Post-Game Talk: Post game Leaf/Jets

[blues10]

Glad to see nothing changes around here.
Nice to see Stanley get some NHL action. There may be some promise there.
Glad to see Maurice juggle his lines around in game.
Helle is Helle.
Positive that Wheeler came off the ice on his own when he was gassed with a minute left.

Build off the positives. Let’s see where we are after 10 games. If the division is as bad as most on here believe it to be we should be able to make the playoffs while getting some of the younger guys experience and then try and make a run.

Ottawa is a tough out and the season will not be over if things don’t go well tomorrow.

 

[blueandgoldguy]

Hard to say where we are right now. I think the North Division is by far the worst in the NHL, so we could squeek in, who knows. And it's hard to condemn the team after a 1-1 start with 4 good periods and 2 terrible ones.

Falling back on the track record of this club, its current players, and management, tho, it's hard to see this team putting things together as assembled. I'm honestly a little shocked at how quickly our team was hollowed out. That 2nd period was hot, smelly garbage.

Not even close. As usual, the North Division is bringing up the rear. 5 of the worst teams in the NHL with LA, Anaheim, San Jose, Minnesota, and Arizona. Having Colorado, St. Louis and Las Vegas in the division does not compensate for that awfulness.

 

[AKAChip]

I did not say Samberg was worse than any of these players -
Disagree with my POV but don't change it.
I wouldn't bring in either of our top d prospects into the situation we were up against tonight - and I've already explained why so there's no point in you and I repeating ourselves as if it would make a difference.

I guess I just fundamentally disagree with the idea that there’s any real downside to Samberg being thrown into any of these games. If you wait for the perfect situation to put a rookie defenceman into the lineup, you’ll be waiting a long time. Would you put him in one of the next three games all against Ottawa? Seems like a pretty cushy spot and there’s still basically no way he plays in any of them barring catastrophic injury.

 

[AKAChip]

he old
not sure why everyone expects him to play like its 2016....
scheif, connor, ehlers and laine have to start carrying this team on offense... they are all in their primes now

People don’t expect him to play like 28 year old Wheeler. The anger most of us have towards him is related to the role he’s being thrust into, not the player himself. There are very few top line 34 year old players in the NHL for a reason.

 

[Gabe Kupari]

If Ottawa sweeps us... Do we see a firing?

 

[JetsFan815]

Again, we don’t know how Niku would have fared if given a regular role coming off that AHL season. Is he an NHL player now? No he almost certainly is not and will never be but you don’t develop appropriately with the kind of treatment Niku was given. And even if his overall numbers ended up being worse than say Sbisa’s, who cares? Then they’re both bad but at least you gave a shot to someone who might have ended up good rather than someone who had no shot.

I bring up his numbers because you are so confidently asserting "would he have been demonstrably worse than guys like Sbisa, Bitteto, Dahlstrom or whichever other bum we had in that role?". When the answer to the question when you look at actual data (as opposed to your emotional reaction towards Maurice) is unambiguously that he would very likely have been much much worse than those guys. Sbisa sucks but Sbisa has been orders of magnitude better statistically than Niku. In fact for any d-man that has played for the Jets in the last 10 years for a minimum 200 mins, no one has worse relative stats than Niku does. Hockey players are not magic, we understand what the development curve of players looks like. D-men who are the age Niku is right now and was last season is right around the time when they are peaking and based on everything we know a player at Niku's age is likely to be much better than a player at Niku's age 2 years ago. So if he is not an NHL player at 24, logic dictates that barring some injury he would not have been an NHL player at 21 and most likely much worse than he is now.

As far as Maurice being vindicated goes, he’s in a win-win situation. If Niku doesn’t pan out, he’s vindicated for not playing him earlier. If he does, he made the right call by keeping him out of the lineup until he’s 24. Give me a break.

Maurice is vindicated because all the data shows that he was right in his deployment of the player. It is very likely he saw things in practice and deployed the player accordingly. If Niku or any other player that Maurice has not given a chance to goes on and accomplishes something with another team he will get shit on. But that hasn't happened.

