POLL — Who should have their number retired first - Toe Blake or Carey Price?

[Lafleurs Guy]

You’re soundly in the minority here. Maybe they should tell you something.

It tells me that people don’t look closely at Roy’s career. They look at the stats with no context. Whereas with Dryden they write off his accomplishments as being due to his teams.

The consensus is between Hasek/Roy at number 1. Who you pick between the two is up for debate.

Not really. Hasek is significantly better. And he beat Roy head to head twice, once with a vastly inferior team at the Olympics.

And I don’t see how Roy is ahead of Dryden. Instead of appeals to “but everyone says so” give me your reasoning. Because I don’t see it. In his short career Dryden was next to invincible and his teams were never able to win without him being on the roster. He also beat superior teams and never shat the bed the way Roy did.

Yes, he’s that much further ahead than Belfour, Joseph, Brodeur etc.

Better than Brodeur? Sure. Much better? No. The point that I was making was in terms of what a “generational” player is. My definition is more stringent than most. I don’t think it’s enough for you to be the best of your generation, you have to be the best by far. I don’t see the separation there. Others in this thread called Price generational. I don’t agree. I think he’s the best goalie of his generation but that doesn’t make him generational, esp with Lundqvist having some overlap with his career.

I have hasek as the best goalie ever, but Patrick isn’t far behind and Carey will never be in the discussion.

Carey will likely be in the top 30 somewhere. But again, that’s based on accomplishment. In terms of ability, I’d put him (and Lundqvist) right there with any of those top goalies. And it’s just the way it will be going forward. More and more great players will wind up on crap teams and retire without cups. It’s a different league.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

It tells me that people don’t look closely at Roy’s career. They look at the stats with no context. Whereas with Dryden they write off his accomplishments as being due to his teams.

Not really. Hasek is significantly better. And he beat Roy head to head twice, once with a vastly inferior team at the Olympics.

And I don’t see how Roy is ahead of Dryden. Instead of appeals to “but everyone says so” give me your reasoning. Because I don’t see it. In his short career Dryden was next to invincible and his teams were never able to win without him being on the roster. He also beat superior teams and never shat the bed the way Roy did.



Better than Brodeur? Sure. Much better? No. The point that I was making was in terms of what a “generational” player is. My definition is more stringent than most. I don’t think it’s enough for you to be the best of your generation, you have to be the best by far. I don’t see the separation there. Others in this thread called Price generational. I don’t agree. I think he’s the best goalie of his generation but that doesn’t make him generational, esp with Lundqvist having some overlap with his career.

Carey will likely be in the top 30 somewhere. But again, that’s based on accomplishment. In terms of ability, I’d put him (and Lundqvist) right there with any of those top goalies. And it’s just the way it will be going forward. More and more great players will wind up on crap teams and retire without cups. It’s a different league.

Head to head seriously? Roy is considered the best or 2nd best by just about anyone who has looked at this extensively. You haven’t made a sound case for why months of research/debate is wrong. You’re stubborn, no doubt and I can appreciate that. I am too, but you’re take is just wrong on this.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Head to head seriously? Roy is considered the best or 2nd best by just about anyone who has looked at this extensively. You haven’t made a sound case for why months of research/debate is wrong.

Are we talking Dryden or Price?

In the case of Price, Roy had the better career. It’s open and shut. But he had teams Price could only dream of. That’s the big separator between them. Price also wasn’t as healthy and that hurt his career.

In the case of Dryden? I don’t see how Roy is better. Dryden has the better clubs overall here but he did win early on with lesser teams. He was more consistent and has the most insane resume ever. Roy on the other hand, shat the bed a lot.

People only look at one side of the ledger with Roy. They see four cups, most playoff wins and forget the rest. And I get it. It’s a f***ing amazing career and he’s an all time great. But he’s not the best ever. Inconsistency is one issue, not having beaten superior teams is another.

You’re stubborn, no doubt and I can appreciate that. I am too, but you’re take is just wrong on this.

