Speculation: Player Discussion: Will Smith

[karltonian]

Copying this from the other thread, since I did the work:

The top 10 skaters Eklund played with during his 1st two NHL seasons, in order:

Tomas Hertl	C
Erik Karlsson	D
James Reimer	G
Logan Couture	C
Kaapo Kahkonen	G
Mario Ferraro	D
Adin Hill	G
Fabian Zetterlund	L
Rudolfs Balcers	L
Alexander Barabanov	L
Brent Burns	D
Marc-Edouard Vlasic	D
Kevin Labanc	R

This is what Smith has been dealing with, which oddly I didn't realize he played so much with Zetterlund. But this is absolutely abysmal:

Vitek Vanecek	G
Fabian Zetterlund	L
Luke Kunin	C
Barclay Goodrow	C
Mackenzie Blackwood	G
Henry Thrun	D
Cody Ceci	D
Jake Walman	D
Mario Ferraro	D
Jan Rutta	D
Matthew Benning	D
Klim Kostin	C

Bonus work!

Hertl's first season:

Antti Niemi	G
Joe Thornton	C
Brent Burns	D
Jason Demers	D
Dan Boyle	D
Scott Hannan	D
Marc-Edouard Vlasic	D
Brad Stuart	D
Justin Braun	D
Tommy Wingels	C
Matt Irwin	D

Couture's first season:

Evgeni Nabokov	G
Dan Boyle	D
Kent Huskins	D
Douglas Murray	D
Manny Malhotra	C
Marc-Edouard Vlasic	D
Dany Heatley	L
Torrey Mitchell	C
Rob Blake	D
Ryane Clowe	L
Niclas Wallin	D

Timo's first season:

Martin Jones	G
Chris Tierney	C
Brenden Dillon	D
Justin Braun	D
Brent Burns	D
Paul Martin	D
David Schlemko	D
Joel Ward	R
Marc-Edouard Vlasic	D
Joonas Donskoi	R
Aaron Dell	G
Joe Pavelski	C

So the idea that other Sharks top prospects had to deal with this is not true at all. We are not imagining Will's situation being terrible. Almost makes you wonder if a point is being made? I cannot think of any reason they would do this to their top prospect currently playing, assuming competence.

 

[Jargon]

Copying this from the other thread, since I did the work:

The top 10 skaters Eklund played with during his 1st two NHL seasons, in order:

Tomas Hertl	C
Erik Karlsson	D
James Reimer	G
Logan Couture	C
Kaapo Kahkonen	G
Mario Ferraro	D
Adin Hill	G
Fabian Zetterlund	L
Rudolfs Balcers	L
Alexander Barabanov	L
Brent Burns	D
Marc-Edouard Vlasic	D
Kevin Labanc	R

This is what Smith has been dealing with, which oddly I didn't realize he played so much with Zetterlund. But this is absolutely abysmal:

Vitek Vanecek	G
Fabian Zetterlund	L
Luke Kunin	C
Barclay Goodrow	C
Mackenzie Blackwood	G
Henry Thrun	D
Cody Ceci	D
Jake Walman	D
Mario Ferraro	D
Jan Rutta	D
Matthew Benning	D
Klim Kostin	C

Bonus work!

Hertl's first season:

Antti Niemi	G
Joe Thornton	C
Brent Burns	D
Jason Demers	D
Dan Boyle	D
Scott Hannan	D
Marc-Edouard Vlasic	D
Brad Stuart	D
Justin Braun	D
Tommy Wingels	C
Matt Irwin	D

Couture's first season:

Evgeni Nabokov	G
Dan Boyle	D
Kent Huskins	D
Douglas Murray	D
Manny Malhotra	C
Marc-Edouard Vlasic	D
Dany Heatley	L
Torrey Mitchell	C
Rob Blake	D
Ryane Clowe	L
Niclas Wallin	D

Timo's first season:

Martin Jones	G
Chris Tierney	C
Brenden Dillon	D
Justin Braun	D
Brent Burns	D
Paul Martin	D
David Schlemko	D
Joel Ward	R
Marc-Edouard Vlasic	D
Joonas Donskoi	R
Aaron Dell	G
Joe Pavelski	C

So the idea that other Sharks top prospects had to deal with this is not true at all. We are not imagining Will's situation being terrible. Almost makes you wonder if a point is being made?

