Post-consolidation VsX Benchmarks

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Tell me what they are, and I'll calculate their scores by hand. I added Eddie Shore to the list. I had missed him the first time through. Remarkable that he makes it, at all, given the era in which he played. We should probably calculate the scores for Sergei Gonchar, as well.

Kelly is easy - D in Detroit, C in Toronto.

Or more specifically - D until 1959-60, with the exception of 1955-56, when he spent 1/4 of the season at LW the rest at D. In 1959-60, he was probably converted to C by Toronto for the last 10 or so games of the year; I'm not sure, but it wasn't a great season anyway so who cares. C from 1960-61 until the end of his career.

I'll have to re skim the defenseman project for the other two, but it's worthwhile so I'll make the effort.

 

[Sturminator]

Top-7 weighted VsX for Right Wings (1926-2012):

Rank | Player | Rank
1 | Gordie Howe | 127.2
2 | Jaromir Jagr | 114.6
3 | Maurice Richard | 105.7
4 | Guy Lafleur | 104.9
5 | Andy Bathgate | 104
6 | Charlie Conacher | 97.1
7 | Bill Cook | 96.6
8 | Mike Bossy | 94.4
9 | Teemu Selanne | 92.9
10 | Bernie Geoffrion | 91.4
11 | Mark Recchi | 88.6
12 | Brett Hull | 88.2
13 | Jari Kurri | 88.1
14 | Gordie Drillon | 88.1
15 | Martin St. Louis | 87.7
16 | Jarome Iginla | 87
17 | Pavel Bure | 86
18 | Bryan Hextall | 84.5
19 | Marian Hossa | 82.6
20 | Daniel Alfredsson | 82.6
21 | Theoren Fleury | 82.3
22 | Bill Mosienko* | 82.2
23 | Dany Heatley | 81.5
24 | Ziggy Palffy | 80.6
25 | Rod Gilbert | 80.2
26 | Lorne Carr* | 80.2
27 | Ken Hodge | 79.9
28 | Hooley Smith | 78.8
29 | Cecil Dillon | 78.4
30 | Alexander Mogilny | 78.1
31 | Bobby Bauer | 76.2
32 | Bobby Rousseau | 76
33 | Alex Kovalev | 75.8
34 | Lanny McDonald | 74.6
35 | Dit Clapper # | 74.1
36 | Rick Middleton | 74
37 | Milan Hejduk | 73.8
38 | Yvan Cournoyer | 73.6
39 | Tony Amonte | 73.3
40 | Tod Sloan | 72.8
41 | Larry Aurie | 72.7
42 | Peter Bondra | 72.5
43 | Eddie Wiseman | 72.1
44 | Steve Larmer | 72.1
45 | Glenn Anderson | 71.9
46 | Joe Mullen | 71.4
47 | Johnny Gagnon | 71
48 | Ed Litzenberger | 70.8
49 | Kenny Wharram | 70.6
50 | Dave Taylor | 70.4
51 | Dino Ciccarelli | 69.9
52 | Marian Gaborik | 69.9
53 | Ebbie Goodfellow # | 69.8
54 | Rene Robert | 69.4
55 | Todd Bertuzzi | 69.2
56 | Jimmy Ward | 69
57 | Mike Gartner | 68.5
58 | Ace Bailey | 68.1
59 | Owen Nolan | 66.9
60 | Claude Provost | 66.9
61 | Vic Stasiuk | 66.5
62 | Shane Doan | 66.3
63 | Glen Murray | 66.2
64 | Wilf Paiement | 65.4
65 | Johnny Peirson | 65.2
66 | Joe Carveth* | 65.2
67 | Petr Sykora | 65.1
68 | Grant Warwick* | 64.7
69 | Bill Guerin | 64.5
70 | Pat Verbeek | 64.3
71 | John McKenzie | 63.9
72 | Cam Neely | 63.8
73 | Jean Pronovost | 63.2

* wartime star

# spent time as defenseman

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Goodfellow played C from 1929/30 through 1932/33
In 1933-34, he split between D and C but was mostly a D in the regular season
In 1934-35, Goodfellow split pretty evenly, but actually seems to have scored more at D
From 1935-36 to 1940-41, he played D

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=36253760&postcount=51
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=41478053&postcount=51

Clapper seems to have been converted from RW to D late in 1936-37, so he should probably not be considered a D for the purposes of scoring until 1937-38.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=36253760&postcount=51
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=40315913&postcount=131

tarheel appears to have found the game report from the first game Clapper played at D in March, 1937.

 

[BraveCanadian]

To show who had higher peaks, I believe. For instance, I think 95, 90, 85, 70, 65, 60 will show up better than just six scores of 77.5. I could be completely wrong though.

If it is a peak why does it need to be exaggerated in any way to show that?

