Post-consolidation VsX Benchmarks

[BubbaBoot]

Hey Sturm, I accidently erased that message you gave me a few weeks back about this comparison tool. At the risk of sounding like the dolt that I probably am, is there any way you or BBS come up with some kind of key that explains the formulas and/or significance of it all?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I honestly think you just have to asterisk it. No amount of fudging can account for the crappy level of competition the scores were racked up against. You go from giving Smith a 94 to an 88 in 1944 and 86 to a 74 in 1945. I agree its an improvement, but the bottom line is those scores don't deserve to be treated the same way as other scores in the 70s or 80s earned in a non-depleted league with much different competition at the top and throughout the league.

I think no matter what you do, you're still going to have Mosienko too high and undrafteds that look much better than they were.

I think it's worth exploring since Clint Smith is one of the few players who played all of 1943 - 1946.

Here are his VsX scores

1938: 84
1939: 93
1940: 56
1941: 57
1942: 63
1943: 50
1944: 94 (88 vs1)
1945: 86 (68 vs1)
1946: 96
1947: 41

Elmer Lach is another one who played the whole time frame in question.

1941: 48
1942: n/a
1943: 88
1944: 94 (88 vs 1)
1945: 127 (100 vs 1)
1946: 90
1947: 43 (injured)
1948: 102
1949: 54 (injured)
1950: 70
1951: 68
1952: 94
1953: 67
1954: 41 (inured

It's a small sample of 2, but it seems like comparing to vs1 in 1944 and 1945 makes those two years fit more in line with the rest of the relatively weak but not nearly as awful 1940s.

Any other star or semi-star players you can think of who played all of 1943-1946?

Here's Toe Blake:

1937: 49
1938: 75
1939: 107
1940: 84
1941: 73
1942: 83
1943: 89
1944: 77 (72 vs1)
1945: 92 (84 vs 1)
1946: 96
1947: 79
1948: 40 (missed a lot of games)

Toe Blake's 1944 and 1945 actually look more in line with the seasons surrounding them if you stick with Sturm's VsX and don't do Vs1, but my guess is that's largely (or completely) random variation.

 

[Sturminator]

Toe Blake is one...and the Bentleys.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Toe Blake is one...and the Bentleys.

I checked the Bentleys, but Max missed both 1944 and 1945, and Doug missed 1945 with some kind of immigration problem that probably was related to the war.


Don't know how I could remember Elmer Lach and forget about Toe Blake though. I'll add Toe Blake to the post above.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I spent a bit of time setting up a spreadsheet that will allow me to easily calculate a player's "Vs. X" score based on Sturm's benchmarks. The number of seasons included and the relative weighting of each can be adjusted with a few keystrokes. Is there any interest in me posting the results or should I wait until the draft is over?

 

[Sturminator]

I'd like to see the results using the following:

- 7 season benchmark

- value weighting: 18, 19, 20, 19, 18, 17, 16

- minimum value 50

------------------------------------------------------

I think this is likely to give us the best basis for comparing relative scoring across all eras. Then maybe one for post-expansion players only:

- 10 season benchmark

- 18, 19, 20, 19, 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 13

- minimum value 50

------------------------------------------------------

I doubt anybody's going to mind you posting the results now.

 

[Sturminator]

Hey Sturm, I accidently erased that message you gave me a few weeks back about this comparison tool. At the risk of sounding like the dolt that I probably am, is there any way you or BBS come up with some kind of key that explains the formulas and/or significance of it all?

I'm sorry I didn't answer your question more promptly. Would you still like a clarification beyond what's in the OP?

 

[BubbaBoot]

I'll do more, definitely for the modern era but right now I'm going stir crazy and want to go for a swim.

Given the formula that I've hopefully interpreted correctly, (#3/#2....with also the #1/#2 whenever it appears. A score of 100 is a 2nd place finish). I believe I was told that a score of 80 was very good(?) The earlier eras seem skewed wildly, especially the pre-WW2 era.

This is what I've compiled so far for RWERS:


• VsX • Goals (for all-time RWers) • 7 yr player peak vs 7 yr peers playing span
(UPDATED 3/29/13)

