Value of: PLD's trade value this summer with 1 RFA year left?

[HabsAddict]

If GMs know that Dubois won't sign long term, then his value is lower then if they think he's going to sign. That's so obvious that no need to even debate it.

The only question is, do the Habs think he's worth getting him this off season versus next one. So do they offer enough to match other teams.

A big part of that is what it will cost to sign him long term. 8x8 is reasonable, but he may want 10x8. Or more. Now the Habs have a delema. Put up big assets AND big money. Is he worth that?

This trade isn't just what Chevy wants, but also what Dubois wants long term. And what the Habs management sees as reasonable.

For all we know, Dubois is playing the Habs against the Jetss. He may stick to not signing until he's FA and demand 11-12 per when the cap goes up next year.

I really want to see him as a Hab, but not at whatever trade value or ridiculous signing.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

I never said there weren’t a bunch of rumours. I said his agent who is the quote that everyone leans on has said the same thing about other clients wanting to play for their home teams. His agent saying this doesn’t mean it’s going to happen. I have no doubt that Dubois has some desire to play for his home team. Lots of players do. It often doesn’t work out (timing, cap, state of the franchise, positional needs).

Dubois HAS been quoted as saying he wants to play for a competitive team that has a chance at winning the cup. If he gets to UFA the timing might not be right based on where the Habs are in their rebuild and their need for 1C. A lot of GM’s will kick tires on PLD as a UFA. That means a lot to consider for $$$, location, taxes, usage and other factors.

If the Habs are lucky enough to draft a C this summer who projects as a #1 that could complicate things for both sides.

A lot of things can change between now and summer 2024. We’ll see if either the team or the player are still pining for each other by then.

I don't know what to say but that if you think that Brisson's response was your average 'he'd think about it' response, there's not much I can do to help you. Not sure if you speak French but his response was very assertive and even if you can just rely on the translation, Brisson went out of his way to say it in a way that he couldn't suffer consequences for it because of how forward he was with his answer. He was trying to pressure the Jets into an outcome.

Like seriously, you think that every single reporter saying that this guy is dying to play in Montreal, him taking so long to sign and only to sign a one-year deal and his own agent coming out and saying 'Hey, I can say this because he doesn't have a contract, Dubois would love to play in Montreal' on top of what we were hearing when he asked out of Columbus is what, all of it a weird coincidence or a play? Come on, man. Dubois might not end up in Montreal (and at this point, I'm even doubtful of that. I'm fairly certain he is one way or another. Both parties for sure had discussions last summer.) but some folks just have their head in the sand at this point.

 

[TS Quint]

Than try trading him to another team. If all these other team are so interested in him than why is he still a Jet. If we trade for him it will be a lot lower than his market value.
If you can't accept that than too bad.

Looks like you dont read, this Literally what Jet fans have been saying the whole thread. Habs need to beat a TDL deal. I haven't seen anything like that. Most proposals are less than what ROR got for a couple months and Dubois is a far better player for a longer period of control.

 

[TS Quint]

Why would other teams over pay for a rental?
Your in denial and it's showing but keep reaching for them straws.

You tall about straw men literally after making one lol.

 

[Boonk]

Looks like you dont read, this Literally what Jet fans have been saying the whole thread. Habs need to beat a TDL deal. I haven't seen anything like that. Most proposals are less than what ROR got for a couple months and Dubois is a far better player for a longer period of control.

I’ve been saying, teams like Carolina, New Jersey and Detroit have far better assets, far more cap space to play with, and are suiting up for cup/playoff contention much further ahead than Montreal. If neither Carolina or New Jersey won’t pull the trigger on Meier/anyone else and PLD won’t re-sign, we can pitch him right to them and they’ll pay far more valuable assets than whatever the Habs can offer.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

I’ve been saying, teams like Carolina, New Jersey and Detroit have far better assets, far more cap space to play with, and are suiting up for cup/playoff contention much further ahead than Montreal. If neither Carolina or New Jersey won’t pull the trigger on Meier/anyone else and PLD won’t re-sign, we can pitch him right to them and they’ll pay far more valuable assets than whatever the Habs can offer.

But once again, you're left with the very likely possibility that these teams don't offer anything serious for PLD because PLD won't sign unless it's Montreal. I agree with the above poster, Montreal has to beat TDL-level offers if the Jets deal him, and that's about it.