That is correct. It is an attempt to acknowledge that a player's best seasons are also his most important, from a career perspective. I find seventies' idea of weighing the 3rd best season the most to be the best we've come up with yet, because I think by the time you get to the 3rd best season, you are in the realm of what I would call "sustained production". It is possible for outliers to exist within an individual player's career, just as in an NHL season, and by putting the middle point of the focus on the 3rd best season, I think we dampen the significance of potential outlier seasons.

But this is a matter of personal taste.

I'll be honest I don't understand why people think that a 100 point seasons needs an extra boost when compared with an 80 point season or whatever.

The importance is already there in the numbers. 100 > 80. Why weigh it so that it is 110 to 75 or whatever? (just picking numbers out of the air)

You're just introducing peak bias into something that is attempting to level scoring level. ie. exchanging one bias for another -- albeit a much smaller one in this case.

 

[Sturminator]

Ok, I have edited the table for defensemen. Kelly drops down from 75.7 to 71, so a not insignificant drop, and yes, Clapper and Goodfellow are not even close to being in this list just based on their scoring as defensemen.

 

[Sturminator]

You're just introducing peak bias into something that is attempting to level scoring level. ie. exchanging one bias for another -- albeit a much smaller one in this case.

There is no exchange of biases. The VsX benchmarks and the weighing of season scores are separate methods. At any rate, I see your point, but we will have to agree to disagree about this one. I think a player's best seasons are the most important to his legacy.

 

[BraveCanadian]

There is no exchange of biases. The VsX benchmarks and the weighing of season scores are separate methods. At any rate, I see your point, but we will have to agree to disagree about this one. I think a player's best seasons are the most important to his legacy.

VsX being a 7 year span makes it implicit peak bias for more modern players but I understand the reasoning in that case.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Ok, I have edited the table for defensemen. Kelly drops down from 75.7 to 71, so a not insignificant drop, and yes, Clapper and Goodfellow are not even close to being in this list just based on their scoring as defensemen.

Thanks. I still have Kelly as my stand alone third best offensive defenseman of all time (behind Orr and Coffey) due to the changing nature of the position after Orr and the fact that Kelly was so far ahead of any of his peer defensemen.

Edit: It is nice to see how it all plays out statistically.

Did you not run the numbers for Pierre Pilote or does he just not meet the standard?

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

From the bio I did on Phil Housley this year...

HockeyDraftCentral.com

Often played forward during early years in Buffalo. He had 13 points at forward in 1983-84, 37 points at forward in 1984-85, and 18 points at forward in 1985-86

I would like to see him with these points taken out. My guess is that it won't change his score much.

 

[Sturminator]

Thanks. I still have Kelly as my stand alone third best offensive defenseman of all time (behind Orr and Coffey) due to the changing nature of the position after Orr and the fact that Kelly was so far ahead of any of his peer defensemen.

It's hard to know exactly what to make of Kelly. He was the best scoring defenseman of his era by a wide margin, but he also had the most help of anyone on the list, including Coffey, because Ted Lindsay was a much bigger scorer than any Oiler not named Gretzky.

Did you not run the numbers for Pierre Pilote or does he just not meet the standard?

I have added Pilote.

edit: added Harvey and Gadsby. The gap between Kelly and those guys isn't as big as I had expected, and at least Gadsby got much less scoring help than Kelly did. I'm not sure. Eddie Shore is the guy on this list most affected by his era, and I could see an argument for him as the #3 behind Coffey. Ray Bourque is clearly the best of the modern guys after Coffey considering how little scoring help he got in Boston in many of his best years. I could see an argument for him, as well.

 

[seventieslord]

wow, lots for me to catch up on.

 

[BubbaBoot]

• VsX • Goals (for all-time LWers) • 7 yr player peak vs 7 yr peers playing span
(updated 4/10/2013)