NAME | VsX | MEAN AVERAGE
Rocket Richard • 1 |91 / 179 / 142 / 150 / 112 / 95 / 123 = 892 | (MEAN = 127)
Gordie Howe • 1 | 100 / 102 / 152 / 163 / 100 / 100 / 131 = 848 | (MEAN = 121)
Brett Hull | 89 / 131 / 168 / 163 / 90 / 95 / 91 = 827 | (MEAN = 118)
Rocket Richard • 2 | 100 / 97 / 93 / 112 / 131 / 131 / 103 = 767| (MEAN = 110)
Jaromir Jagr | 100 / 104 / 98 / 78 / 100 / 96 / 100 / 77 / 78 / 82 / 100 / 70 = 764 | (7 MEAN = 109) / 1171 (12 yr MEAN = 98)
Guy Lafleur | 118 / 100 / 122 / 113 / 100 / 98 / [50 / 50 / 45 / 58] = 651 | (6 yr MEAN = 109)
Gordie Howe • 2 | 133 / 110 / 97 / 97 / 79 / 118 / 109 = 743 | (MEAN = 106)
Mike Bossy | 100 / 133 / 100 / 124 / 116 / 100 / 98 / 100 / 100 / 70 = 1041 | (10 yr MEAN = 104)
||
Gordie Howe • 3 | 100 / 107 / 100 / 89 / 111 / 100 / 89 = 696 | (MEAN = 99)
Andy Bathgate | 83 / 100 / 121 / 91 / 100 / 100 / 100 = 695 | (MEAN = 99)
Jari Kurri | 75 / 100 / 122 / 112 / 100 / 86 / 91 = 686 | (MEAN = 98)
Boom-Boom Geoffrion • 2 | 68 / 104 / 172 / 82 / 66 / 84 = 576 | (6 yr MEAN = 96)
Teemu Selanne • 1 | 127 / 44 / 69 / 100 / 106 / 102 / 109 = 657 | (MEAN = 94)
Jarome Iginla • 2 | 81 / 116 / 97 / 82 / 100 / 89 = 565 | (6 yr MEAN = 94)
Pavel Bure | 81 / 100 / 105 / 65 / INJ / 49 / 100 / INJ / 132 / 114 / 83 = 829| (9 yr MEAN = 92)
Yvan Cournoyer | 89 / 80 / 98 / 77 / 100 / 109 / 93 / 80 = 726 | (8 yr MEAN = 91)
Boom-Boom Geoffrion • 1 | 97 / 73 / 88 / 131 / 100 / 59 / 90 = 638 | (MEAN = 91)
Kenny Wharram | 57 / 150 / 89 / 90 / 111 / 77 / 69 = 633 | (MEAN = 90)
||
Peter Bondra | 106 / 95 / 97 / 102 / 71 / 49 / 76 / 95 = 687| (8 yr MEAN = 86)
Cam Neely | 68 / 84 / 76 / 100* / 100* / INJ / INJ / 88 / 84= 600 | (MEAN = 86)
Mike Gartner • 2 | 76 / 96 / 68 / 82 / 96 / 94 / 75 = 587 | (MEAN = 84)
Ken Hodge | 71 / 102 / 71 / 116 / 38 / 88 / 100 = 586 | (MEAN = 84)
Rod Gilbert | 92 / 93 / INJ / 100 / 83 / 64 / 52 / 81 / 100 = 665 | ( 8 yr MEAN = 83)
Tim Kerr | 39 / INJ / 104 / 93 / 95 / 107 / INJ / 98 / 44 = 580 | (MEAN = 83)
Marian Hossa | 67 / 62 / 76 / 98 / 95 / 72 / 90 / 68 / 111 = 739 | (9 yr MEAN = 82)
Bill Mosienko | 91 / 100 / 95 / 83 / 64 / 83 / 51 / 68 / 100 = 735 | (9 yr MEAN = 82)
Jarome Iginla • 1 | 64 / 67 / 60 / 127 / 78 / 108 / 65 = 572 | (MEAN = 82)
Dany Heatley | 63 / 90 / INJ / 93 / LW / 95 / LW / 100 / 61 / 65 = 567| (MEAN = 81)
||
Lanny McDonald | 66 / 100 / 89 / 83 / 79 / 64 / 73 / 110 / 64 = 718 | (9 yr MEAN = 80)
Andy Hebenton | 83 / 66 / 70 / 100 / 68 / 90 / 64 = 561 | (MEAN = 80)
Alexander Mogilny | 59 / 93 / 127 / 56 / 59 / 100 / 66 = 560 | (MEAN = 80)
Glenn Anderson | 70 / 80 / 104 / 72 / 89 / 66 / 76 = 557| (MEAN = 80)
||
Bill Goldsworthy | 103 / 92 / 72 / 63 / 96 / 82 / 43 = 551 | (MEAN = 79)
Rick Middleton | 73 / 79 / 81 / 94 / 82 / 90 / 52 = 551 | (MEAN = 79)
Joe Mullen | 79 / 69 / 72 / 89 / 80 / 104 / 66 / INJ / 98 / 55 / 67 = 779 | (10 yr MEAN = 78)
Marian Gaborik | 73 / 67 / 47 / 79 / 69 / 98 / INJ / 108 / 51 / 111 = 703 | (9 yr MEAN = 78)
Reggie Leach | 100 / 109 / 70 / 45 / 65 / 98 / 62 = 549 | (MEAN = 78)
Theo Fleury | 100 / 79 / 57 / 70 / 91 / 84 / 62 / 60 / 91 = 694 | (9 yr MEAN = 77)
Jean Pronovost | 71 / 51 / 83 / 96 / 93 / 72 / 76 = 542 | (MEAN = 77)
Rick Vaive | 98 / 85 / 96 / 60 / 54 / 59 / 86 = 538| (MEAN = 77)
Ziggy Palffy | 78 / 100 / 88 / 50 / 62 / 73 / 78 / 82 = 611 | (8 yr MEAN = 76)
Owen Nolan • 1 | 98 / 60 / INJ / 94 / 64 / 66 = 382 | (5 yr MEAN = 76)
Marty St. Louis | 73 / 100 / 57 / 90 / 59 / 86 / 74 / 72 / 68 = 679 | (9 yr MEAN = 75)
Dino Ciccarelli • 1 | 100 / 62 / 73 / 26 / 72 / 96 / 82 = 510 | (MEAN = 73)
Stephane Richer | 100 / 52 / 93 / 61 / 69 / 63 / 63 / 72 = 573 | (8 yr MEAN = 72)
Mike Gartner • 1 | 71 / 88 / 64 / 63 / 77 / 86 / 57 = 506 | (MEAN = 72)
John McKenzie | 70 / 61 / 80 / 67 / 88 / 84 / 52 = 502 | (MEAN = 72)
Teemu Selanne • 2 | 75 / 64 / 71 / 62 / 43 / 74 / 100 / INJ / 77 / 69 / 72 / 70 = 777 | (11 yr MEAN = 71)
Steve Larmer | 72 / 67 / 79 / 51 / 53 / 82 / 92 / 56 / 86 = 638 | (9 yr MEAN = 71)
Bobby Rousseau | 75 / 54 / 96 / 44 / 104 / 68 / 54 / 69 / 73 = 636 | (9 yr MEAN = 71)
Mark Recchi • 1 | 55 / 78 / 100 / 88 / 70 / 52 / 51 / 72 / 71 = 637 | (9 yr MEAN = 71)
Jim Pappin | 75 / 37 / 69 / 80 / 60 / 64 / 95 / 67 / 82 = 629 | (9 yr MEAN = 70)
Ray Sheppard | 76 / 45 / INJ / 47 / 86 / 53 / 91 / 94 = 492 | (MEAN = 70)
||
Bill Guerin | 62 / 40 / 68 / 56 / 77 / 100 / 56 / 90 = 547 | (8 yr MEAN = 69)
Danny Gare | 69 / 89 / INJ / 74 / 52 / 110 / 84 / 37 = 485 | (MEAN = 69)
Ron Ellis | 85 / 66 / 79 / 80 / 58 / 100 / 65 = 475 | (MEAN = 68)
Tony Tanti | 87 / 67 / 64 / 76 / 80 / 50 / 51 = 475 | (MEAN = 68)
Claude Provost | 63 / 49 / 61 / 38 / 118 / 57 / 60 / 100 / 66 = 602 | (9 yr MEAN = 67)
Paul MacLean | 66 / 53 / 77 / 71 / 44 / 60 / 80 / 87 = 538 | (8 yr MEAN = 67)
Dino Ciccarelli • 2 | 94 / 75 / 42 / 89 / 68 / 49 / 40 / 75 = 532 | (8 yr MEAN = 67)
Ed Litzenberger | 79 / 35 / 97 / CTR / 100 / 42 / 35 / 64 = 472 | (MEAN = 67)
Bob Nevin | 72 / 54 / 34 / 46 / 59 / 100 / 71 / 80 = 516 | (8 yr MEAN = 65)
Rick Kehoe | 79 / 38 / 73 / 52 / 65 / 55 / 52 / 60 / 100 = 574 | (9 yr MEAN = 64)
Pat Verbeek | 92 / 54 / LW / LW / 52 / 65 / 65 / 75 / 36 / 69 = 508 | (8 yr MEAN = 64)
Dave Taylor | 83 / 73 / 86 / 72 / 35 / 39 / 71 = 450 | (MEAN = 64)
Rick Tocchet | 62 / 93 / 67 / 78 / 64 / 80 / 25 / 56 / 53 = 568 | (9 yr MEAN = 63)
Rene Robert | 93 / 44 / 89 / 63 / 72 / 47 / 42 / 56 = 506 | (8 yr MEAN = 63)
Mark Recchi • 2 | 65 / 52 / 55 / 44 / 70 / 58 / 50 = 444 | (MEAN = 63)
Owen Nolan • 2 | 100 / 46 / 56 / 64 / 51 = 317 | (5 yr MEAN = 63)
Tomas Sandstrom | 50 / 41 / 76 / 56 / 66 / 58 / 88 = 435| (MEAN = 62)
Hakan Loob | 58 / 64 / 51 / 34 / 100 / 56 = 363 | (6 yr MEAN = 61)