Considering their current placement, I think the Jets should just hold unto him and walk him to UFA if Dubois will sign another one-year deal.

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

I’ve been saying, teams like Carolina, New Jersey and Detroit have far better assets, far more cap space to play with, and are suiting up for cup/playoff contention much further ahead than Montreal. If neither Carolina or New Jersey won’t pull the trigger on Meier/anyone else and PLD won’t re-sign, we can pitch him right to them and they’ll pay far more valuable assets than whatever the Habs can offer.

The Habs have better assets to offer than any of those teams can. But they wouldn't offer them and it wouldn't include a player that can immediately fill Dubois' shoes. HuGo will know how determined he is to be a Hab and whether they need to make an offer in the off season or just wait until he is an FA.

 

[Boonk]

The Habs have better assets to offer than any of those teams can. But they wouldn't offer them and it wouldn't include a player that can immediately fill Dubois' shoes. HuGo will know how determined he is to be a Hab and whether they need to make an offer in the off season or just wait until he is an FA.

They don’t if they’re not willing to part with them, which according to Habs armchair GMs in here, they’re not going to apparently. Tough luck when you don’t have a decent offer on the market

But once again, you're left with the very likely possibility that these teams don't offer anything serious for PLD because PLD won't sign unless it's Montreal. I agree with the above poster, Montreal has to beat TDL-level offers if the Jets deal him, and that's about it.

Considering their current placement, I think the Jets should just hold unto him and walk him to UFA if Dubois will sign another one-year deal.

There is literally no guarantee Dubois signs in Montreal either going by that logic, even if his agent said he wants to (his agent has done this for many of his clients and literally none of them ended up in Montreal). I very much doubt Dubois will sign for a basement dweller Habs team at a discount rate like so many Habs fans parrot about, when he could go to contenders in Carolina or New Jersey who can pay just as much, if not more, and are legitimate Cup contenders going into the future. He may dream about Montreal, but I guarantee you he dreams about winning far more. They’re not going to be doing that in Montreal anytime soon even if they land a Bedard, Fantilli or Carlsson.

 

[Snowman]

But once again, you're left with the very likely possibility that these teams don't offer anything serious for PLD because PLD won't sign unless it's Montreal. I agree with the above poster, Montreal has to beat TDL-level offers if the Jets deal him, and that's about it.

Considering their current placement, I think the Jets should just hold unto him and walk him to UFA if Dubois will sign another one-year deal.

But once again you've left out the very likely possibility that those teams will offer very serious assets for PLD as there is pretty much zero chance that he will limit himself to signing with Montreal only. No actual information that we have now show this is even a slight possibility.

At the minimum, Montreal will have to beat a standard TDL rental offer, which none of the offers in ths thread have done so far.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

They don’t if they’re not willing to part with them, which according to Habs armchair GMs in here, they’re not going to apparently. Tough luck when you don’t have a decent offer on the market

There is literally no guarantee Dubois signs in Montreal either going by that logic, even if his agent said he wants to (his agent has done this for many of his clients and literally none of them ended up in Montreal). I very much doubt Dubois will sign for a basement dweller Habs team at a discount rate like so many Habs fans parrot about, when he could go to contenders in Carolina or New Jersey who can pay just as much, if not more, and are legitimate Cup contenders going into the future.

I guess you can keep your head in the sand. Brisson obviously tried to force a move last summer. And even if it were only that, then maaaaaaybe what you are saying would be making sense if it wasn't for the other mountain of evidence that has Dubois wanting to be in Montreal, including Murat Ates reporting that the guy's going around telling anyone who'll listen that he wants to be in Montreal. Even Friedman reported a couple days back that Dubois wants Montreal and Kypreos said that even a Cup win wouldn't change Dubois' mind.

The truth probably is that while the Habs are his childhood team and bla bla bla, the biggest reason why Dubois wants to be in Montreal are probably very personal (i.e., wants to raise a kid there, live in the city)

But once again you've left out the very likely possibility that those teams will offer very serious assets for PLD as there is pretty much zero chance that he will limit himself to signing with Montreal only. No actual information that we have now show this is even a slight possibility.

At the minimum, Montreal will have to beat a standard TDL rental offer, which none of the offers in ths thread have done so far.