Cool, show me how it’s wrong.

 

[Natey]

When the Hockey News made a list of the 100 greatest goaltenders of all time in 2018, their top ten was:

Terry Sawchuk
Patrick Roy
Martin Brodeur
Jacques Plante
Dominik Hasek
Glenn Hall
Ken Dryden
Bill Durnan
George Hainsworth
Turk Broda

The guys who played without a mask have my respect, Johnny Bower used to say that he wasn`t afraid of the puck, he was afraid of the sticks and skates around the crease as he was focused on stopping the puck. Near the end of his last season, Bill Durnan had his scalp carved by a skate which I believe became infected. He came back for the playoffs but was a bundle of nerves, ended up pulling himself and never played again. Believe that any goaltender at any level should know how Jacques Plante changed the game.

Yeah, there was an article somewhere that talked about teammates of Durnan realizing how nervous he was to play goalie near the end in the NHL. Sticks and skates. They said he could sleep. He would always say he's fine but by 1950, the players knew that was not the case. If he had a mask, he'd have probably played another 2-3 years of great hockey.

His only "poor season" was the season he was named captain and he would spend half the game at center ice talking to the referees. Goalies can no longer be NHL captains BECAUSE of Bill Durnan.

 

[Chili]

Players in NHL history who have scored more then one Cup clinching goal:

Mike Bossy 1982, 1983
Jacques Lemaire 1977, 1979
Bobby Orr 1970, 1972
Henri Richard 1966, 1971
Jean Béliveau 1960, 1965
Toe Blake 1944, 1946

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Yeah, there was an article somewhere that talked about teammates of Durnan realizing how nervous he was to play goalie near the end in the NHL. Sticks and skates. They said he could sleep. He would always say he's fine but by 1950, the players knew that was not the case. If he had a mask, he'd have probably played another 2-3 years of great hockey.

His only "poor season" was the season he was named captain and he would spend half the game at center ice talking to the referees. Goalies can no longer be NHL captains BECAUSE of Bill Durnan.

Luongo was captain…. Same issue.

 

[Natey]

Luongo was captain…. Same issue.

Not the same issue. Luongo was named team Captain but he didn't have many on ice discussions outside of his own end. IIRC, Willie Mitchell served as proxy captain and dealt with on ice issues. Luongo couldn't even wear the C on his jersey (had it on his helmet) because he's not allowed to be captain on the ice.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Are we talking Dryden or Price?

In the case of Price, Roy had the better career. It’s open and shut. But he had teams Price could only dream of. That’s the big separator between them. Price also wasn’t as healthy and that hurt his career.

In the case of Dryden? I don’t see how Roy is better. Dryden has the better clubs overall here but he did win early on with lesser teams. He was more consistent and has the most insane resume ever. Roy on the other hand, shat the bed a lot.

People only look at one side of the ledger with Roy. They see four cups, most playoff wins and forget the rest. And I get it. It’s a f***ing amazing career and he’s an all time great. But he’s not the best ever. Inconsistency is one issue, not having beaten superior teams is another.


Cool, show me how it’s wrong.

He had teams he could only dream of according to you without factoring in that Roy was the most important part of those teams. You do the same thing the media has been doing for years, over value the goaltending position while completely dogging the team. This narrative the Price drug teams to the playoffs all his lonesome is mostly bullshit. No player can do that, when the team stunk, Price stunk even worse. It's time we call a spade a spade here and put this made of narrative to rest. It isn't true and it's never been. There isn't a single player in NHL history that has this type of impact. Not Hasek, Gretzky, Lemieux and certainly not Price. You and and the worshippers invented it, it isn't true. With that out of the way, can we actually discuss accomplishments, or we just going to discuss made up narratives invented to demonize the team and inflate PRice's worth?