Brian Bellows | 58 / 79 / 45 / 51 / 48 / LW / LW / LW / LW / LW / 67 / 58 = 406 | (MEAN = 58)
Jerry Toppazzini | 46 / 83 / 64 / 42 / 52 / 68 / 49 = 404 | (MEAN = 58)

||
||
||

Babe Dye | 219 / 100 / 108 / 178 / 211 / 100 / 100 = 1026 | (MEAN = 147)
Charlie Conacher | 69 / 103 / 148 / 67 / 200 / 144 / 128 = 859 | (MEAN = 123)
Gord Drillon | 80 / 124 / 95 / 100 / 100 / 100 / 100 = 699 | (MEAN = 100)
||
Cecil Dillon | 100 / 100 / 81 / 100 / 100 / 100 / 100 = 681 | (MEAN = 97)
Bill Cook | 132 / 100 / 86 / 100 / 100 / 148 / 133 / 81 / 84 = 864 | (9 yr MEAN = 96)
Bryan Hextall Sr | 83 / 105 / 114 / 113 / 104 / 96 / 60 / 67 = 742 | (8 yr MEAN = 93)
||
Punch Broadbent | 95 / INJ / 103 / 58 / 100 / 78 / 67 = 501 | (6 yr MEAN = 84)
Dit Clapper | 141 / 73 / 74 / 67 / 63 / 84 / 67 / 85 = 654 | (8 yr MEAN = 82)
Lorne Carr • 2 | 57 / 70 / 96 / 103 / 75 = 401 | (5 yr MEAN = 80)
||
Bobby Bauer | 95 / 70 / 81 / 74 / 65 / MIL / MIL / 58 / 100 = 543 | (MEAN = 78)
Larry Aurie | 48 / 52 / 57 / 100 / 68 / 89 / 115 = 529 | (MEAN = 76)
Lorne Carr • 1 | 68 / 44 / 80 / 76 / 100 = 368 | (5 yr MEAN = 74)
||
Ace Bailey | 60 / 50 / 122 / 76 / 77 / 35 / 48 = 468 | (MEAN = 67)
Harry Oliver | 72 / 72 / 94 / 55 / 64 / 57 / 52 = 466 | (MEAN = 67)
Joe Carveth | 64 / 66 / 93 / 90 / 70 / 36 / 71 = 460 | (MEAN = 66)
Jimmy Ward | 78 / 35 / 61 / 83 / 76 / 88 / 36 / 67 / 70 = 584 | (9 yr MEAN = 65)
||
George Armstrong | 47 / 52 / 35 / 55 / 55 / 57 / 61 / 81 / CTR / CTR / 80 / 56 / 55 = 632 | (MEAN = 58)
||

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I'd like to see the results using the following:

- 7 season benchmark

- value weighting: 18, 19, 20, 19, 18, 17, 16

- minimum value 50

See results (1926-2013):