He won't limit himself to Montreal as a RFA. But every indication is that the only team he'll sign long-term with is Montreal. That has an impact in what teams will give up.

 

[Guffman]

Why would other teams over pay for a rental?
Your in denial and it's showing but keep reaching for them straws.

Why would teams overpay for a rental? Because he’s a strong 1C that could help a team win the Stanley Cup (and perhaps they think they could extend him).

What contending team wouldn’t want Dubois added to their team to significantly increase their team strength?

When you say Montreal would only be willing to pay below the market rates… yeah, we heard you and we’ve been telling your fan base to then pipe down and sit off on the sidelines as non-players to this.

 

[Snowman]

He won't limit himself to Montreal as a RFA. But every indication is that the only team he'll sign long-term with is Montreal. That has an impact in what teams will give up.

Once again you're ignoring reality. There isn't now and never has been any indication that he will only sign long term in Montreal. That's wishful thinking on Montreal fan's part. In fact reality and probability say there is a far better chance that he is willing to sign in multiple places outside of Montreal, just like every other player.

There is no less chance that PLD is willing to sign long term with multiple teams than there is of him being only willing to sign in Montreal.

The burden of proof is on Montreal fans to provide some factual evidence or historical precedent to support their position and none has been provided yet.

 

[JustAHabFan]

Why would teams overpay for a rental? Because he’s a strong 1C that could help a team win the Stanley Cup (and perhaps they think they could extend him).

What contending team wouldn’t want Dubois added to their team to significantly increase their team strength?

When you say Montreal would only be willing to pay below the market rates… yeah, we heard you and we’ve been telling your fan base to then pipe down and sit off on the sidelines as non-players to this.

According to you what should be the market rate for Dubois?

 

[Spring in Fialta]

Once again you're ignoring reality. There isn't now and never has been any indication that he will only sign long term in Montreal. That's wishful thinking on Montreal fan's part. In fact reality and probability say there is a far better chance that he is willing to sign in multiple places outside of Montreal, just like every other player.

There is no less chance that PLD is willing to sign long term with multiple teams than there is of him being only willing to sign in Montreal.

The burden of proof is on Montreal fans to provide some factual evidence or historical precedent to support their position and none has been provided yet.

Oh really? Am I?

For several months, it has been an open secret in Winnipeg: Pierre-Luc Dubois would like to play in Montreal.

Multiple sources confirmed to The Athletic that wearing the Canadiens’ bleu, blanc et rouge is a dream that Dubois is not shy to talk about in private company.

Now Dubois’ agent, Pat Brisson, is making those desires as public as possible. Brisson has stirred the Dubois-to-Montreal pot in multiple media appearances this week in a clear attempt to catalyze trade talks between the Jets and Canadiens.
A source with knowledge of the situation confirmed to The Athletic that Dubois attended the NHL Draft in Montreal because he believed a trade would be completed on the draft floor. As first reported by Radio-Canada’s Martin Leclerc, Montreal offered three players to the Jets in hopes of securing Dubois’ rights. You’ll recall that Montreal selected Slovak right winger Juraj Slafkovsky with the No. 1 pick and then acquired Kirby Dach from Chicago.

But Dach is not Montreal’s endgame. The Canadiens have continued their pursuit of Dubois since the draft.

It is believed that Winnipeg is holding up the deal in an effort to secure a player Montreal has no interest in moving.

This could be why Brisson is trying to increase the pressure.

For Dubois, it’s as simple as wanting to play in Montreal.

Whereas teams in New York, Calgary or any other city will only be willing to pay for two years’ worth of Dubois’ services, Montreal has more confidence it can sign him long-term.

If Brisson can make Dubois’ desires so public that other teams become less interested in him, then Montreal’s offer — as inadequate as it may seem now — may end up standing above the competition. Winnipeg owes itself the best trade return possible so it is in Dubois’ best interest to create circumstances where the Canadiens’ offer is the best one out there.

There is also the matter of Dubois asking to be traded just two years after the last time he asked to be moved. There are teams that will be turned off by his requests, writing him off as a player who is simply trying to force his way to Montreal.

That's from Winnipeg's very own Ates, by the way. Every other reporter is saying that the dude wants to play in Montreal. Again, you can keep your head in the sand, but it doesn't change what every person with a minimal ability for perception can see which way the wind's blowing. The dude refused to sign until late last summer and only did so on a one-year deal because why? Because he's willing to go to a million different places?