Dryden played on dynasties ffs, what are you even talking about here? I would have won cups on those teams. Don't tell me you think the 86/93 teams were better teams than those 70's teams. Dryden's career fails in comparison to Roy's, it's not even close tbh and Dryden's was only 7 years long. There is no debate or sound argument for Dryden over Roy, but lets stop with the smokescreens, no one is talking about Dryden except you.

Nope, you invented a narrative. Roy changed how the position was played, led the league in SV% for many years and was in mix in years he didn't. He just so happens to have 3 conn Smythe trophies and and 3 Vezina's to go along with it. At some point accomplishments matter and feelings don't.

There is no one who agrees with you. Maybe you should make a case for your argument. It's sounding pretty flat atm. This has been debated for months/years even on HF's own history of hockey section. No one credible has Roy outside the top 2 or 3. You're a PRice homer and always have been, that won't change the facts. His trophy case has slightly more in it than Jose Theodore. Yippee.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Not the same issue. Luongo was named team Captain but he didn't have many on ice discussions outside of his own end. IIRC, Willie Mitchell served as proxy captain and dealt with on ice issues. Luongo couldn't even wear the C on his jersey (had it on his helmet) because he's not allowed to be captain on the ice.

It was a mess. But some players don’t need the C to be the leader on the club. Price was the unofficial captain of our club for years.

 

[Doc McKenna]

When Roy was amazing in the playoffs, he was just that.........................but when he was off, he was just that too.
Ask Bruins fans.........he was awful for years in the playoffs vs the Bruins.
I can remember this well, Roy was lights out, twice for the habs in the playoffs, and my friends all reminded me he sucked, when he sucked against their Bruins......
It was hard to take, but it happened.
The other thing to take into account, the players in front of Roy, were just a little better, than the players in front of Price.........it's apples and oranges, but still, Price had almost zero support compared to other Montreal legends who played in nets.

Yeah but were the players in front of him better than Martyand NJ?

 

[FF de Mars]

I don't know if it's the right thread but I'd really like like the Habs to unretire all the numbers so the players can wear them. Isn't it weird number 9 for example has become synonym of hatred for me, I mean it used to be Richard's but then I've never seen him play and everytime I see number 9 I see it in a bad way because it's always an opposing player wearing it. Just keep the numbers retired on the roof along with their jerseys and banners? And let the numbers free on the ice!

 

[Frankenheimer]

I think it's just too soon to talk about Price.....in 15 years the perception will be different.

I kind of agree. Some emotion has to be removed from the equation. I also wanted Koivu’s number retired but with hindsight not exceptional enough. Price is close though.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

He had teams he could only dream of according to you without factoring in that Roy was the most important part of those teams.

I agree. Roy was the best player in those runs with us. He earned those Smythes.

But, he had a team to help get him there and he faced weak opposition in terms of cup runs. And he also shat the bed a lot.

You do the same thing the media has been doing for years, over value the goaltending position while completely dogging the team. This narrative the Price drug teams to the playoffs all his lonesome is mostly bullshit.

We have objective, verifiable proof that it’s true. Price led us to a first place finish in 2015. In 2016 we’re 12-2 until he gets hurt and the team completely falls apart.

That’s not luck. It’s not fluke. Our team was exposed for what it was, a poorly coached squad that misused its talent and overrelied on one player to make it competitive. Very few players are good enough to take a last place team to first but Price was good enough to do that.

No player can do that, when the team stunk, Price stunk even worse. It's time we call a spade a spade here and put this made of narrative to rest. It isn't true and it's never been. There isn't a single player in NHL history that has this type of impact. Not Hasek, Gretzky, Lemieux and certainly not Price.

They absolutely can drag teams to the playoffs. Absolutely can win playoff rounds that shouldn’t have been won. McDavid did it this year for example.

But NO player has been able to do it and win a cup. Hasek came the closest. Price being able to take this team to the finals though is mind boggling considering it’s mediocrity, Weber’s injuries and the opposition we faced.

You and and the worshippers invented it, it isn't true. With that out of the way, can we actually discuss accomplishments, or we just going to discuss made up narratives invented to demonize the team and inflate PRice's worth?