Timo’s ain’t great but yeah, obviously those teams were a million times better.

 

[karltonian]

Timo’s ain’t great but yeah, obviously those teams were a million times better.

The forwards were lower line for that team, but every one is better than Smith's current two linemates, and the D is miles ahead.

EDIT: We were actually spoiled with talent on those teams ... Tierney and Donskoi along with Timo made up the 2nd line! That they seemed lesser talents is only because we had a top line of Marleau-Thornton-Pavelski.

 

[BaileyMacTavish]

I just feel like at some point, putting up donuts is kinda not okay and is a good sign maybe he's not NHL ready. But I know that sending him down isn't in the cards and was all foe it at first since all he needs tk do is get used to the NHL game speed. But man, I am just praying the other picks in 2023 pan out at this rate

 

[karltonian]

I just feel like at some point, putting up donuts is kinda not okay and is a good sign maybe he's not NHL ready. But I know that sending him down isn't in the cards and was all foe it at first since all he needs tk do is get used to the NHL game speed. But man, I am just praying the other picks in 2023 pan out at this rate

Please don't miss my post a few above, it really helped me crystallize my take. Smith is being absolutely destroyed and he's literally our best prospect to play in 26 years. I don't care what they think the plan is for him, this ain't it. This is malfeasance.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Copying this from the other thread, since I did the work:

The top 10 skaters Eklund played with during his 1st two NHL seasons, in order:

Tomas Hertl	C
Erik Karlsson	D
James Reimer	G
Logan Couture	C
Kaapo Kahkonen	G
Mario Ferraro	D
Adin Hill	G
Fabian Zetterlund	L
Rudolfs Balcers	L
Alexander Barabanov	L
Brent Burns	D
Marc-Edouard Vlasic	D
Kevin Labanc	R

This is what Smith has been dealing with, which oddly I didn't realize he played so much with Zetterlund. But this is absolutely abysmal:

Vitek Vanecek	G
Fabian Zetterlund	L
Luke Kunin	C
Barclay Goodrow	C
Mackenzie Blackwood	G
Henry Thrun	D
Cody Ceci	D
Jake Walman	D
Mario Ferraro	D
Jan Rutta	D
Matthew Benning	D
Klim Kostin	C

Bonus work!

Hertl's first season:

Antti Niemi	G
Joe Thornton	C
Brent Burns	D
Jason Demers	D
Dan Boyle	D
Scott Hannan	D
Marc-Edouard Vlasic	D
Brad Stuart	D
Justin Braun	D
Tommy Wingels	C
Matt Irwin	D

Couture's first season:

Evgeni Nabokov	G
Dan Boyle	D
Kent Huskins	D
Douglas Murray	D
Manny Malhotra	C
Marc-Edouard Vlasic	D
Dany Heatley	L
Torrey Mitchell	C
Rob Blake	D
Ryane Clowe	L
Niclas Wallin	D

Timo's first season:

Martin Jones	G
Chris Tierney	C
Brenden Dillon	D
Justin Braun	D
Brent Burns	D
Paul Martin	D
David Schlemko	D
Joel Ward	R
Marc-Edouard Vlasic	D
Joonas Donskoi	R
Aaron Dell	G
Joe Pavelski	C

So the idea that other Sharks top prospects had to deal with this is not true at all. We are not imagining Will's situation being terrible. Almost makes you wonder if a point is being made? I cannot think of any reason they would do this to their top prospect currently playing, assuming competence.

I think you have the cause and effect backwards.

