a player - hopefully in combination with the good old eye test.


You're comparing a lineup with Jack Hughes at 2C vs. one with Marco Kasper at 2C and trying to make the argument that Luke Hughes has worse support around him? Interesting strategy.

Not the claim I am making at all.

I am pointing out the stupidity of your claim about help when I know that you think Edvinsson has a SIGNIFICANTLY better partner, and that if I actually went and asked you about the forwards, you would favour a significant number of detroits.

I can almost guarantee that you think Seider is significantly better than pesce, and that Detroits 1st and 4th lines have better players than NJD. (I'm less confident about line 3, but I still expect that you think it's the case).

Answer the question.

Pesce vs Seider

and each of the lines.

And yet you are claiming that there is a MASSIVE gap in help around him favouring Luke.

And if we compared Nico to Larkin you'd say the same thing and so on and so on and so on.

It's a weak argument by fans of bad teams to make themselves feel better. Blame it on having "less help" and then apply that to every single player on your team.

 

[ShakenNotStirred]

You're comparing a lineup with Jack Hughes at 2C vs. one with Marco Kasper at 2C and trying to make the argument that Luke Hughes has worse support around him? Interesting strategy.

Only advanced stats matter. Nothing else.

These teams will be playing in future playoff games and if this guy does this:

Imagine what edvinsson is gonna do.

 

[norrisnick]

Not the claim I am making at all.

I am pointing out the stupidity of your claim about help when I know that you think Edvinsson has a SIGNIFICANTLY better partner, and that if I actually went and asked you about the forwards, you would favour a significant number of detroits.

I can almost guarantee that you think Seider is significantly better than pesce, and that Detroits 1st and 4th lines have better players than NJD. (I'm less confident about line 3, but I still expect that you think it's the case).

Answer the question.

Pesce vs Seider

and each of the lines.

And yet you are claiming that there is a MASSIVE gap in help around him favouring Luke.

And if we compared Nico to Larkin you'd say the same thing and so on and so on and so on.

It's a weak argument by fans of bad teams to make themselves feel better. Blame it on having "less help" and then apply that to every single player on your team.

I love how fervently you're trying to make someone else's argument. Just so you can call it weak.

 

[dgibb10]

I love how fervently you're trying to make someone else's argument. Just so you can call it weak.

It's an argument I've seen hundreds of times.

Fan of bad team uses this excuse for whatever player is being currently discussed to justify why they are better than guy on good team.

I asked him a question, he ducked it.

He wants to claim a lack of help for edvinsson, but doesn't want to criticize Seider (the biggest element of "help" for a dman being your partner), criticise the top line in detroit, say the 4th line is worse than AHLers that NJD has been trotting out for basically all of luke's time since getting healthy, or even say that the 3rd line in detroit is worse than NJD.

Jack Hughes must be the best player in NHL history to make up for all of that to the point where the help is so astronomically different that it's that major of an impact.

 

[norrisnick]

It's an argument I've seen hundreds of times.

Fan of bad team uses this excuse for whatever player is being currently discussed to justify why they are better than guy on good team.

I asked him a question, he ducked it.

I'm sure you type them up all the time...

 

[Jersey Fresh]

Only advanced stats matter. Nothing else.

These teams will be playing in future playoff games and if this guy does this:

View attachment 944190

Imagine what edvinsson is gonna do.

Well, I’m pretty confident New Jersey will be playing in future playoff games. Detroit, on the other hand…

 

[Beerz]

Power has lost his poise in his own zone

huge liability.

He never had it.

 

[Beerz]

I'd take Luke Hughes here without hesitation, he's had great progression this year too. Powers has kind of stagnated and it makes you wonder is it him or that organization / culture in Buffalo. Who knows, thought he'd be much better at this point.

Edit : and I f***ing hate the Devils.

Meh.. he has progressed offensively.. defensively he has stagnated or even regressed.

 

[ShakenNotStirred]

Well, I’m pretty confident New Jersey will be playing in future playoff games. Detroit, on the other hand.

Do you honestly believe, with what Detroit has cooking, that they won't make a playoff appearance in the future?

Or is it just hyperbole?

Maybe new jerseys window closes in the next few years just as Detroit's is opening up.

 

[SJinNewJersey]

Meh.. he has progressed offensively.. defensively he has stagnated or even regressed.

You don't have to admit you don't watch Devils games.

 

[Xirik]

Do you honestly believe, with what Detroit has cooking, that they won't make a playoff appearance in the future?

Or is it just hyperbole?

Maybe new jerseys window closes in the next few years just as Detroit's is opening up.

quit whining, you have no right to complain after the previous post.

 

[Beerz]

You don't have to admit you don't watch Devils games.

My post is about Owen Power

 

[Jersey Fresh]

Do you honestly believe, with what Detroit has cooking, that they won't make a playoff appearance in the future?

Or is it just hyperbole?

Maybe new jerseys window closes in the next few years just as Detroit's is opening up.

They’ve been cooking for quite a while now. Might want to check the recipe.

 

[TBF1972]

Do you honestly believe, with what Detroit has cooking, that they won't make a playoff appearance in the future?

Or is it just hyperbole?

Maybe new jerseys window closes in the next few years just as Detroit's is opening up.

the devils are build around the center combo of hischier/hughes. they will turn 26 and 24 this season. their most talented d-man is luke hughes and they have nemec still in the ahl. to be honest devils fans are currently not concerned about a closing window.

 

[Hisch13r]

Do you honestly believe, with what Detroit has cooking, that they won't make a playoff appearance in the future?

Or is it just hyperbole?

Maybe new jerseys window closes in the next few years just as Detroit's is opening up.

Devils window will outlast Detroit’s. If Detroit’s ever even opens up to begin with.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Hughes advanced stats should be better because he has a better team.

Put Simon on nj and Luke on the red wings and how do their numbers look now?

Luke leads the entire league in xG% among defenseman (>200 mins) at 60.1%. Playing on a good team obviously helps, but he takes that team from good to great when he's on the ice. That's not an easy thing to do.

Edvinsson plays on a bad team. But they are an average team with him on the ice, which is incredibly impressive for a "rookie" defenseman. But I think taking a team from good to great is harder to do than taking a team from bad to average.

I'm a huge Edvinsson fan BTW, have been for years. As expected, he's been a dominant defender right from the start. He's the best "rookie" D in the league this year IMO (unfortunate that his eligibility got ruined by playing a handful of games in the prior two seasons). If he were eligible, he probably would have my vote for the Calder at the end of the year.

Hughes and Edvinsson go 1-2 in a redraft IMO.

 

[newfy]

They’ve been cooking for quite a while now. Might want to check the recipe.

Yeah Detroits obviously down, but when NJD have won one playoff series the last 12 years, missed the playoffs 10 times, and missed the playoffs last year... I wouldn't be flexing too hard