NAME | VsX | MEAN AVERAGE
Bobby Hull | 122 / 100 / 156 / 115 / 148 / 150 / 169 / 208 / 121 / 118 / 115 / 100 / 114 = 1736 | 13 yr MEAN = 134
Ted Lindsay | 100 / 122 / 130 / 96 / 92 / 111 / 139 / 108 / 66 / 113 / 100 = 898 | 8 yr MEAN = 112 \\\ 11 yr MEAN = 107
Michel Goulet | 84 / 106 / 127 / 128 / 118 / 109 / 100 = 782 | (MEAN = 112
Alex Ovechkin | 104 / 107 / 98 / 125 / 124 / 122 / 97 / 100 = 867 | 8 yr MEAN = 108
John LeClair | 113 / 102 / 100 / 128 / 108 / 98 = 649 | 6 yr MEAN = 108
Steve Shutt | 73 / 92 / 167 / 120 / 93 / 100 / 81 = 726 | MEAN = 104
Luc Robitaille • 1 |100 / 110 / 110 / 100 / 105 / 83 / 115 / 96 / 100 = 919 | 9 yr MEAN = 102
Ilya Kovalchuk |100 / 108 / 104 / 100 / 96 / 100 / 94 / 97 = 799 | 8 yr MEAN = 100
Sid Smith | 92 / 115 / 100 / 87 / 92 / 114 = 600 | 6 yr MEAN = 100
|||
Rick Martin | 95 / 121 / 104 / 100 / 100 / 69 / 80 / 96 = 765 | 8 yr MEAN = 96
Bill Barber | 82 / 102 / 56 / 100 / 85 / 85 / 100 / 90 = 730 | 8 yr MEAN = 91
Frank Mahovlich• 2 | 87 / 100 / 115 / 71 / 98 / 97 / 72 = 640 | MEAN = 91
Keith Tkachuk | 89 / 96 / 100 / 104 / 100 / 90 / 54 / 88 / 100 / 82 / 87 = 990 | 11 yr MEAN = 90
Paul Kariya | 100 / 88 / INJ / 98 / 102 / 83 / RW / 66 = 537 | 6 yr MEAN = 90
|||
Brendan Shanahan • 1| 75 / 93 / 113 / 87 / 88 / 94 / 70 = 620 | MEAN = 89
John Bucyk • 2| 84 / 72 / 100 / 49 / 95 / 116 / 73 / 103 = 692 | 8 yr MEAN = 87
Harry Watson| 78 / 130 / 81 / 69 / 82 / 70 / 88 = 598 | MEAN = 85
Charlie Simmer | 119 / 130 / 30 / 54 / 100 / 79 / 82 = 594 | MEAN = 85
Brendan Shanahan • 2| 79 / 100 / 80 / 97 / 79 / 66 / 80 = 591 | MEAN = 84
Brian Propp | 74 / 61 / 88 / 74 / 89 / 100 / 90 = 576 | MEAN = 82
|||
Dave Andreychuk • 1 | CTR/ 72 / RW / RW / 63 / 67 / 77 / 84 / 77 / INJ / 98 / RW / 96 = 634 | 8 yr MEAN = 79
Frank Mahovlich• 1 | 62 / 76 / 56 / C-LW / C-LW / C-LW / 90 / 89 / 100 / 72 = 545 | MEAN = 78
Thomas Vanek | 50 / 100 / 69 / 89 / 68 / 97 / 68 = 541 | MEAN = 77
Gaye Stewart | 86 / MIL / MIL / 128 / 70 / 100 / 100 / 100 / 69 = 525 | MEAN = 75

Gary Roberts • 1 | 75 / 51 / 100 / 69 / 79 = 374 | 5 yr MEAN = 75
Patrik Elias | 86 / 100 / 76 / 74 / 100 / INJ / CTR / 39 / 71 / 47 / 65 / 69 = 727 | 10 yr MEAN = 73
John Bucyk • 1| 66 / 83 / 50 / 61 / 63 / 100 / 62 / 100 = 585 | 8 yr MEAN = 73
Dean Prentice • 1| 100 / 64 / 41 / 59 / 100 / 65 / 69 / 70 / 79 = 647 | 9 yr MEAN = 72
Dick Duff | 75 / 87 / 81 / 100 / 59 / 52 / 53 / 59 = 566 |8 yr MEAN = 71
Luc Robitaille • 2 | 51 / 48 / 40 / 98 / 89 / 93 / 79 = 498 | MEAN = 71
|||
Geoff Courtnall | 75 / 100 / 67 / 77 / 52 / 56 / 57 / 70 = 554 | 8 yr MEAN = 69
Dean Prentice • 2| 54 / 41 / 92 / 57 / 29 / 80 / 48 / 46 / 68 = 569 | 9 yr MEAN = 63
Ryan Smyth | 71 / 61 / 72 / 85 / 27 / 59 / 54 / 71 = 500 | 8 yr MEAN = 63
|||
Gary Roberts • 2 | 40 / 50 / 35 / 56 / 73 / 55 / INJ / 74 = 383 | MEAN = 55
|||
Dave Andreychuk • 2 | 58 / 54 / 35 / 38 / 49 / 50 / 55 / 53 = 392 | 8 yr MEAN = 49
|||
|||
|||
Roy Conacher | 108 / 86 / 120 / 100 / MIL / MIL / MIL / MIL / 111 / 82 / 130 / 104 / 100 = 941 | 9 yr MEAN = 105
Busher Jackson | 100 / 108 / 123 / 95 / 110 / 67 / 124 = 727 | MEAN = 104
|||
Sweeney Schriner | 112 / 124 / 96 / 54 / 52 / 120 / 83 / 68 / 76 = 795 | 9 yr MEAN = 88
Bun Cook | 100 / 64 / 100 / 100 / 100 / 54 / 100 / 82 = 700 | 8 yr MEAN = 88
Toe Blake | 77 / 100 / 81 / 60 / 71 / 82 / 72 / 91 / 100 = 734 | 9 yr MEAN = 82
|||
Woody Dumart | 105 / 90 / MIL / MIL / MIL / 76 / 89 / 78 / 55 / 60 / 77 = 630 | 8 yr MEAN = 79
Johnny Gottslieg | 78 / 111 / 50 / 50 / 76 / 95 / 82 = 542 | MEAN = 77
Paul Thompson | 77 / 29 / 39 / 59 / 95 / 80 / 100 / 100 / 100 = 679 | 9 yr MEAN = 75
Lynn Patrick | 47 / 70 / 33 / 57 / 100 / 133 / 79 = 519 | MEAN = 74
Herbie Lewis | 83 / 83 / 19 / 91 / 76 / 80 / 82 / 61 = 575 | 8 yr MEAN = 72
Baldy Northcott | 42 / 39 / 73 / 100 / 95 / 45 / 88 / 88 = 570 | 8 yr MEAN = 71
|||
Herb Cain | 100 / 29 / 77 / 51 / 54 / 100 / 40 / 33 / 64 / 100 / 110 = 758 | 11 yr MEAN = 69
Hec Kilrea | 150 / 78 / 50 / 64 / 48 / 55 / 35 / 35 / 42 / 33 = 600 | 10 yr MEAN = 60
|||
|||
|||
Cy Denneny | 180 / 67 / 121 / 142 / 192 / 147 / 100 / 141 / 121 = 1211 | 9 yr MEAN = 135
Aurele Joliat •1| 100 / 100 / 111 / 100 / 100 / 127 / 92 = 730 | MEAN = 104
Aurele Joliat •2| 79 / 72 / 58 / 82 / 105 / 85 / 88 / 100 = 669 | 8 yr MEAN = 84
Reg Noble |100 / 100 / 68 / 90 / 100 / 80 / 33 = 591 | MEAN = 84
Joe Malone | INJ / 162 / 100 /
Smokey Harris |