Rank | Player | Rank
1 | Wayne Gretzky | 155.1
2 | Gordie Howe | 126
3 | Phil Esposito | 123.4
4 | Mario Lemieux | 120.4
5 | Jaromir Jagr | 114.6
6 | Bobby Orr | 109.3
7 | Stan Mikita | 108.1
8 | Bobby Hull | 107.1
9 | Jean Beliveau | 105.9
10 | Maurice Richard | 105.7
11 | Guy Lafleur | 104.9
12 | Ted Lindsay | 104.8
13 | Bill Cowley | 103.5
14 | Marcel Dionne | 103.2
15 | Howie Morenz | 102.8
16 | Andy Bathgate | 101.2
17 | Joe Sakic | 97.9
18 | Charlie Conacher | 97.1
19 | Bill Cook | 96.6
20 | Alex Ovechkin | 96.2
21 | Doug Bentley | 96.2
22 | Frank Boucher | 95.4
23 | Elmer Lach | 95.4
24 | Max Bentley | 94.9
25 | Mike Bossy | 94.4
26 | Steve Yzerman | 93.5
27 | Bryan Trottier | 93.5
28 | Joe Thornton | 93.3
29 | Syl Apps Sr | 93
30 | Teemu Selanne | 92.9
31 | Toe Blake | 92.6
32 | Martin St. Louis | 92.5
33 | Sweeney Schriner | 91.9
34 | Peter Forsberg | 90.9
35 | Nels Stewart | 90.5
36 | Sidney Crosby | 90.5
37 | Adam Oates | 90.2
38 | Bernie Geoffrion | 90.2
39 | Busher Jackson | 90
40 | Marty Barry | 89.9
41 | Mark Messier | 89.5
42 | Roy Conacher | 88.8
43 | Mark Recchi | 88.6
44 | Norm Ullman | 88.6
45 | Jean Ratelle | 88.5
46 | Peter Stastny | 88.3
47 | Brett Hull | 88.2
48 | Jari Kurri | 88.1
49 | Gordie Drillon | 88.1
50 | Syd Howe | 87.9
51 | Sid Abel | 87.8
52 | Paul Coffey | 87.7
53 | Bobby Clarke | 87.6
54 | Ron Francis | 87.6
55 | Milt Schmidt | 87.5
56 | Jarome Iginla | 87
57 | Dickie Moore | 86
58 | Pavel Bure | 86
59 | Dale Hawerchuk | 85.9
60 | Henri Richard | 85.6
61 | Frank Mahovlich | 85.5
62 | Paul Kariya | 85.4
63 | Denis Savard | 85.4
64 | Eric Lindros | 85.4
65 | John Bucyk | 85.3
66 | Alex Delvecchio | 84.9
67 | Gilbert Perreault | 84.6
68 | Bryan Hextall | 84.5
69 | Luc Robitaille | 84.4
70 | Ilya Kovalchuk | 84.3
71 | Darryl Sittler | 84.1
72 | Markus Naslund | 83.6
73 | Paul Thompson | 83.2
74 | Aurel Joliat | 83.1
75 | Henrik Sedin | 82.8
76 | Marian Hossa | 82.6
77 | Clint Smith | 82.6
78 | Daniel Alfredsson | 82.6
79 | Mats Sundin | 82.3
80 | Doug Gilmour | 82.3
81 | Theoren Fleury | 82.3
82 | Pierre Turgeon | 82.3
83 | Bill Mosienko | 82.2
84 | John LeClair | 82.1
85 | Pavel Datsyuk | 82
86 | Mike Modano | 81.7
87 | Jeremy Roenick | 81.5
88 | Ted Kennedy | 81.5
89 | Dany Heatley | 81.5
90 | Lynn Patrick | 81.2
91 | Sergei Fedorov | 81
92 | Evgeni Malkin | 80.7
93 | Ziggy Palffy | 80.6
94 | Bernie Nicholls | 80.3
95 | Rod Gilbert | 80.2
96 | Lorne Carr | 80.2
97 | Ken Hodge | 79.9
98 | Cooney Weiland | 79.4
99 | Brendan Shanahan | 79.3
100 | Michel Goulet | 79.3
101 | Patrik Elias | 79.3
102 | Keith Tkachuk | 79.3
103 | Pat LaFontaine | 78.8
104 | Hooley Smith | 78.8
105 | Doug Weight | 78.6
106 | Cecil Dillon | 78.4
107 | Eric Staal | 78.4
108 | Brad Richards | 78.4
109 | Alexander Mogilny | 78.1
110 | Phil Watson | 78.1
111 | Alexei Yashin | 77.6
112 | Daniel Sedin | 77.3
113 | Bernie Federko | 77.3
114 | Vincent Lecavalier | 77.2
115 | Henrik Zetterberg | 76.7
116 | Bun Cook | 76.6
117 | Bert Olmstead | 76.3
118 | Bobby Bauer | 76.2
119 | Joe Primeau | 76
120 | Bobby Rousseau | 76
121 | Alex Kovalev | 75.8
122 | Red Kelly | 75.7
123 | Herbie Lewis | 75.6
124 | Jacques Lemaire | 75.5
125 | Raymond Bourque | 75.3
126 | Jason Spezza | 75.2
127 | Pavol Demitra | 75.2
128 | Johnny Gottselig | 75
129 | Phil Goyette | 74.9
130 | Lanny McDonald | 74.6
131 | Denis Potvin | 74.3
132 | Vincent Damphousse | 74.2
133 | Bill Thoms | 74.2
134 | Brian Leetch | 74.1
135 | Dit Clapper | 74.1
136 | Rick Middleton | 74
137 | Marc Savard | 73.9
138 | Milan Hejduk | 73.8
139 | Don McKenney | 73.8
140 | Yvan Cournoyer | 73.6
141 | Woody Dumart | 73.5
142 | Tony Amonte | 73.3
143 | Neil Colville | 73.2
144 | Dave Keon | 73.2
145 | Gaye Stewart | 73.1
146 | Ray Whitney | 73
147 | Rod Brind'Amour | 72.8
148 | Larry Aurie | 72.7
149 | Peter Bondra | 72.5
150 | Alex Tanguay | 72.5
151 | Herb Cain | 72.2
152 | Eddie Wiseman | 72.1
153 | Steve Larmer | 72.1
154 | Glenn Anderson | 71.9
155 | Kent Nilsson | 71.7
156 | Dennis Maruk | 71.7
157 | Mike Ribeiro | 71.7
158 | Rick MacLeish | 71.6
159 | Tod Sloan | 71.5
160 | Ryan Getzlaf | 71.5
161 | Joe Mullen | 71.4
162 | Buddy O'Connor | 71.3
163 | Patrick Marleau | 71
164 | Johnny Gagnon | 71
165 | Steve Shutt | 70.8
166 | Al MacInnis | 70.6
167 | Kenny Wharram | 70.6
168 | Joe Nieuwendyk | 70.5
169 | Dave Taylor | 70.4
170 | Pete Mahovlich | 70.3
171 | Rick Martin | 70.2
172 | Anze Kopitar | 69.9
173 | Dino Ciccarelli | 69.9
174 | Marian Gaborik | 69.9
175 | Ebbie Goodfellow | 69.8
176 | Nicklas Lidstrom | 69.7
177 | Billy Taylor | 69.5
178 | Rene Robert | 69.4
179 | Dave Andreychuk | 69.4
180 | Baldy Northcott | 69.3
181 | Todd Bertuzzi | 69.2
182 | Paul Ronty | 69.1
183 | Bobby Smith | 69.1
184 | Jimmy Ward | 69
185 | Gus Bodnar | 68.7
186 | Sid Smith | 68.6
187 | Bill Barber | 68.6
188 | Miroslav Satan | 68.6
189 | Olli Jokinen | 68.5
190 | Mike Gartner | 68.5
191 | Ed Litzenberger | 68.5
192 | Robert Lang | 68.3
193 | Scott Gomez | 68.1
194 | Ace Bailey | 68.1
195 | Steve Sullivan | 68
196 | Martin Straka | 68
197 | Pit Martin | 67.9
198 | Craig Janney | 67.9
199 | Kevin Stevens | 67.8
200 | Camille Henry | 67.4
201 | Jason Allison | 67.2
202 | Dean Prentice | 67.1
203 | Brian Propp | 67
204 | Garry Unger | 67
205 | Syl Apps | 66.9
206 | Owen Nolan | 66.9
207 | Claude Provost | 66.9
208 | Butch Goring | 66.7
209 | Art Jackson | 66.7
210 | Rick Nash | 66.6
211 | Peter McNab | 66.5
212 | Petr Nedved | 66.4
213 | Shane Doan | 66.3
214 | Fred Stanfield | 66.2
215 | Glen Murray | 66.2
216 | Pierre Larouche | 66.1
217 | Art Chapman | 66
218 | Alex Zhamnov | 65.9
219 | Patrick Kane | 65.7
220 | Charlie Simmer | 65.5
221 | Wilf Paiement | 65.4
222 | Dennis Hull | 65.2
223 | Joe Carveth | 65.2
224 | Murray Oliver | 65.1
225 | Petr Sykora | 65.1
226 | Barry Pederson | 65
227 | Kirk Muller | 65
228 | Wayne Cashman | 65
229 | Walt Tkaczuk | 64.9
230 | Red Berenson | 64.9
231 | Brian Bellows | 64.9
232 | Vic Stasiuk | 64.8
233 | Phil Housley | 64.8
234 | Johnny Peirson | 64.7
235 | Thomas Vanek | 64.7
236 | Cory Stillman | 64.7
237 | Grant Warwick | 64.7
238 | Corey Perry | 64.7
239 | Neal Broten | 64.5
240 | Bill Guerin | 64.5
241 | Vaclav Prospal | 64.5
242 | Greg Adams | 64.5
243 | Bill Hay | 64.3
244 | Zach Parise | 64.3
245 | Pat Verbeek | 64.3
246 | Tom Lysiak | 64
247 | John McKenzie | 63.9
248 | Cam Neely | 63.8
249 | Michael Nylander | 63.7
250 | Eddie Shore | 63.7

Note that I haven't calculated a minimum score of 50 for each year.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I think this is likely to give us the best basis for comparing relative scoring across all eras. Then maybe one for post-expansion players only:

- 10 season benchmark

- 18, 19, 20, 19, 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 13

- minimum value 50

See results (1927-2013):