I didn’t invent our crash in the standings in 2016. That should’ve been enough to convince you. If it doesn’t, nothing will. And if you think we weren’t carried by him to the finals… I have no idea what to tell you. Look at that roster. And look at the usage too. Staal was our first line center in much of the playoffs…

We haven’t just had bad rosters over the years, it’s that we misused them so badly too.

Dryden played on dynasties ffs, what are you even talking about here? I would have won cups on those teams. Don't tell me you think the 86/93 teams were better teams than those 70's teams. Dryden's career fails in comparison to Roy's, it's not even close tbh and Dryden's was only 7 years long. There is no debate or sound argument for Dryden over Roy, but lets stop with the smokescreens, no one is talking about Dryden except you.

Google 1971. Check out what happened when he left for school and retired in 80.

Yes, he has insane teams for most of his career. But he wins one cup on a huge underdog and he never shat the bed to take us out of the playoffs the way Roy did numerous times.

Nope, you invented a narrative. Roy changed how the position was played, led the league in SV% for many years and was in mix in years he didn't. He just so happens to have 3 conn Smythe trophies and and 3 Vezina's to go along with it. At some point accomplishments matter and feelings don't.

I never denied his awesomeness. I simply gave context to it. If you’re going to argue he’s the best ever then look at his whole career vs that of others.

There is no one who agrees with you.

False. There are people in this very thread who agree.

And… it’s irrelevant anyway.

Maybe you should make a case for your argument. It's sounding pretty flat atm. This has been debated for months/years even on HF's own history of hockey section. No one credible has Roy outside the top 2 or 3.

Cool. I disagree and I’ve told you why. Unlike you, I actually DID make a case. I have seen zero from you to rebut what I’ve said.

You're a PRice homer and always have been, that won't change the facts. His trophy case has slightly more in it than Jose Theodore. Yippee.

I’m a Hab homer. My favourite players include Roy. It also includes Richer, Subban and a whole slew of others. And I’ll tell you what I think on them based on the facts. Same with Price.

Your post here consists of:

1. LG is a homer
2. But the “experts say”

That’s it… and you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about with Dryden.

Like I said, come back with some real arguments and I’ll listen.

 

[Frankenheimer]

I don't know if it's the right thread but I'd really like like the Habs to unretire all the numbers so the players can wear them. Isn't it weird number 9 for example has become synonym of hatred for me, I mean it used to be Richard's but then I've never seen him play and everytime I see number 9 I see it in a bad way because it's always an opposing player wearing it. Just keep the numbers retired on the roof along with their jerseys and banners? And let the numbers free on the ice!

Number 9 is a synonym of hatred? That’s weird man.

 

[BuildOnDiamonds]

He had teams he could only dream of according to you without factoring in that Roy was the most important part of those teams. You do the same thing the media has been doing for years, over value the goaltending position while completely dogging the team. This narrative the Price drug teams to the playoffs all his lonesome is mostly bullshit. No player can do that, when the team stunk, Price stunk even worse. It's time we call a spade a spade here and put this made of narrative to rest. It isn't true and it's never been. There isn't a single player in NHL history that has this type of impact. Not Hasek, Gretzky, Lemieux and certainly not Price. You and and the worshippers invented it, it isn't true. With that out of the way, can we actually discuss accomplishments, or we just going to discuss made up narratives invented to demonize the team and inflate PRice's worth?

Dryden played on dynasties ffs, what are you even talking about here? I would have won cups on those teams. Don't tell me you think the 86/93 teams were better teams than those 70's teams. Dryden's career fails in comparison to Roy's, it's not even close tbh and Dryden's was only 7 years long. There is no debate or sound argument for Dryden over Roy, but lets stop with the smokescreens, no one is talking about Dryden except you.

Nope, you invented a narrative. Roy changed how the position was played, led the league in SV% for many years and was in mix in years he didn't. He just so happens to have 3 conn Smythe trophies and and 3 Vezina's to go along with it. At some point accomplishments matter and feelings don't.