 

[BillyShoe1721]

I've seen some discussion about Vs2 and VsX for defensemen, I think it was BBS that mentioned it. Do you have the benchmarks/numbers for each year? If so, could you post them or PM/email them to me?

 

[Sturminator]

I've seen some discussion about Vs2 and VsX for defensemen, I think it was BBS that mentioned it. Do you have the benchmarks/numbers for each year? If so, could you post them or PM/email them to me?

I'm sorry; I don't. Getting the correct numbers would require a bit of work. For 1967-present, year-by-year data by position is quite easy to pull out of overpass' spreadsheet by using the filters, but pre-expansion numbers for defensemen will require a lot of sifting through tables, I'm afraid. I think this is a useful exercise, though, and I'll volunteer to help if you'd like.

 

[Sturminator]

I have added to the OP the small changes that have been discussed in dealing with 50's benchmarking, specifically text which makes it clear that the first 10% gap is taken for the averaging method, and an additional rule (the Bathgate Rule), which sets the benchmark at a player's scoring if there is a 7% of greater gap both above and below him in the table.

Thanks to everyone who has commented on how this era might be better handled. I think this is an improvement to the system.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Is there any reason to think that Vs2/VsX is more useful for defensemen than adjusted points?

 

[Hardyvan123]

As far as I know, nobody has addressed a big issue with using the percentage method - it is highly influenced by league size.

I know seventieslord acknowledges the problem and basically adds something like a 7% fudge factor in favor of pre-expansion players (not on a season by season basis, but over their average).

I often think about stuff like this and maybe the VsX benchmark could be averaged along with a top 18 scorers average or something like that?

I know it's something I'm thinking about with the Canadian versus non Canadian situation after the 80's but it's hard to standardize but that's another topic. I'm leaning toward something like a % of the 10th Canadian scorer or something and then blending the two lists or averages to get a better idea.

As for the top 18 scorers average in each league, I wonder how a system would look taking the number of teams x 2 to get the top 2 scorers from each team across the league average. ie in a 6 team league it would be the average of 6 x 2 for 12 and in current day 30 x 2 for 60.

A separate thought but one that could be used for any averaging system (average of top 18 scorers or the one I'm thinking about here) is to not count expansion teams for at least 1 or 2 years to let them come up to speed as usually they are cannon fodder for other teams initially.

 

[seventieslord]

I often think about stuff like this and maybe the VsX benchmark could be averaged along with a top 18 scorers average or something like that?

I know it's something I'm thinking about with the Canadian versus non Canadian situation after the 80's but it's hard to standardize but that's another topic. I'm leaning toward something like a % of the 10th Canadian scorer or something and then blending the two lists or averages to get a better idea.

As for the top 18 scorers average in each league, I wonder how a system would look taking the number of teams x 2 to get the top 2 scorers from each team across the league average. ie in a 6 team league it would be the average of 6 x 2 for 12 and in current day 30 x 2 for 60.

A separate thought but one that could be used for any averaging system (average of top 18 scorers or the one I'm thinking about here) is to not count expansion teams for at least 1 or 2 years to let them come up to speed as usually they are cannon fodder for other teams initially.