Rank | Player | Result
1 | Wayne Gretzky | 146.2
2 | Gordie Howe | 119.8
3 | Phil Esposito | 114.7
4 | Mario Lemieux | 113.9
5 | Jaromir Jagr | 107.7
6 | Stan Mikita | 103
7 | Maurice Richard | 102.2
8 | Bobby Hull | 101.6
9 | Jean Beliveau | 101.1
10 | Marcel Dionne | 97.9
11 | Ted Lindsay | 97.7
12 | Andy Bathgate | 96.8
13 | Joe Sakic | 94.8
14 | Bill Cowley | 93.7
15 | Guy Lafleur | 92.7
16 | Bobby Orr | 92.1
17 | Howie Morenz | 91.8
18 | Frank Boucher | 90.2
19 | Mike Bossy | 90.1
20 | Steve Yzerman | 89.7
21 | Teemu Selanne | 89.6
22 | Joe Thornton | 89
23 | Bryan Trottier | 88.2
24 | Toe Blake | 88.2
25 | Nels Stewart | 87.9
26 | Elmer Lach | 87.4
27 | Syl Apps Sr | 87.1
28 | Adam Oates | 87
29 | Bill Cook | 87
30 | Martin St. Louis | 86
31 | Mark Messier | 85.7
32 | Doug Bentley | 85.6
33 | Charlie Conacher | 85.5
34 | Mark Recchi | 85.2
35 | Max Bentley | 85.2
36 | Ron Francis | 84.9
37 | Bernie Geoffrion | 84.8
38 | Brett Hull | 84.5
39 | Norm Ullman | 84.5
40 | Jean Ratelle | 84.4
41 | Peter Forsberg | 84
42 | Marty Barry | 83.5
43 | Sweeney Schriner | 83.5
44 | Alex Delvecchio | 83.3
45 | Paul Coffey | 82.9
46 | Syd Howe | 82.8
47 | Jari Kurri | 82.5
48 | Dale Hawerchuk | 82.4
49 | Frank Mahovlich | 82.3
50 | Busher Jackson | 82.2
51 | Peter Stastny | 82.1
52 | Jarome Iginla | 82
53 | Bobby Clarke | 82
54 | John Bucyk | 81.9
55 | Luc Robitaille | 81.7
56 | Gilbert Perreault | 80.8
57 | Milt Schmidt | 80.7
58 | Mats Sundin | 80.5
59 | Henri Richard | 80.3
60 | Paul Kariya | 80.1
61 | Darryl Sittler | 79.9
62 | Pierre Turgeon | 79.6
63 | Denis Savard | 79.2
64 | Roy Conacher | 79.1
65 | Theoren Fleury | 78.9
66 | Sid Abel | 78.9
67 | Mike Modano | 78.5
68 | Ilya Kovalchuk | 78.5
69 | Daniel Alfredsson | 78.4
70 | Doug Gilmour | 78.3
71 | Alex Ovechkin | 78.3
72 | Rod Gilbert | 78.2
73 | Sergei Fedorov | 77.9
74 | Eric Lindros | 77.8
75 | Marian Hossa | 77.6
76 | Jeremy Roenick | 77.2
77 | Ted Kennedy | 77
78 | Aurel Joliat | 76.8
79 | Dickie Moore | 76.7
80 | Pavel Datsyuk | 76
81 | Bill Mosienko | 76
82 | Henrik Sedin | 75.6
83 | Pavel Bure | 75.6
84 | Brendan Shanahan | 75.5
85 | Bryan Hextall | 75.4
86 | Markus Naslund | 75.3
87 | Keith Tkachuk | 75
88 | Bernie Nicholls | 74.8
89 | Lorne Carr | 74.5
90 | Bernie Federko | 74.4
91 | Patrik Elias | 74.4
92 | Clint Smith | 74.4
93 | Dany Heatley | 74.3
94 | Brad Richards | 74.3
95 | Alexander Mogilny | 74.1
96 | John LeClair | 73.5
97 | Doug Weight | 73.5
98 | Pat LaFontaine | 73.3
99 | Michel Goulet | 73.2
100 | Ken Hodge | 72.8
101 | Phil Watson | 72.6
102 | Alexei Yashin | 72.4
103 | Vincent Lecavalier | 72.3
104 | Raymond Bourque | 72.1
105 | Daniel Sedin | 71.9
106 | Paul Thompson | 71.7
107 | Vincent Damphousse | 71.7
108 | Lynn Patrick | 71.7
109 | Ziggy Palffy | 71.7
110 | Hooley Smith | 71.6
111 | Red Kelly | 71.5
112 | Sidney Crosby | 71.4
113 | Cooney Weiland | 71.4
114 | Bert Olmstead | 70.7
115 | Dave Keon | 70.5
116 | Bun Cook | 70.5
117 | Jacques Lemaire | 70.4
118 | Henrik Zetterberg | 70.3
119 | Alex Kovalev | 70.2
120 | Dit Clapper | 70.1
121 | Brian Leetch | 70
122 | Johnny Gottselig | 69.8
123 | Yvan Cournoyer | 69.6
124 | Bobby Rousseau | 69.6
125 | Woody Dumart | 69.5
126 | Cecil Dillon | 69.5
127 | Rod Brind'Amour | 69.4
128 | Pavol Demitra | 69.4
129 | Ray Whitney | 69.4
130 | Lanny McDonald | 69.2
131 | Steve Larmer | 68.8
132 | Phil Goyette | 68.8
133 | Tony Amonte | 68.7
134 | Denis Potvin | 68.6
135 | Rick Middleton | 68.4
136 | Don McKenney | 68.3
137 | Milan Hejduk | 68.2
138 | Herbie Lewis | 68
139 | Peter Bondra | 67.9
140 | Alex Tanguay | 67.6
141 | Joe Mullen | 67.4
142 | Dino Ciccarelli | 67.3
143 | Eric Staal | 67.3
144 | Bill Thoms | 67.3
145 | Herb Cain | 67.2
146 | Joe Nieuwendyk | 67.2
147 | Al MacInnis | 67
148 | Patrick Marleau | 66.9
149 | Glenn Anderson | 66.7
150 | Bobby Smith | 66.7
151 | Dave Andreychuk | 66.7
152 | Nicklas Lidstrom | 66.5
153 | Mike Gartner | 66.3
154 | Gordie Drillon | 66.2
155 | Marc Savard | 66.1
156 | Pete Mahovlich | 66
157 | Bill Barber | 65.6
158 | Dave Taylor | 65.2
159 | Dennis Maruk | 65.1
160 | Ebbie Goodfellow | 64.9
161 | Brian Propp | 64.9
162 | Buddy O'Connor | 64.9
163 | Dean Prentice | 64.6
164 | Scott Gomez | 64.3
165 | Eddie Wiseman | 64.3
166 | Marian Gaborik | 64.3
167 | Larry Aurie | 64.2
168 | Tod Sloan | 64.1
169 | Rick MacLeish | 63.9
170 | Mike Ribeiro | 63.7
171 | Pit Martin | 63.5
172 | Jason Spezza | 63.5
173 | Miroslav Satan | 63.3
174 | Kenny Wharram | 63.2
175 | Owen Nolan | 63.1
176 | Shane Doan | 63.1
177 | Rick Martin | 63
178 | Steve Shutt | 62.9
179 | Garry Unger | 62.8
180 | Phil Housley | 62.7
181 | Olli Jokinen | 62.4
182 | Alex Zhamnov | 62.3
183 | Steve Sullivan | 62.3
184 | Craig Janney | 62
185 | Todd Bertuzzi | 61.9
186 | Brian Bellows | 61.8
187 | Gus Bodnar | 61.8
188 | Jimmy Ward | 61.7
189 | Rick Nash | 61.6
190 | Robert Lang | 61.5
191 | Tom Lysiak | 61.5
192 | Butch Goring | 61.3
193 | Johnny Gagnon | 61.3
194 | Pat Verbeek | 61.2
195 | Martin Straka | 61
196 | Claude Provost | 60.9
197 | Petr Sykora | 60.8
198 | Murray Oliver | 60.8
199 | Rene Robert | 60.8
200 | Pierre Larouche | 60.7
201 | Evgeni Malkin | 60.6
202 | Camille Henry | 60.6
203 | Petr Nedved | 60.3
204 | Kirk Muller | 60.1
205 | Ryan Smyth | 59.9
206 | Cory Stillman | 59.8
207 | Peter McNab | 59.7
208 | Gaye Stewart | 59.6
209 | Dennis Hull | 59.6
210 | Vyacheslav Kozlov | 59.6
211 | Wayne Cashman | 59.6
212 | Neil Colville | 59.5
213 | Kevin Stevens | 59.5
214 | Wilf Paiement | 59.4
215 | Jason Arnott | 59.3
216 | Bill Guerin | 59.3
217 | Neal Broten | 59.3
218 | Andrew Brunette | 59.3
219 | Cliff Ronning | 59.1
220 | Sergei Gonchar | 59
221 | Eddie Shore | 58.9
222 | Bob Nevin | 58.9
223 | Vic Hadfield | 58.8
224 | Jozef Stumpel | 58.8
225 | Larry Murphy | 58.7
226 | Jean Pronovost | 58.5
227 | Fred Stanfield | 58.5
228 | George Armstrong | 58.5
229 | Steve Thomas | 58.5
230 | Red Berenson | 58.4
231 | Gary Roberts | 58.3
232 | Ivan Boldirev | 58.3
233 | Chris Drury | 58.2
234 | Tomas Sandstrom | 58
235 | Michael Nylander | 57.9
236 | Glen Murray | 57.8
237 | Mush March | 57.8
238 | Greg Adams | 57.8
239 | Baldy Northcott | 57.8
240 | Rick Tocchet | 57.8
241 | Bobby Bauer | 57.7
242 | Saku Koivu | 57.5
243 | Joe Primeau | 57.4
244 | Mike Ridley | 57.4
245 | Kent Nilsson | 57.4
246 | Robert Reichel | 57.3
247 | Andrew Cassels | 57.2
248 | Walt Tkaczuk | 57.2
249 | Brad Park | 57.2
250 | Vaclav Prospal | 57.2