 

[AKAChip]

Not even close. As usual, the North Division is bringing up the rear. 5 of the worst teams in the NHL with LA, Anaheim, San Jose, Minnesota, and Arizona. Having Colorado, St. Louis and Las Vegas in the division does not compensate for that awfulness.

Colorado, Vegas and St Louis are better than any North Division team so at the absolute bare minimum, it’s a wash. Ottawa is probably the second worst team in the league right now and I’m not convinced any North team outside of Toronto is in the top half of the league.

 

[snowkiddin]

If Ottawa sweeps us... Do we see a firing?

No. Maurice is safe.

 

[Gabe Kupari]

People don’t expect him to play like 28 year old Wheeler. The anger most of us have towards him is related to the role he’s being thrust into, not the player himself. There are very few top line 34 year old players in the NHL for a reason.

Niku = bad example of why Maurice is a problem.

Wheeler = perfect example of Why Maurice is a problem.

 

[bustamente]

Maurice is going nowhere this year, whatever happens to him will be decided in the off season

 

[29from27and55]

Just like game 1 we fell behind and have to make a comeback adding to Scheifele's playing time and i don't have a problem with that especially in a short season. I don't agree with Maurice to always keep Scheifele and Wheeler together though and they should have been split up tonight. Niku needs to come out next game, he has skills but no idea how to play defense and that's bad for a defenseman. Stanley played ok and that's good. Ehlers looked like he was playing hurt to me , not the normal Ehlers that's for sure. Hopefully we play better tomorrow and have Laine back, man did we miss him.

ehlers has the flu so i give him a pass

 

[Gabe Kupari]

Maurice is going nowhere this year, whatever happens to him will be decided in the off season

At this point both Maurice and the Jets are going nowhere.

 

[BullLund]

Don't know what people really expected out of Niku, he was a 7th round pick for a reason. Never heard any buzz about him in Finland or anything. Had a good season in AHL which will probably be the highlight of his career. Glad he got to play in the big leagues but it's time to move on.

Anyway, I think it's clear that trading Laine would've been a bad move (unless the Jets got a similar piece in return). The offense just isn't there without him. Even if he isn't having a great night, he's a guy that the other team always has to worry about.

 

[objectiveposter]

People don’t expect him to play like 28 year old Wheeler. The anger most of us have towards him is related to the role he’s being thrust into, not the player himself. There are very few top line 34 year old players in the NHL for a reason.

agreed he is no longer a top line player on a contender... he is now a 2nd line player.... this is where guys like connor ehlers laine have to play with more killer instinct... play so well that it forces maurice to permanently break up his scheif wheeler top line love fest.

 

[AKAChip]

I bring up his numbers because you are so confidently asserting "would he have been demonstrably worse than guys like Sbisa, Bitteto, Dahlstrom or whichever other bum we had in that role?". When the answer to the question when you look at actual data (as opposed to your emotional reaction towards Maurice) is unambiguously that he would very likely have been much much worse than those guys. Sbisa sucks but Sbisa has been orders of magnitude better statistically than Niku. In fact for any d-man that has played for the Jets in the last 10 years for a minimum 200 mins, no one has worse relative stats than Niku does. Hockey players are not magic, we understand what the development curve of players looks like. D-men who are the age Niku is right now and was last season is right around the time when they are peaking and based on everything we know a player at Niku's age is likely to be much better than a player at Niku's age 2 years ago. So if he is not an NHL player at 24, logic dictates that barring some injury he would not have been an NHL player at 21 and most likely much worse than he is now.



Maurice is vindicated because all the data shows that he was right in his deployment of the player. It is very likely he saw things in practice and deployed the player accordingly. If Niku or any other player that Maurice has not given a chance to goes on and accomplishes something with another team he will get shit on. But that hasn't happened.

When you have basically no on ice development time after your breakthrough AHL season at 22, it’s very plausible that he’s a worse player now than he was then. And the fact remains that playing a young player who may or may not be bad is preferable to playing a player who is known to be bad. You have very little to lose in that situation even if the results don’t go the way you want them to.