Your last idea makles some sense. But as for the stuff before it, anything that treats the league as though it was relatively as strong as the number of teams in it is kind of a non-starter for me.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Your last idea makes some sense. But as for the stuff before it, anything that treats the league as though it was relatively as strong as the number of teams in it is kind of a non-starter for me.

to your last point it's not any indication on the strength of the league with the number of teams but rather the number of top line and PP opportunities that exist for each and every team.

The retalative "strength" of the NHL at any point in time is rather subjective although we can generally say that the talent pool has increased both in terms of quality and quantity over time.

 

[BraveCanadian]

to your last point it's not any indication on the strength of the league with the number of teams but rather the number of top line and PP opportunities that exist for each and every team.

I do think that it is important to consider the number of players who have the opportunity of top line and PP time.

One problem is that the number of PP opportunities doesn't really average out all the time.

For example look at the 80s Oilers PP opportunities.

The retalative "strength" of the NHL at any point in time is rather subjective although we can generally say that the talent pool has increased both in terms of quality and quantity over time.

I agree somewhat about the first part and disagree about the second as usual.

On the other hand it is easy to see what the parity level within the NHL is like just by comparing teams to the average team.

Right now there is a lot more parity than in the 70s for example.

Not sure off hand how to factor these things into players' relative production but a system that did so would be more complete.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Bringing this one to the surface, now that it's been moved to "By The Numbers".

 

[Crease]

Hey Sturm, do you have benchmarks for VsX in terms of goals and assists?

I haven't done that work, sorry.

Using Sturm's VsX methodology, but for goals:

| GVsX | Rank | Player
1927 | 23 | Average of Top 6 | -
1928 | 25.5 | Average of Top 6 | -
1929 | 18 | 3 | Cooper
1930 | 41 | 2 | Clapper
1931 | 27.33 | Average of Top 6 | -
1932 | 28 | 3 | Jackson
1933 | 24 | 3 | Barry
1934 | 22 | 3 | Joliat
1935 | 22 | T-3 | Howe and Jackson
1936 | 21 | 3 | Barry
1937 | 22 | 3 | Keeling
1938 | 23 | 2 | Mantha
1939 | 22.33 | Average of Top 6 | -
1940 | 22 | 2 | Dumart
1941 | 21.88 | Average of Top 8 | -
1942 | 24 | 2 | Conacher
1943 | 30 | 2 | Benoit
1944 | 36 | T-2 | Cain, Carr and Liscombe
1945 | 32 | 2 | Cain
1946 | 31 | 2 | Bentley
1947 | 30 | T-2 | Bauer and Conacher
1948 | 30 | 2 | Lach
1949 | 26 | T-2 | Conacher, Conacher, Lindsay and Watson
1950 | 32.17 | Average of Top 6 | -
1951 | 30.25 | Average of Top 8 | -
1952 | 31 | 2 | Mosieko
1953 | 32 | 2 | Lindsay
1954 | 29 | 3 | Geoffrion
1955 | 31.63 | Average of Top 8 | -
1956 | 33.13 | Average of Top 8 | -
1957 | 33 | 2 | Beliveau
1958 | 33 | 2 | Howe
1959 | 37.33 | Average of Top 6 | -
1960 | 34 | 3 | Beliveau
1961 | 35 | 3 | Moore
1962 | 33 | T-2 | Howe, Mahovlich, and Provost
1963 | 37 | 2 | Henry
1964 | 34 | Average of Top 6 | -
1965 | 29 | 3 | Howe
1966 | 32 | 2 | Mahovlich
1967 | 31 | 3 | Wharram
1968 | 38 | Average of Top 6 | -
1969 | 49 | 2 | Esposito
1970 | 42 | 2 | Unger
1971 | 44 | 3 | Hull
1972 | 50 | T-2 | Hadfield and Hull
1973 | 47.5 | Average of Top 6 | -
1974 | 52 | 2 | Martin
1975 | 53 | 2 | Lafleur
1976 | 56 | 2 | Lafleur
1977 | 56 | 2 | Lafleur
1978 | 53 | 2 | Bossy
1979 | 52 | 3 | Lafleur
1980 | 56 | T-1 | Gare, Simmer, and Stoughton
1981 | 58 | 2 | Dionne
1982 | 64 | 2 | Bossy
1983 | 66 | 2 | McDonald
1984 | 56 | 2 | Goulet
1985 | 58 | 3 | Bossy
1986 | 61 | 2 | Bossy
1987 | 58 | 2 | Kerr
1988 | 56 | 2 | Simpson
1989 | 62.67 | Average of Top 6 | -
1990 | 55 | T-3 | Bellows and Neely
1991 | 51 | T-2 | Fleur, Neely and Yzerman
1992 | 51.13 | Average of Top 8 | -
1993 | 69 | 3 | Lemieux
1994 | 57 | 2 | Hull
1995 | 32 | 2 | Jagr
1996 | 55 | 3 | Mogilny
1997 | 51 | 2 | Selanne
1998 | 45.75 | Average of Top 8 | -
1999 | 44 | T-2 | Amonte and Jagr
2000 | 44 | 2 | Nolan
2001 | 49.5 | Average of Top 6 | -
2002 | 41 | T-2 | Guerin, Murray and Sundin
2003 | 48 | 2 | Naslund
2004 | 41 | T-1 | Iginla, Kovalchuk, and Nash
2006 | 54 | 2 | Jagr
2007 | 50 | 2 | Heatley
2008 | 52 | 2 | Kovalchuk
2009 | 46 | 2 | Carter
2010 | 46.5 | Average of Top 6 | -
2011 | 45 | 2 | Stamkos
2012 | 41 | 3 | Gaborik
2013 | 25.75 | Average of Top 8 | -