Take Meier. He had poor linemates because he struggled! He didn't earn promotion to better linemates. You wouldn't have looked at his sophomoric game and blamed the coach for not giving him better linemates.

In contrast, over a full season Hertl and Couture has better linemates because they played very well and displaced those ahead of them. Neither player played where they didn't belong.

You should repeat the analysis just looking at the first 10 games for each player.

 

[karltonian]

I think you have the cause and effect backwards.

Take Meier. He had poor linemates because he struggled!

Revisionist history.

Looking at the first 10 games for Timo, for the first 8 he played with the same guys, Tierney and Donskoi, which was deployed as the 2nd line. He then got a look on the top line with Jumbo and Pavelski from the 9th to 12th game before going back to Tierney's line where he stayed for the rest of the season (lots of line blending esp late season and all bets were off after Thornton got hurt).

 

[Jargon]

Please don't miss my post a few above, it really helped me crystallize my take. Smith is being absolutely destroyed and he's literally our best prospect to play in 26 years. I don't care what they think the plan is for him, this ain't it. This is malfeasance.

I’m not sure he’s being *destroyed*. The advanced stats show he’s doing, like, fine, aren’t they? He just hasn’t managed to show what he can really do yet and, again, hopefully when Celebrini comes back and he gets Granlund on his line, they can get a little chemistry going. I did think this last game he had several really nice passes.

 

[one2gamble]

He needs minutes with good players. Warz is trying to win games so he's not going to do that. Smith is going to have to force the issue if that's going to change

 

[OrrNumber4]

Revisionist history.

Looking at the first 10 games for Timo, for the first 8 he played with the same guys, Tierney and Donskoi, which was deployed as the 2nd line. He then got a look on the top line with Jumbo and Pavelski from the 9th to 12th game before going back to Tierney's line where he stayed for the rest of the season (lots of line blending esp late season and all bets were off after Thornton got hurt).

Seems like this is the revisionist history. Tierney and Donskoi were fourth-liners on that team, no?

This narrative that Kunin and Goodrow are dragging Smith down isn't fair; Smith is dragging himself down. He's still adjusting to the NHL speed and space.

 

[BaileyMacTavish]

Seems like this is the revisionist history. Tierney and Donskoi were fourth-liners on that team, no?

This narrative that Kunin and Goodrow are dragging Smith down isn't fair; Smith is dragging himself down. He's still adjusting to the NHL speed and space.

Hope he learns quick then. This is bumming me the hell out

 

[weastern bias]

Seems like this is the revisionist history. Tierney and Donskoi were fourth-liners on that team, no?

This narrative that Kunin and Goodrow are dragging Smith down isn't fair; Smith is dragging himself down. He's still adjusting to the NHL speed and space.

Yeah, Tierney never once played above a 3rd line role here and was usually the 4C, Donskoi played up and down the lineup anywhere from Jumbo's wing to the 4th line

Smith isn't being dragged down by his linemates, he's the worst player on that line by far, though he also isn't getting the benefit a lot of our past rookies had of playing with a player as good as Thornton or Marleau

He isn't an NHL player right now and his performance shows it, and that's not a problem because he's a kid, but keeping him on the big club might be a mistake

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Yeah, Tierney never once played above a 3rd line role here and was usually the 4C, Donskoi played up and down the lineup anywhere from Jumbo's wing to the 4th line

Smith isn't being dragged down by his linemates, he's the worst player on that line by far, though he also isn't getting the benefit a lot of our past rookies had of playing with a player as good as Thornton or Marleau

He isn't an NHL player right now and his performance shows it, and that's not a problem because he's a kid, but keeping him on the big club might be a mistake

It may be as it relates to Smith but it may not be. Some players do well developing by taking their lumps but it takes time to see that bear fruit. If everyone involved is alright with that happening, I'm okay with it because we're rebuilding and developing and this is part of that process. I just see some benefit for him to be in the AHL for some parts in this especially while the Barracuda are having some early success. Letting Smith take part in that for a while may help him adjust to the pro game.