Again, I haven't applied a minimum score of 50 for each season.

 

[BraveCanadian]

So that I don't have to dig through the whole thread again:

Someone explain to me why we are weighing seasons differently?

 

[BillyShoe1721]

So that I don't have to dig through the whole thread again:

Someone explain to me why we are weighing seasons differently?

To show who had higher peaks, I believe. For instance, I think 95, 90, 85, 70, 65, 60 will show up better than just six scores of 77.5. I could be completely wrong though.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I really appreciate all of the great work that is being done in this thread. There is one thing that I still do not quite understand... Why are you using the 10% method on teammates of outliers? It seems like the 10% method is a great way to determine who is an outlier, but when it comes to teammates of outliers why does it matter if they are an outlier too? Most of the time we know they would have had a lower point total if they were in any situation other than being the teammate of an outlier. Here are some examples:

1984: Paul Coffey is used as the benchmark...he outscored Michel Goulet by 5 points. Does anyone in their right mind really think Coffey would have outscored Goulet if he wasn't playing with a Gretzky type of teammate? Goulet earned himself a score of 100, but instead he will get a 96...not a huge difference, but there's no question to me which is more accurate, and don't we want to be as accurate as we can?


1985: Same situation but with Kurri and Hawerchuk...Hawerchuk is denied a well earned score of 100, and was very likely the second best offensive player that season, which is what is trying to be determined.


1974:
1. Esposito - 145
2. Orr - 122
3. Hodge - 105
4. Cashman - 89
5. Clarke - 87
6. Martin - 86
...average as benchmark: 106

Why is Orr included in the average? Common sense tells us that he is clearly an outlier. Were Hodge or Cashman really better offensive players that year than Clarke? Would they have had a chance at putting up those point totals with a league average #1 C and #1 Dman instead of Esposito and Orr? For our purposes, whenever a comparison is done that involves Hodge or Cashman everyone knows that their team situation needs to be taken into account, and their vs.X numbers are looked at differently than other players, but what about Clarke and Martin? Is Clarke's offense this season really equal to a score of 82 in other seasons (last year that would've been somewhere in-between John Tavares and Patrick Elias)? If not, are people going to remember to treat this year differently for them? Why not just make Clarke the benchmark, so you only have to worry about Boston players when making comparisons?


I want to emphasize again, that I think the work being done in this thread is terrific...Raising these concerns is just my attempt at making this system even better.

 

[Sturminator]

I meant to thank you for this before, HO. The level of interest and participation that we've had in this thread continues to surprise and please me. The greatest virtue of this project is almost certainly the fact that it is the result of an ongoing iterative process - the fruit of a discussion started years ago by BM67 to which many people have added their analysis and opinion. This is "open source" historiography.

 

[BubbaBoot]

It's been a pretty flexible formula that's been pretty good for assessing numbers beyond the standard straight stats.

 

[Sturminator]

To show who had higher peaks, I believe. For instance, I think 95, 90, 85, 70, 65, 60 will show up better than just six scores of 77.5. I could be completely wrong though.

That is correct. It is an attempt to acknowledge that a player's best seasons are also his most important, from a career perspective. I find seventies' idea of weighing the 3rd best season the most to be the best we've come up with yet, because I think by the time you get to the 3rd best season, you are in the realm of what I would call "sustained production". It is possible for outliers to exist within an individual player's career, just as in an NHL season, and by putting the middle point of the focus on the 3rd best season, I think we dampen the significance of potential outlier seasons.

But this is a matter of personal taste.

 

[Sturminator]

1984: Paul Coffey is used as the benchmark...he outscored Michel Goulet by 5 points. Does anyone in their right mind really think Coffey would have outscored Goulet if he wasn't playing with a Gretzky type of teammate?

Coffey was 6th in NHL scoring in the 1994-95 season, playing in Detroit. Did he have the talent to finish second in league scoring on his own merits? Certainly.

1985: Same situation but with Kurri and Hawerchuk...Hawerchuk is denied a well earned score of 100, and was very likely the second best offensive player that season, which is what is trying to be determined.

Jarri Kurri was 8th in league scoring in 1988-89 with Gretzky playing in LA. He was a very talented scorer, with or without the Great One, whose ass he spent a lot of time covering.

1974:
1. Esposito - 145
2. Orr - 122
3. Hodge - 105
4. Cashman - 89
5. Clarke - 87
6. Martin - 86
...average as benchmark: 106

Obviously we have to treat Cashman and Hodge's production here carefully, and everybody knows that. Those two were never outlier scorers based on talent. But the simple fact of the matter is that those points were scored, and we cannot arbitrarily act as though they do not exist.

Why is Orr included in the average?

Because he scored those points. The whole purpose of the option #3, or averaging system, is to find some sort of middle point between the outliers and the pack and use that as a benchmark on the assumption that this will create the least distortions (not on the assumption that it is perfect).

Also, we cannot simply remove Bobby Orr because he is Bobby Orr. The VsX system treats all players and all seasons equally, and identifies and removes outliers based on a clear, mathematical system. Arbitrarily removing players because of their names or because they are "70's Bruins" is no system, at all, and leads to nothing but endless, and fruitless, disagreement.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Coffey was 6th in NHL scoring in the 1994-95 season, playing in Detroit. Did he have the talent to finish second in league scoring on his own merits? Certainly.