 

[Baksfamous112]

I’ve been saying, teams like Carolina, New Jersey and Detroit have far better assets, far more cap space to play with, and are suiting up for cup/playoff contention much further ahead than Montreal. If neither Carolina or New Jersey won’t pull the trigger on Meier/anyone else and PLD won’t re-sign, we can pitch him right to them and they’ll pay far more valuable assets than whatever the Habs can offer.

What kind of deal do you think you could get from Carolina & Detroit (I think NJ wouldn’t be that interested). Specific players/package would be nice

 

[Snowman]

Oh really?

For several months, it has been an open secret in Winnipeg: Pierre-Luc Dubois would like to play in Montreal.

Multiple sources confirmed to The Athletic that wearing the Canadiens’ bleu, blanc et rouge is a dream that Dubois is not shy to talk about in private company.

Now Dubois’ agent, Pat Brisson, is making those desires as public as possible. Brisson has stirred the Dubois-to-Montreal pot in multiple media appearances this week in a clear attempt to catalyze trade talks between the Jets and Canadiens.
A source with knowledge of the situation confirmed to The Athletic that Dubois attended the NHL Draft in Montreal because he believed a trade would be completed on the draft floor. As first reported by Radio-Canada’s Martin Leclerc, Montreal offered three players to the Jets in hopes of securing Dubois’ rights. You’ll recall that Montreal selected Slovak right winger Juraj Slafkovsky with the No. 1 pick and then acquired Kirby Dach from Chicago.

But Dach is not Montreal’s endgame. The Canadiens have continued their pursuit of Dubois since the draft.

It is believed that Winnipeg is holding up the deal in an effort to secure a player Montreal has no interest in moving.

This could be why Brisson is trying to increase the pressure.

For Dubois, it’s as simple as wanting to play in Montreal.

Whereas teams in New York, Calgary or any other city will only be willing to pay for two years’ worth of Dubois’ services, Montreal has more confidence it can sign him long-term.

If Brisson can make Dubois’ desires so public that other teams become less interested in him, then Montreal’s offer — as inadequate as it may seem now — may end up standing above the competition. Winnipeg owes itself the best trade return possible so it is in Dubois’ best interest to create circumstances where the Canadiens’ offer is the best one out there.

There is also the matter of Dubois asking to be traded just two years after the last time he asked to be moved. There are teams that will be turned off by his requests, writing him off as a player who is simply trying to force his way to Montreal.

That's from Winnipeg's very own Ates, by the way. Every other reporter is saying that the dude wants to play in Montreal. Again, you can keep your head in the sand, but it doesn't change what every person with a minimal ability for perception can see which way the wind's blowing.

So the same months old rumour. I'm asking for proof.

Where and when has PLD come out and said something that backs your position.

Your position is PLD Has said he will ONLY consider signing long term in Montreal. Where is that quote from PLD?

Your position is that if Winnipeg trades PLD anywhere other than Montreal, he will ONLY play there one year and then head to Montreal to sign long term at whatever Montreal is willing to pay him. Where is this quote from PLD?

You may prefer as a Montreal fan to bury your head in sand with your fingers in your ears going 'la la la I can't hear you'. But the rest of us prefer to deal with reality and things that have actually been said or done or have a better than average chance of happening.

Provide some evidence to support your positions or say you've laid out your fantasy and move on and let everyone else discuss reality. Rumours aren't proof.

 

[Spring in Fialta]

So the same months old rumour. I'm asking for proof.

Where and when has PLD come out and said something that backs your position.

Your position is PLD Has said he will ONLY consider signing long term in Montreal. Where is that quote from PLD?

Your position is that if Winnipeg trades PLD anywhere other than Montreal, he will ONLY play there one year and then head to Montreal to sign long term at whatever Montreal is willing to pay him. Where is this quote from PLD?

You may prefer as a Montreal fan to bury your head in sand with your fingers in your ears going 'la la la I can't hear you'. But the rest of us prefer to deal with reality and things that have actually been said or done or have a better than average chance of happening.

Provide some evidence to support your positions or say you've laid out your fantasy and move on and let everyone else discuss reality. Rumours aren't proof.