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I noticed that the player tables starting in post 84 were calculated before Rules 3 and 4 were added. I know 1957, 1958, and 1959 would be affected. Any other years?

 

[BillyShoe1721]

Top-7 weighted VsX for Left Wings (1926-2012):

Rank | Player | Rank
1 | Bobby Hull | 107.1
2 | Ted Lindsay | 106
3 | Doug Bentley* ** | 96.2
4 | Toe Blake* | 92.6
5 | Alex Ovechkin | 92.1
6 | Sweeney Schriner | 91.9
7 | Busher Jackson | 90
8 | Roy Conacher** | 88.8
9 | Dickie Moore | 88.6
10 | Syd Howe* | 87.9
11 | Sid Abel | 87.8
12 | John Bucyk | 86.3
13 | Frank Mahovlich | 85.5
14 | Paul Kariya | 85.4
15 | Alex Delvecchio | 84.9
16 | Luc Robitaille | 84.4
17 | Ilya Kovalchuk | 84.3
18 | Markus Naslund | 83.6
19 | Paul Thompson | 83.2
20 | Aurel Joliat | 83.1
21 | John LeClair | 82.1
22 | Lynn Patrick* | 81.2
23 | Brendan Shanahan | 79.3
24 | Michel Goulet | 79.3
25 | Keith Tkachuk | 79.3
26 | Patrik Elias | 79.2
27 | Bert Olmstead | 76.9
28 | Daniel Sedin | 76.9
29 | Bun Cook | 76.6
30 | Herbie Lewis | 75.6
31 | Pavol Demitra | 75.2
32 | Johnny Gottselig | 75
33 | Vincent Damphousse | 74.2
34 | Milan Hejduk | 73.8
35 | Woody Dumart | 73.5
36 | Gaye Stewart* | 73.1
37 | Ray Whitney | 73
38 | Alex Tanguay | 72.5
39 | Herb Cain* | 72.2
40 | Patrick Marleau | 71
41 | Steve Shutt | 70.8
42 | Pete Mahovlich | 70.3
43 | Rick Martin | 70.2
44 | Dave Andreychuk | 69.4
45 | Baldy Northcott | 69.3
46 | Sid Smith | 69.1
47 | Bill Barber | 68.6
48 | Camille Henry | 68.6
49 | Miroslav Satan | 68.6
50 | Dean Prentice | 68
51 | Kevin Stevens | 67.8
52 | Brian Propp | 67
53 | Vic Stasiuk | 66.5
54 | Shane Doan | 66.3
55 | Fred Stanfield | 66.2
56 | Charlie Simmer | 65.5
57 | Dennis Hull | 65.2
58 | Kirk Muller | 65
59 | Wayne Cashman | 65
60 | Red Berenson | 64.9
61 | Brian Bellows | 64.9
62 | Cory Stillman | 64.7
63 | Greg Adams | 64.5
64 | Bill Hay | 64.3
66 | Mats Naslund | 63.5
67 | Vyacheslav Kozlov | 63.5
68 | Rick Nash | 63.5
69 | Simon Gagne | 63.1

Can someone explain the calculations to get these scores? I know how to get their raw VsX score, but what do you multiply by/divide by in order to get these scores? I know weights are involved, but I'm not sure what they are.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

In case anybody is interested, here's the VsX benchmarking for goals.

- I've used a seven year time frame with the same weighting as before (18-19-20-19-18-17).
- I'm using the benchmarks Crease determined in post #122 (but I haven't verified the numbers).
- I'm adjusting goals to a benchmark of 50 each year (i.e. in 1993 the adjustment factor is 50/69 or 0.724).