Jarri Kurri was 8th in league scoring in 1988-89 with Gretzky playing in LA. He was a very talented scorer, with or without the Great One, whose ass he spent a lot of time covering.



Obviously we have to treat Cashman and Hodge's production here carefully, and everybody knows that. Those two were never outlier scorers based on talent. But the simple fact of the matter is that those points were scored, and we cannot arbitrarily act as though they do not exist.



Because he scored those points. The whole purpose of the option #3, or averaging system, is to find some sort of middle point between the outliers and the pack and use that as a benchmark on the assumption that this will create the least distortions (not on the assumption that it is perfect).

Also, we cannot simply remove Bobby Orr because he is Bobby Orr. The VsX system treats all players and all seasons equally, and identifies and removes outliers based on a clear, mathematical system. Arbitrarily removing players because of their names or because they are "70's Bruins" is no system, at all, and leads to nothing but endless, and fruitless, disagreement.

I appreciate the response, but I don't understand why you are using things players did in other seasons to make some kind of prediction on whether they are worthy enough to be considered the #2 scorer in a season where we already know how they performed?

I would like answers to these questions...

- Do you think Coffey still outscores Goulet by 5 points in 1984 with a high-end #1 center instead of an offensive freak like Gretzky as a teammate?
- If the answer is yes, then we just disagree, and can move on. If the answer is no, why wouldn't you use Goulet's point total as the benchmark?
- Exact same two questions in regards to Jari Kurri and Dale Hawerchuk in 1985.
- Does Bobby Clarke's offensive performance in 1974 equate to a vs.X score of 82 in most other seasons?
- If the answer is yes, then again, we disagree, and can move on. If the answer is no, what do you think is the best way to treat this season when doing player comparisons?


Here are a few more comments that are not so easily addressed with simple questions like the above...

In regards to the bolded, I agree that we cannot arbitrarily remove players just because of their team. They should be decided on a case-by-case basis. I actually think that the closer an outlier teammate is to the next guy, the easier it is to dismiss him, like in the 1984 and 1985 examples I gave. The more difficult cases are when they have a big lead, like Hodge's 18pt lead over Clarke in 1974. How do we know if all 18 of Hodge's points can be attributed to Orr and Espo? If you want a structured system, perhaps a good compromise would be to average the outlier teammate and best non-outlier teammate scores, and use that as the benchmark? For example, the 1984 score would be123.5, and 132.5 for 1985, and 95.5 for 1974 (this excludes Orr).

As far as Bobby Orr goes, he is such an anomaly that he really has to be treated differently than everyone else. Never has any other defenseman led the NHL is scoring. Never has a defenseman finished 2nd in scoring with such large gaps to 3rd place. A defenseman outscoring all or almost all of the league by that much is an outlier of some kind, and I think it's something that should be accounted for when doing player comparisons. The reason for this can be seen by looking at Bobby Clarke's score of 82 in 1974, which to me clearly undervalues his season when comparing him to scores of 82 in most other seasons.

 

[Sturminator]

In regards to the bolded, I agree that we cannot arbitrarily remove players just because of their team. They should be decided on a case-by-case basis.

They should not be "decided", at all. That is just the point, and perhaps the problem. Deciding to remove player x in season y because you think that his teammate was an outlier is not a method, but a fudge.

Maybe the system could be improved by some sort of further rule? I dunno. If player x in the outlier tier is above a certain threshold, then any line/teammates are automatically removed from the algorithm. Maybe this would be of some use? Why don't you suggest a method? We could test it out and see if it yields results that seem more reasonable than what we have at present. The only thing I am sure of in all of this is that we cannot simply remove players based on some sort of gut feeling.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

They should not be "decided", at all. That is just the point, and perhaps the problem. Deciding to remove player x in season y because you think that his teammate was an outlier is not a method, but a fudge.

Maybe the system could be improved by some sort of further rule? I dunno. If player x in the outlier tier is above a certain threshold, then any line/teammates are automatically removed from the algorithm. Maybe this would be of some use? Why don't you suggest a method? We could test it out and see if it yields results that seem more reasonable than what we have at present. The only thing I am sure of in all of this is that we cannot simply remove players based on some sort of gut feeling.

I think we're getting somewhere here. Your bolded suggestion is a good place to start. We will still partially be going by our gut feeling, because as you said, it's kinda trial and error until we see something that looks right, but a threshold is a good way to make sure we're treating every case equally, which is what I think you are looking for.

I'm still not sure what to do about Orr. I have a feeling that a separate set of rules for defensemen is the beginning of the answer though.

EDIT: I probably won't have time today, but when I do have some I will do my part to contribute to a solution.

 

[Sturminator]

Top-7 weighted VsX for Centers (1926-2012):

Rank | Player | Rank
1 | Wayne Gretzky | 155.1
2 | Phil Esposito | 123.4
3 | Mario Lemieux | 120.4
4 | Jean Beliveau | 108.9
5 | Stan Mikita | 108.1
6 | Bill Cowley* | 103.5
7 | Marcel Dionne | 103.2
8 | Howie Morenz | 102.8
9 | Joe Sakic | 97.9
10 | Frank Boucher | 95.4
11 | Elmer Lach* | 95.4
12 | Max Bentley* | 94.9
13 | Steve Yzerman | 93.5
14 | Bryan Trottier | 93.5
15 | Joe Thornton | 93.3
16 | Syl Apps Sr | 93
17 | Peter Forsberg | 90.9
18 | Nels Stewart | 90.5
19 | Adam Oates | 90.2
20 | Marty Barry | 89.9
21 | Mark Messier | 89.5
22 | Norm Ullman | 88.7
23 | Jean Ratelle | 88.5
24 | Peter Stastny | 88.3
25 | Sid Abel | 87.8
26 | Bobby Clarke | 87.6
27 | Ron Francis | 87.6
28 | Milt Schmidt | 87.5
29 | Henri Richard | 86.2
30 | Dale Hawerchuk | 85.9
31 | Denis Savard | 85.4
32 | Eric Lindros | 85.4
33 | Alex Delvecchio | 84.9
34 | Gilbert Perreault | 84.6
35 | Darryl Sittler | 84.1
36 | Clint Smith* | 82.6
37 | Sidney Crosby | 82.4
38 | Mats Sundin | 82.3
39 | Doug Gilmour | 82.3
40 | Pierre Turgeon | 82.3
41 | Mike Modano | 81.7
42 | Henrik Sedin | 81.7
43 | Jeremy Roenick | 81.5
44 | Ted Kennedy | 81.5
45 | Sergei Fedorov | 81
46 | Bernie Nicholls | 80.3
47 | Cooney Weiland | 79.4
48 | Pavel Datsyuk | 78.9
49 | Pat LaFontaine | 78.8
50 | Hooley Smith | 78.8
51 | Doug Weight | 78.6
52 | Brad Richards | 78.4
53 | Phil Watson | 78.1
54 | Alexei Yashin | 77.6
55 | Bernie Federko | 77.3
56 | Vincent Lecavalier | 77.2
57 | Joe Primeau | 76
58 | Don McKenney | 75.8
59 | Jacques Lemaire | 75.5
60 | Jason Spezza | 75.2
61 | Phil Goyette | 74.9
62 | Vincent Damphousse | 74.2
63 | Bill Thoms | 74.2
64 | Marc Savard | 73.9
65 | Eric Staal | 73.8
66 | Neil Colville | 73.2
67 | Evgeni Malkin | 73.2
68 | Henrik Zetterberg | 73.2
69 | Dave Keon | 73.2
70 | Rod Brind'Amour | 72.8
71 | Tod Sloan | 72.8
72 | Kent Nilsson | 71.7
73 | Dennis Maruk | 71.7
74 | Rick MacLeish | 71.6
75 | Buddy O'Connor* | 71.3
76 | Patrick Marleau | 71
77 | Ed Litzenberger | 70.8
78 | Joe Nieuwendyk | 70.5
79 | Pete Mahovlich | 70.3
80 | Billy Taylor* | 69.5
81 | Paul Ronty | 69.1
82 | Bobby Smith | 69.1
83 | Olli Jokinen | 68.5
84 | Scott Gomez | 68.1
85 | Steve Sullivan | 68
86 | Pit Martin | 67.9
87 | Craig Janney | 67.9
88 | Jason Allison | 67.2
89 | Garry Unger | 67
90 | Syl Apps | 66.9
91 | Butch Goring | 66.7
92 | Art Jackson* | 66.7
93 | Mike Ribeiro | 66.4
94 | Petr Nedved | 66.4
95 | Fred Stanfield | 66.2
96 | Pierre Larouche | 66.1
97 | Art Chapman | 66
98 | Alex Zhamnov | 65.9
99 | Murray Oliver | 65.1
100 | Barry Pederson | 65
101 | Walt Tkaczuk | 64.9
102 | Red Berenson | 64.9
103 | Cory Stillman | 64.7
104 | Ryan Getzlaf | 64.6
105 | Neal Broten | 64.5
106 | Vaclav Prospal | 64.5
107 | Tom Lysiak | 64
108 | Michael Nylander | 63.7
109 | Jozef Stumpel | 63.1