And it’s extremely unfair to suggest that Maurice is right to treat young players the way he does because no young player that he has jerked around has gone on to have success anywhere else. Like, duh? When this organization is done with them they are 25-26 years old and teams have their own prospects to give roles to. Maurice damaging prospects to the point where no one wants them is hardly vindication.

 

[FonRiesen]

Jets 0-4 on the PP
Leafs 1 for 1 on the PP
See the difference between a well coached team and a poorly coached team.

It's almost like our only PP strategy is use Laine to shoot, or use Laine as a decoy...

 

[Gabe Kupari]

Don't know what people really expected out of Niku, he was a 7th round pick for a reason. Never heard any buzz about him in Finland or anything. Had a good season in AHL which will probably be the highlight of his career. Glad he got to play in the big leagues but it's time to move on.

Anyway, I think it's clear that trading Laine would've been a bad move (unless they got a similar piece in return). The offense just isn't there without him.

Thing is if your O revolves around 1 player it's not the missing player that's the problem.. it's the game the team is being coached to play. We are a high end skill team who plays their best at high tempo pace are being forced to dump n chase. Same old story here. Nothing changes.

 

[AKAChip]

agreed he is no longer a top line player on a contender... he is now a 2nd line player.... this is where guys like connor ehlers laine have to play with more killer instinct... play so well that it forces maurice to permanently break up his scheif wheeler top line love fest.

Hard to think that there’s anything any of those three players can do to unseat Wheeler from the top line (though only Laine plays the same position). Wheeler is honestly best suited to the third line with PP usage at this point in his career and he’d thrive there. Rather than get caved in as a first liner or break even as a second liner. And there’s no shame in being demoted at age 34. It doesn’t diminish his accomplishments as a player to acknowledge what’s staring us all in the face.

 

[DRW204]

From 2017-2019 niku was not one of the 3 best RD on the roster (trouba, buff, myers) so not sure who you're playing him over. Even on the left side we had Morrissey, enstrom, kulikov and Chiarot who are probably better. He had his shot last year but got hurt and threw a tantrum at the coaching staff. His stats are some of the worst in the nhl. He has spurts of great pick moving abilities but certainly doesn't out weigh his short comings. He's a success story as a 7th rd pick but def not a top 4 dman, might even need to be carried on a sheltered third pairing role

 

[sipowicz]

When Samberg is a 24 year old rookie who has already stagnated, we won’t be saying how he shouldn’t have been rushed into the NHL at age 21. Right now he’s playing for nobody. This is not how you develop talent in the modern NHL.

Jets like to age their rookies, best time to put them on a Jets roster is between 24-28 years old, hell Jets draft pick Poolboy is already almost 28 and he’s only played two seasons with the Jets!

 

[AKAChip]

Jets like to age their rookies, best time to put them on a Jets roster is between 24-28 years old, hell Jets draft pick Poolboy is already almost 28 and he’s only played two seasons with the Jets!

And he’s finished development as a bottom two defenceman at absolute best. Luckily for him he’s gritty and big so he’s got a more or less guaranteed roster spot for the foreseeable future. A success story relative to his draft position, sure but another guy who we’d be better off sitting in favour of someone with a higher ceiling.

 

[Gabe Kupari]

It's been 2 games yup but Really it's been 2 seasons plus 2 games now. Hasn't it.

 

[29from27and55]

the only positive i took from today is that maurice didnt completely resort to form and put connor on the top line and then fall in love with it again all year.

 

[Mbraunm]

agreed he is no longer a top line player on a contender... he is now a 2nd line player.... this is where guys like connor ehlers laine have to play with more killer instinct... play so well that it forces maurice to permanently break up his scheif wheeler top line love fest.

I don’t think there is anything that ehlers, laine and Connor can do to force Maurice to make helpful deployment decisions. This is a well known Achilles heel of Maurice. Maurice is great at motivating a team, but is extremely poor in his deployment decisions, special teams decisions and in-game adjustments. Let’s hope the team can stay motivated, because from a coaching perspective, Maurice has always been average to below average. I have been saying this for years.

 

[DRW204]

Let's not forget the start of the 2017 season. Jets get blown out by the leafs opening. Got blown out by the flames the following night I beleive. Then went on to have their best season ever.