There is no one who agrees with you. Maybe you should make a case for your argument. It's sounding pretty flat atm. This has been debated for months/years even on HF's own history of hockey section. No one credible has Roy outside the top 2 or 3. You're a PRice homer and always have been, that won't change the facts. His trophy case has slightly more in it than Jose Theodore. Yippee.

Pretty refreshing to see a supporter of the Montreal Canadiens not blinded by their infatuation towards #31.

It's hard to compare goaltender from different generation, so we have to compare goaltender with the other keeper of their generation to see if they are clearly a step above the rest. Does his performance really justify ranking him definitely above goalkeepers such as Lundvist, Rinne, Vasilevsky or Quick? A legit top 5 goaltender throught out his career with some peaks where he might have been the best in the game? Surely, yes. Belonging to the same tier has goaltender who marked history by being generational at their position? If you do so, a lot of other goaltender of his generations deserves that same consideration.

The way Carey Price is generally described as some kind of demi-god in the hockey world, you have to wonder how fans would have viewed him if he had actually won a Stanley cup or even a Conn Smythe. You would probably find them on the main board debating that Price belongs in the Gretzky/Lemieux/Orr tier .

 

[BuildOnDiamonds]

Staal was our first line center in much of the playoffs…

He wasn't tho? Staal was actually the least used center in the playoff for Montreal..

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Suzuki and Danault definitely were the one taking the heavy load.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

I agree. Roy was the best player in those runs with us. He earned those Smythes.

But, he had a team to help get him there and he faced weak opposition in terms of cup runs. And he also shat the bed a lot.

We have objective, verifiable proof that it’s true. Price led us to a first place finish in 2015. In 2016 we’re 12-2 until he gets hurt and the team completely falls apart.

That’s not luck. It’s not fluke. Our team was exposed for what it was, a poorly coached squad that misused its talent and overrelied on one player to make it competitive. Very few players are good enough to take a last place team to first but Price was good enough to do that.

They absolutely can drag teams to the playoffs. Absolutely can win playoff rounds that shouldn’t have been won. McDavid did it this year for example.

But NO player has been able to do it and win a cup. Hasek came the closest. Price being able to take this team to the finals though is mind boggling considering it’s mediocrity, Weber’s injuries and the opposition we faced.

I didn’t invent our crash in the standings in 2016. That should’ve been enough to convince you. If it doesn’t, nothing will. And if you think we weren’t carried by him to the finals… I have no idea what to tell you. Look at that roster. And look at the usage too. Staal was our first line center in much of the playoffs…

We haven’t just had bad rosters over the years, it’s that we misused them so badly too.

Google 1971. Check out what happened when he left for school and retired in 80.

Yes, he has insane teams for most of his career. But he wins one cup on a huge underdog and he never shat the bed to take us out of the playoffs the way Roy did numerous times.

I never denied his awesomeness. I simply gave context to it. If you’re going to argue he’s the best ever then look at his whole career vs that of others.

False. There are people in this very thread who agree.

And… it’s irrelevant anyway.

Cool. I disagree and I’ve told you why. Unlike you, I actually DID make a case. I have seen zero from you to rebut what I’ve said.

I’m a Hab homer. My favourite players include Roy. It also includes Richer, Subban and a whole slew of others. And I’ll tell you what I think on them based on the facts. Same with Price.

Your post here consists of:

1. LG is a homer
2. But the “experts say”

That’s it… and you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about with Dryden.

Like I said, come back with some real arguments and I’ll listen.

LMAO. Same old LG. I’m not going this with you. I know where you stand on Price. He carried teams to the playoffs and now the finals all on his own. Even though against Vegas he stunk, but not quite as bad as he stunk against Tampa. He won the TO series, after that, he was meh.