Here are the top 250 seven-year peak goal-scorers:

Rank|Player|Goals
1 | Bobby Hull | 70.7
2 | Maurice Richard | 67.5
3 | Gordie Howe | 66
4 | Phil Esposito | 62.4
5 | Wayne Gretzky | 59.4
6 | Brett Hull | 56.9
7 | Charlie Conacher | 55.3
8 | Mario Lemieux | 54.9
9 | Jean Beliveau | 54.7
10 | Alex Ovechkin | 54.6
11 | Bill Cook | 53.2
12 | Mike Bossy | 53
13 | Bernie Geoffrion | 51.5
14 | Frank Mahovlich | 50.9
15 | Pavel Bure | 50.8
16 | Nels Stewart | 50.8
17 | Jaromir Jagr | 50.5
18 | Stan Mikita | 50.2
19 | Roy Conacher | 49.8
20 | Howie Morenz | 48.8
21 | Teemu Selanne | 48.7
22 | Ted Lindsay | 48.5
23 | Guy Lafleur | 47.6
24 | Peter Bondra | 47.5
25 | Marcel Dionne | 47.3
26 | Steve Yzerman | 47.2
27 | Gordie Drillon | 47.2
28 | Norm Ullman | 46.8
29 | Jarome Iginla | 46.7
30 | Ilya Kovalchuk | 46.7
31 | Bryan Hextall | 46.7
32 | Busher Jackson | 46
33 | Marty Barry | 46
34 | Jari Kurri | 45.7
35 | John LeClair | 45.6
36 | Luc Robitaille | 44.8
37 | Sweeney Schriner | 44.6
38 | Andy Bathgate | 44.3
39 | Joe Sakic | 44
40 | Cecil Dillon | 43.9
41 | Keith Tkachuk | 43.6
42 | Camille Henry | 43.4
43 | Michel Goulet | 43.3
44 | John Bucyk | 43
45 | Dickie Moore | 43
46 | Rick Martin | 42.9
47 | Brendan Shanahan | 42.7
48 | Max Bentley | 42.5
49 | Toe Blake | 42.5
50 | Dany Heatley | 42.3
51 | Mike Gartner | 41.7
52 | Syl Apps Sr | 41.7
53 | Yvan Cournoyer | 41.7
54 | Aurel Joliat | 41.4
55 | Pat LaFontaine | 41.1
56 | Marian Hossa | 41.1
57 | Syd Howe | 41.1
58 | Cam Neely | 41
59 | Lorne Carr | 41
60 | Markus Naslund | 40.9
61 | Herb Cain | 40.8
62 | Kenny Wharram | 40.7
63 | Doug Bentley | 40.6
64 | Paul Kariya | 40.6
65 | Eric Lindros | 40.5
66 | Gaye Stewart | 40.5
67 | Alexander Mogilny | 40.5
68 | Ziggy Palffy | 40.5
69 | Theoren Fleury | 40.4
70 | Joe Nieuwendyk | 40.1
71 | Rick Nash | 39.9
72 | Bill Mosienko | 39.8
73 | Lanny McDonald | 39.8
74 | Steve Shutt | 39.8
75 | Sid Smith | 39.6
76 | Tony Amonte | 39.6
77 | Ken Hodge | 39.5
78 | Tim Kerr | 39.5
79 | Mats Sundin | 39.3
80 | Rod Gilbert | 39.3
81 | Alex Delvecchio | 39.2
82 | Sid Abel | 39.1
83 | Milan Hejduk | 38.8
84 | Dave Keon | 38.8
85 | Dino Ciccarelli | 38.6
86 | Jean Ratelle | 38.6
87 | Marian Gaborik | 38.6
88 | Steven Stamkos | 38.5
89 | Mike Modano | 38.4
90 | Jeremy Roenick | 38.3
91 | Ted Kennedy | 38.3
92 | Dit Clapper | 38.2
93 | Woody Dumart | 38.2
94 | Patrick Marleau | 38.1
95 | Dave Andreychuk | 38.1
96 | Paul Thompson | 38
97 | Joe Mullen | 38
98 | Dale Hawerchuk | 37.9
99 | Mark Messier | 37.5
100 | Garry Unger | 37.5
101 | Bill Cowley | 37.5
102 | Sergei Fedorov | 37.5
103 | Henri Richard | 37.4
104 | Bryan Trottier | 37.4
105 | Glenn Anderson | 37.3
106 | Alexei Yashin | 37.3
107 | Bernie Nicholls | 37.3
108 | Tod Sloan | 37.3
109 | Bill Guerin | 37.1
110 | Milt Schmidt | 37.1
111 | Gilbert Perreault | 37
112 | Reggie Leach | 37
113 | Thomas Vanek | 37
114 | Pierre Turgeon | 37
115 | Owen Nolan | 36.9
116 | Pat Verbeek | 36.9
117 | Lynn Patrick | 36.9
118 | Patrik Elias | 36.9
119 | Vincent Lecavalier | 36.8
120 | Bill Barber | 36.8
121 | Darryl Sittler | 36.8
122 | Rick Middleton | 36.8
123 | Mark Recchi | 36.6
124 | Eric Staal | 36.5
125 | Martin St. Louis | 36.5
126 | Cooney Weiland | 36.5
127 | Daniel Alfredsson | 36.3
128 | Miroslav Satan | 36.3
129 | Rick MacLeish | 36.3