This is hilarious. So short of Pierre-Luc Dubois, currently employed by the Winnipeg Jets, going in front of a camera and saying: 'I only want to play for the Montreal Canadiens', everything else is just a rumor whose credibility can be dismissed?

I mean, really?

 

[FerrisRox]

I never said there weren’t a bunch of rumours. I said his agent who is the quote that everyone leans on has said the same thing about other clients wanting to play for their home teams.

What other clients has Pat Brisson public stated that they wanted to play for a specific team?

Why would other teams over pay for a rental?

Uh... to win?

Teams overpay for rentals literally every single year. Is this your first season following the sport?

 

[Snowman]

This is hilarious. So short of Pierre-Luc Dubois, currently employed by the Winnipeg Jets, going in front of a camera and saying: 'I only want to play for the Montreal Canadiens', everything else is just a rumor whose credibility can be dismissed?

I mean, really?

You suppositions are the only thing that are hilarious. PLD's agent says "sure he wouldn't mind playing for Montreal someday" somehow on Montreal fans heads morphs into. "PLD will only sign long term in Montreal and will refuse to play anywhere else." Can you see how silly and illogical that jump is?

I mean really?

 

[Boonk]

What kind of deal do you think you could get from Carolina & Detroit (I think NJ wouldn’t be that interested). Specific players/package would be nice

Me personally, I would ask for:

Detroit:
23 1st
Rasmussen
+ Prospect (Wallinder, Mazur, Niederbach, Buchelnikov, Buium, Johansson)

Carolina:
23 1st
Kotkaniemi
+ Prospect (Cruz Lucius, Nybeck, Blake, Morrow, Rees, Suzuki, Drury)

Pick and choose or switch around. Carolina in particular has a lot of enticing assets and prospects they can use. Rasmussen or Kotkaniemi gives us a young, replacement NHL forward/center. You're right in that New Jersey would probably not be THAT interested, but they can also put out an enticing package and have a 1-2-3 punch of Hischier, Hughes, and PLD that would instantly become the best center core in the league and would put them right there as a prime Cup contender for well over a decade.

New Jersey:
23 1st
Sharangovich
+ Prospect (Holtz, Foote, Clarke, Stillman, Casey, Okhotyuk)

 

[Spring in Fialta]

You suppositions are the only thing that are hilarious. PLD's agent says "sure he wouldn't mind playing for Montreal someday" somehow on Montreal fans heads morphs into. "PLD will only sign long term in Montreal and will refuse to play anywhere else." Can you see how silly and illogical that jump is?

I mean really?

Great, so you haven't read anything. I was wondering.

And that's totally not how Brisson said it. But you keep wishing that's what happened.

 

[Zhamnov5GoalGame]

I don't know what to say but that if you think that Brisson's response was your average 'he'd think about it' response, there's not much I can do to help you. Not sure if you speak French but his response was very assertive and even if you can just rely on the translation, Brisson went out of his way to say it in a way that he couldn't suffer consequences for it because of how forward he was with his answer. He was trying to pressure the Jets into an outcome.

Like seriously, you think that every single reporter saying that this guy is dying to play in Montreal, him taking so long to sign and only to sign a one-year deal and his own agent coming out and saying 'Hey, I can say this because he doesn't have a contract, Dubois would love to play in Montreal' on top of what we were hearing when he asked out of Columbus is what, all of it a weird coincidence or a play? Come on, man. Dubois might not end up in Montreal (and at this point, I'm even doubtful of that. I'm fairly certain he is one way or another. Both parties for sure had discussions last summer.) but some folks just have their head in the sand at this point.

You're making a bunch of assumptions.
I didn't say that he wouldn't like to play in Montreal.
Lots of players want to play on lots of teams.
Most of them never get to play for the team at the top of their list.
There are so many factors in play.

I think PLD and his agent are gunning for the biggest contract in a desirable location as possible.
All things being equal PLD may prefer MTL over the other teams.
His agent may have said that to encourage the Habs to be among the best offers.

His agent has said the same thing about other clients who didn't end up with their home town teams.
His agents comments are just comments, they are not set in stone commandments for an outcome.
The Habs may decide to not even trade for or sign Dubois depending on the costs and AAV it would take.
The team may end up with a C in this coming draft that they don't want to block with this type of acquisition.