 

[Natey]

Head to head seriously? Roy is considered the best or 2nd best by just about anyone who has looked at this extensively. You haven’t made a sound case for why months of research/debate is wrong. You’re stubborn, no doubt and I can appreciate that. I am too, but you’re take is just wrong on this.

Don't even try.

He makes up statements that he passes as fact to fit his narrative. And then when you prove one of those made up facts wrong, he'll pretend it was never said and make up something else. And then tell you to prove him wrong because you've yet to do it.

Then he'll talk about a goalie playing in a different era and when you counter that he'll say it's wrong to compare different eras.

He'll run you in circles until you just give up lol

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Pretty refreshing to see a supporter of the Montreal Canadiens not blinded by their infatuation towards #31.

It's hard to compare goaltender from different generation, so we have to compare goaltender with the other keeper of their generation to see if they are clearly a step above the rest. Does his performance really justify ranking him definitely above goalkeepers such as Lundvist, Rinne, Vasilevsky or Quick? A legit top 5 goaltender throught out his career with some peaks where he might have been the best in the game? Surely, yes. Belonging to the same tier has goaltender who marked history by being generational at their position? If you do so, a lot of other goaltender of his generations deserves that same consideration.

The way Carey Price is generally described as some kind of demi-god in the hockey world, you have to wonder how fans would have viewed him if he had actually won a Stanley cup or even a Conn Smythe. You would probably find them on the main board debating that Price belongs in the Gretzky/Lemieux/Orr tier .

I mean his argument that price carried is to the playoffs on his own is based on a 14 game sample in one season. Who can argue against that? The logic is sound haha.

Don't even try.

He makes up statements that he passes as fact to fit his narrative. And then when you prove one of those made up facts wrong, he'll pretend it was never said and make up something else. And then tell you to prove him wrong because you've yet to do it.

Then he'll talk about a goalie playing in a different era and when you counter that he'll say it's wrong to compare different eras.

He'll run you in circles until you just give up lol

I’ve done this before, I’m tapping out now. I know the truth and don’t care to have this conversation again.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

He wasn't tho? Staal was actually the least used center in the playoff for Montreal..

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Suzuki and Danault definitely were the one taking the heavy load.

I stand corrected. Thanks!

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

LMAO. Same old LG. I’m not going this with you. I know where you stand on Price. He carried teams to the playoffs and now the finals all on his own. Even though against Vegas he stunk, but not quite as bad as he stunk against Tampa. He won the TO series, after that, he was meh.

Cool for you to disagree.

But I didn't see an argument from you to back up what you're saying.

Have a nice day!

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

LMAO. Same old LG. I’m not going this with you. I know where you stand on Price. He carried teams to the playoffs and now the finals all on his own. Even though against Vegas he stunk, but not quite as bad as he stunk against Tampa. He won the TO series, after that, he was meh.

As much as I love Pricer I agree with you. He really saved our asses against Toronto. The team really stepped up and pissed on Winnipeg and Vegas tho. But that's not a knock on him at all. It is a team game and without him we just get swept round 1

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Don't even try.

He makes up statements that he passes as fact to fit his narrative. And then when you prove one of those made up facts wrong, he'll pretend it was never said and make up something else. And then tell you to prove him wrong because you've yet to do it.

Then he'll talk about a goalie playing in a different era and when you counter that he'll say it's wrong to compare different eras.

He'll run you in circles until you just give up lol

No, I'll ask you to support your arguments. If you don't, I'll call you on it.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

As much as I love Pricer I agree with you. He really saved our asses against Toronto. The team really stepped up and pissed on Winnipeg and Vegas tho. But that's not a knock on him at all. It is a team game and without him we just get swept round 1

He was a non factor against the jets. The series just wasn’t competitive. We were better start to finish. Against Vegas, he nearly cost is the series. The only thing that saved us there was Fleury was worse. Against tampa he didn’t give us a chance to win, he sucked.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Cool for you to disagree.

But I didn't see an argument from you to back up what you're saying.

Have a nice day!

That’s because all you is deflect, spin and shift goalposts.