130 | Jeff Carter | 36.3
131 | Rick Vaive | 36.3
132 | Ray Sheppard | 36.2
133 | Don McKenney | 36.2
134 | Danny Gare | 36.1
135 | Glen Murray | 36.1
136 | Sidney Crosby | 36.1
137 | Jean Pronovost | 35.9
138 | Peter Stastny | 35.7
139 | Harry Watson | 35.5
140 | Dean Prentice | 35.5
141 | Bobby Bauer | 35.5
142 | John Ogrodnick | 35.4
143 | Steve Larmer | 35.3
144 | Jacques Lemaire | 35.3
145 | Bobby Orr | 35.3
146 | Stephane Richer | 35.3
147 | Kevin Stevens | 35.2
148 | Bun Cook | 35.2
149 | Charlie Simmer | 35.2
150 | Bill Goldsworthy | 35.2
151 | Evgeni Malkin | 35
152 | Brian Bellows | 35
153 | Simon Gagne | 34.8
154 | Pierre Larouche | 34.8
155 | Ed Litzenberger | 34.7
156 | Ron Ellis | 34.6
157 | Clint Smith | 34.6
158 | Baldy Northcott | 34.6
159 | Gary Roberts | 34.5
160 | Dennis Hull | 34.5
161 | Larry Aurie | 34.5
162 | Alex Kovalev | 34.5
163 | Corey Perry | 34.4
164 | Johnny Gottselig | 34.4
165 | Zach Parise | 34.4
166 | Dick Duff | 34.3
167 | Elmer Lach | 34.3
168 | Grant Warwick | 34.1
169 | Andy Hebenton | 34
170 | Danny Grant | 33.9
171 | Olli Jokinen | 33.8
172 | Herbie Lewis | 33.8
173 | Daniel Sedin | 33.7
174 | John MacLean | 33.6
175 | Denis Savard | 33.5
176 | Bob Nevin | 33.4
177 | Jim Pappin | 33.4
178 | Pavol Demitra | 33.4
179 | Hooley Smith | 33.3
180 | Dave Taylor | 33.3
181 | Claude Provost | 33.3
182 | Bobby Rousseau | 33.1
183 | Alex Shibicky | 33.1
184 | Dennis Maruk | 33
185 | Rick Tocchet | 33
186 | Geoff Sanderson | 32.9
187 | Mickey Redmond | 32.9
188 | Mike Bullard | 32.8
189 | Ralph Backstrom | 32.7
190 | Butch Keeling | 32.7
191 | Johnny Peirson | 32.7
192 | Ryan Smyth | 32.6
193 | Brian Propp | 32.5
194 | John Sorrell | 32.4
195 | Alexander Semin | 32.4
196 | Gilles Tremblay | 32.4
197 | Adam Graves | 32.4
198 | Peter McNab | 32.2
199 | Jimmy Ward | 32.2
200 | Don Marshall | 32.1
201 | Bob Pulford | 32.1
202 | Phil Kessel | 32.1
203 | Tomas Sandstrom | 32
204 | Red Hamill | 32
205 | Henrik Zetterberg | 32
206 | Tony Tanti | 32
207 | Greg Adams | 32
208 | Paul MacLean | 31.9
209 | Pete Mahovlich | 31.9
210 | Mud Bruneteau | 31.8
211 | Jimmy Carson | 31.8
212 | Vic Stasiuk | 31.7
213 | Steve Thomas | 31.7
214 | Buzz Boll | 31.7
215 | Frank Boucher | 31.6
216 | Rick Kehoe | 31.4
217 | Vic Hadfield | 31.4
218 | Jason Spezza | 31.4
219 | Carl Liscombe | 31.3
220 | Blaine Stoughton | 31.2
221 | Ace Bailey | 31.2
222 | Vincent Damphousse | 31.2
223 | Brian Sutter | 31.1
224 | Paul Henderson | 31
225 | John McKenzie | 31
226 | Eric Daze | 30.9
227 | Bobby Clarke | 30.9
228 | Claude Lemieux | 30.9
229 | Bill Thoms | 30.8
230 | Wendel Clark | 30.8
231 | Petr Sykora | 30.8
232 | Ray Getliffe | 30.7
233 | Petr Nedved | 30.7
234 | Johnny Gagnon | 30.7
235 | Eddie Wiseman | 30.6
236 | Joe Carveth | 30.6
237 | Rod Brind'Amour | 30.5
238 | Dave Gagner | 30.5
239 | Tony Leswick | 30.5
240 | Geoff Courtnall | 30.4
241 | Pavel Datsyuk | 30.4
242 | Michael Ryder | 30.4
243 | Ray Whitney | 30.4
244 | Ray Ferraro | 30.3
245 | Joe Thornton | 30.3
246 | Rene Robert | 30.3
247 | Wilf Paiement | 30.2
248 | Kent Nilsson | 30.2
249 | Todd Bertuzzi | 30.1
250 | Murray Oliver | 30.1

If Ovechkin maintains his pace through the end of the year, by my rough estimate he'd have around 57 "adjusted" goals over his seven best seasons (6th place all-time).