2 facts

PLD has arbitration rights this summer and a great case for a big raise on a 1 year deal

PLD wants to get to UFA and play for a winning team.

If the Jets keep their core forwards together next year that is a great chance for Dubois to repeat or improve on his season this year. Further boosting his value at UFA. So his strategy may be to try to get the 1-year deal in Winnipeg to help maximize his next contract in 2024.

IF MTL can offer Chevy enough of what he wants then they may be able to grab PLD this summer and sign him to a more affordable deal. Or they may have to get in line like everyone else and pay top dollar in the summer of 2024 in July.

PLD's value is similar to just about any UFA for playoff teams.
If Dubois was UFA this summer and on the trade block this deadline he would have been the biggest target.
Colorado and several other teams would have tripped over themselves to grab him as a rental.
The Jets will trade him to which ever team offers the best deal.
It wouldn't be hard for teams to beat the offers most regularly posted here.
What PLD does after that doesn't really matter to the Jets.
Good luck to him.

 

[Snowman]

Great, so you haven't read anything. I was wondering.

And that's totally not how Brisson said it. But you keep wishing that's what happened.

That's what I'm saying, you have nothing.

You are making ridiculous assumptions, we're asking for any credible proof to support your fantasy.

If it is as well known as you say it is that this is PLD's intention, you'd think you could find something credible to back it, but you try to brush it off as if its nothing.

All you have is that rumour. So, let's try and use that.

Where in your rumour does it say that PLD has indicated that he will ONLY sign long term in Montreal?

Where in your rumor does it say that PLD has indicated that if he it's traded anywhere else, other than Montreal, that he will ONLY play there one year before bolting to Montreal to sign a long termextension for whatever they den acceptable?

With your prior reply you're saying you have nothing, but your fantasy, but I'm getting to give you a chance to provide anything credible to support your position. But yes, when you are making such a monumentally ridiculous assumption, you should back it with PLD actually saying something that at least hints at the scenario.

I've supported mine with reality and historical precedent.

I don't imagine you have anything.

This is hilarious. So short of Pierre-Luc Dubois, currently employed by the Winnipeg Jets, going in front of a camera and saying: 'I only want to play for the Montreal Canadiens', everything else is just a rumor whose credibility can be dismissed?

I mean, really?

you are the one making the ridiculous assumption, so yes something from the player should be the burden of proof.

You want to laugh it off, because you know your are making an uneducated assumption.

 

[LVCarson]

But once again, you're left with the very likely possibility that these teams don't offer anything serious for PLD because PLD won't sign unless it's Montreal. I agree with the above poster, Montreal has to beat TDL-level offers if the Jets deal him, and that's about it.

Considering their current placement, I think the Jets should just hold unto him and walk him to UFA if Dubois will sign another one-year deal.

Who said he would only sign with Montreal? The guy at the corner store told you? I will wait for the link.

 

[Crede777]

So the same months old rumour. I'm asking for proof.

Where and when has PLD come out and said something that backs your position.

Your position is PLD Has said he will ONLY consider signing long term in Montreal. Where is that quote from PLD?

Your position is that if Winnipeg trades PLD anywhere other than Montreal, he will ONLY play there one year and then head to Montreal to sign long term at whatever Montreal is willing to pay him. Where is this quote from PLD?

You may prefer as a Montreal fan to bury your head in sand with your fingers in your ears going 'la la la I can't hear you'. But the rest of us prefer to deal with reality and things that have actually been said or done or have a better than average chance of happening.

Provide some evidence to support your positions or say you've laid out your fantasy and move on and let everyone else discuss reality. Rumours aren't proof.

I can't provide evidence that PLD will only sign long term in Montreal nor do I necessarily believe that's the case.

But it's a fact that Montreal spoke with PLD in the summer of 2020 when PLD was an RFA to negotiate an offersheet. And it's very likely Montreal spoke with him again last July between July 1 and July 22nd when PLD agreed to the 1-year deal with Winnipeg.

While that information may be outdated since it's going to be 3 years old and then 1 year old this next July, we can't rule out PLD and Montreal having spoken and reached some sort of future agreement at that time. Montreal likely has more information than we have from public sources. Keep in mind, Montreal also tried to poach Aho from Carolina during this timeframe and apparently went about it in a way that upset Carolina.