* wartime star

 

[Sturminator]

Top-7 weighted VsX for Defensemen (1926-2012):

Rank | Player | Rank
1 | Bobby Orr | 109.3
2 | Paul Coffey | 87.7
3 | Raymond Bourque | 75.3
4 | Denis Potvin | 74.3
5 | Brian Leetch | 74.1
6 | Red Kelly* | 71
7 | Al MacInnis | 70.6
8 | Nicklas Lidstrom | 69.7
9 | Phil Housley | 64.8
10 | Eddie Shore | 63.7
11 | Sergei Gonchar | 62
12 | Bill Gadsby | 61.1
13 | Brad Park | 61
14 | Doug Harvey | 60.3
15 | Sergei Zubov | 59.4
16 | Pierre Pilote | 59.2
17 | Larry Robinson | 59
18 | Gary Suter | 56.7
19 | King Clancy | 56.4
20 | Mark Howe | 53.1
21 | Doug Wilson | 53
22 | Chris Chelios | 52
23 | Dan Boyle | 51.6

* only counting time on D

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Top-7 weighted VsX for Defensemen (1926-2012):

Rank | Player | Rank
1 | Bobby Orr | 109.3
2 | Paul Coffey | 87.7
3 | Red Kelly* | 75.7
4 | Raymond Bourque | 75.3
5 | Denis Potvin | 74.3
6 | Brian Leetch | 74.1
7 | Dit Clapper* | 74.1
8 | Al MacInnis | 70.6
9 | Ebbie Goodfellow* | 69.8
10 | Nicklas Lidstrom | 69.7
11 | Phil Housley | 64.8

* spent substantial time at forward

We know the exact years Kelly, Clapper, and Goodfellow spent at D and at F; why not just only look at their years at D? I would imagine that Goodfellow and Clapper drop off the list entirely, while Kelly's position is barely affected.

 

[Sturminator]

Top-7 weighted VsX for Left Wings (1926-2012):

Rank | Player | Rank
1 | Bobby Hull | 107.1
2 | Ted Lindsay | 106
3 | Doug Bentley* ** | 96.2
4 | Toe Blake* | 92.6
5 | Alex Ovechkin | 92.1
6 | Sweeney Schriner | 91.9
7 | Busher Jackson | 90
8 | Roy Conacher** | 88.8
9 | Dickie Moore | 88.6
10 | Syd Howe* | 87.9
11 | Sid Abel | 87.8
12 | John Bucyk | 86.3
13 | Frank Mahovlich | 85.5
14 | Paul Kariya | 85.4
15 | Alex Delvecchio | 84.9
16 | Luc Robitaille | 84.4
17 | Ilya Kovalchuk | 84.3
18 | Markus Naslund | 83.6
19 | Paul Thompson | 83.2
20 | Aurel Joliat | 83.1
21 | John LeClair | 82.1
22 | Lynn Patrick* | 81.2
23 | Brendan Shanahan | 79.3
24 | Michel Goulet | 79.3
25 | Keith Tkachuk | 79.3
26 | Patrik Elias | 79.2
27 | Bert Olmstead | 76.9
28 | Daniel Sedin | 76.9
29 | Bun Cook | 76.6
30 | Herbie Lewis | 75.6
31 | Pavol Demitra | 75.2
32 | Johnny Gottselig | 75
33 | Vincent Damphousse | 74.2
34 | Milan Hejduk | 73.8
35 | Woody Dumart | 73.5
36 | Gaye Stewart* | 73.1
37 | Ray Whitney | 73
38 | Alex Tanguay | 72.5
39 | Herb Cain* | 72.2
40 | Patrick Marleau | 71
41 | Steve Shutt | 70.8
42 | Pete Mahovlich | 70.3
43 | Rick Martin | 70.2
44 | Dave Andreychuk | 69.4
45 | Baldy Northcott | 69.3
46 | Sid Smith | 69.1
47 | Bill Barber | 68.6
48 | Camille Henry | 68.6
49 | Miroslav Satan | 68.6
50 | Dean Prentice | 68
51 | Kevin Stevens | 67.8
52 | Brian Propp | 67
53 | Vic Stasiuk | 66.5
54 | Shane Doan | 66.3
55 | Fred Stanfield | 66.2
56 | Charlie Simmer | 65.5
57 | Dennis Hull | 65.2
58 | Kirk Muller | 65
59 | Wayne Cashman | 65
60 | Red Berenson | 64.9
61 | Brian Bellows | 64.9
62 | Cory Stillman | 64.7
63 | Greg Adams | 64.5
64 | Bill Hay | 64.3
66 | Mats Naslund | 63.5
67 | Vyacheslav Kozlov | 63.5
68 | Rick Nash | 63.5
69 | Simon Gagne | 63.1

* wartime star

** 1949-50 Chicago

 

[Sturminator]

We know the exact years Kelly, Clapper, and Goodfellow spent at D and at F; why not just only look at their years at D? I would imagine that Goodfellow and Clapper drop off the list entirely, while Kelly's position is barely affected.

Tell me what they are, and I'll calculate their scores by hand. I added Eddie Shore to the list. I had missed him the first time through. Remarkable that he makes it, at all, given the era in which he played. We should probably calculate the scores for Sergei Gonchar, as well.