PK Subban has retired - does he make the hall of fame, and where does he rank all-time?

[bobholly39]

PK Subban just announced his retirement.

One of the most entertaining players of his generation in my opinion, both on and off the ice. As a Habs fan - he was extremely likeable at the very least, and one of my favorites ever.

He had a great start to his career - but obviously ended up declining sooner than expected, and is now retiring pretty early at age 33. Some of the highlights of his resume:

1 Norris, and 2 other finalist nods
2x First Team all star, and one time second team all star
Great playoff performer & resume (no cups, but he had the one final in Nashville where he was one of the smythe favorites)
Olympic Gold medal - though obviously he barely played in that tournament

Does he have a chance at the hall of fame?
And how high does he rank all-time? Would he crack our top 200 player list we did a few years ago? Or if it's easier, strictly amongst defensemen - how does he measure up to the top 60 defensemen list that was done back in 2012?

Click to read more...

 

[Filthy Dangles]

No, not particularly close to a HoF career.

 

[Bond]

Nope

 

[Guttersniped]

No, I think he might have had an outside shot if he went Cup hunting and actually got on a Campionship team but by retiring he made this debate pretty easy.

Not sure that would have worked. If he hung on longer there’s just too many stronger candidates coming at the same time, defensemen have a harder time getting in the Hall than forwards. (Not as hard as goalies, but that a separate subject.)

Subban was drafted in 2007 (w/ McDonagh), he’s competing directly with the extraordinary 2008 defensive draft class plus Hedman in 2009.

It’s a ridiculously rich period for defensemen.

Subban mentioned in the Athletic article about his retirement that he thought he deserved a Norris more for his 2014-15 season.

PK had a fantastic year but it was a ridiculously competitive race. If you look throughout the voting you see the whole 2008 class arrived at that point to duke it out with the then 30 year old 2003 class. (And Chara had just dropped out, after a decade of annual Norris votes and coming in 2nd in 2013-14).

There have been lighter periods. Gonchar’s bid still lingers because of a lack of competition from the defensemen drafted around the same time frame.

This current period will lead to the opposite, similar to when 2004 had Bourque & Coffey and 2007 had Stevens & MacInnis. (Not arguing about legendary status, just having two 1st ballot defensemen in one class.)

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

HOF? Sure if he buys a ticket

Top 200 players? Nope

I think putting him on the tail end of a Top 60 defensemen is the only argument that can be made and even that one is tough

 

[Nick Hansen]

In this day and age, if you stop being relevant at age 30, you must've done some pretty darn remarkable things before that. Among recent inductees you have Forsberg and Lindros with a sort of similar number of games played and they were on an entirely different level. No one ever considered Subban the best player in the world.

If you ask me, he is not getting in. But considering some of the defensemen that have been inducted lately, such as Housley and Lowe (jesus...), I don't see why. He was a better player and has his Norris. But it hurts his case that he has "only" about 850 games played. With a normal decline, like if he was still being a good #2 or something on a playoff team, he'd be getting in purely on numbers and the Norris. Now? Guessing no.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Is he that far away from Dion Phaneuf...?

 

[sr edler]

Wasn't there some best-on-best international tourney where he only played 12 minutes or something because Canada insisted on playing Dan Hamhuis instead?

 

[JackSlater]

Wasn't there some best-on-best international tourney where he only played 12 minutes or something because Canada insisted on playing Dan Hamhuis instead?

Subban was the healthy scratch for most of the 2014 Olympics.

 

[Jumptheshark]

For me it is an easy no

 

[Smirnov2Chistov]

Easy no. Even comparing him with other greats in various decades I'm not sure if he cracks a top 200

 

[MadLuke]

Among recent inductees you have Forsberg and Lindros with a sort of similar number of games played and they were on an entirely different level.

The fact Lindros seem to have generated thought and had to wait does not bode well, that and like mentioned how good just around him draft were for Ds.

He could have a really good media career and build a lot of contacts with future voters and get in someday with a Norris and the Mtl fame, the not all of fame Norris winner at the moment are who, Randy Carlyle.

If we would remove the spectacular element (which we should not when talking all of fame, but if we would) I am not certain how you put Subban career above Markov.

 

[GMR]

Is he that far away from Dion Phaneuf...?

Maybe if you’re comparing dating resumes.

 

[seventieslord]

1st-3rd-3rd for the Norris would get most players in, yet, with less meat on the overall bone (GP, GP as a top-end player, award voting beyond 3 best years), and the fact that this Norris record almost certainly overrates him, I'm going to say no. Or at least, I hope not.

Is he that far away from Dion Phaneuf...?

Significantly more mobile and agile. Much better puck carrier. An actual driver of the play and not just a guy with decent puck skills and dynamite shot.

For a while there I'd have put him 2nd in the NHL after Karlsson for being able to lug the puck into and around the zone.

 

[norrisnick]

1st-3rd-3rd for the Norris would get most players in, yet, with less meat on the overall bone (GP, GP as a top-end player, award voting beyond 3 best years), and the fact that this Norris record almost certainly overrates him, I'm going to say no. Or at least, I hope not.


Significantly more mobile and agile. Much better puck carrier. An actual driver of the play and not just a guy with decent puck skills and dynamite shot.

For a while there I'd have put him 2nd in the NHL after Karlsson for being able to lug the puck into and around the zone.

Well shit... I was going to say Doug Wilson isn't in, but then on a whim double checked and didn't realize he recently did get in.

Subban is in that tier with Wilson and Carlyle as Norris one-offs that have decent but not outstanding careers. It took Wilson 25yrs of waiting so... I mean... stranger things, but I wouldn't hold my breath or expect it.

Which begs the question and I haven't dug back to see what the takes were at the time... do you suppose Wilson got inducted as a not quite enough as a player not quite enough as a builder but both combined kinda maybe HOF worthy?

 

[FissionFire]

At no point ever when watching Subban did I think I was watching a future HOF player. His resume isn’t all that impressive and he just wasn’t a top player for long enough, very short peak. I don’t see him getting into the HOF but then again who knows with these voters. They’ve inducted some really mediocre players lately.

 

[PrimumHockeyist]

PK Subban just announced his retirement.

One of the most entertaining players of his generation in my opinion, both on and off the ice. As a Habs fan - he was extremely likeable at the very least, and one of my favorites ever.

...Does he have a chance at the hall of fame?

Not quite a Hall of Famer, but definitely a great human being...

THANK YOU PK !

 

[McRpro]

No chance in hell.

 

[shadow1]

He has no chance of making the HHOF.

I vividly remember when he was traded from Nashville --> New Jersey for (2) 2nd Round picks (vividly because I was watching Day 2 of the Draft on my phone at the airport). I thought New Jersey fleeced Nashville for sure, and that the trade was a sign of how hard the salary cap was making it to move money (Subban carried a $9M AAV).

Instead Subban hit a wall harder than almost any player I can think of in recent memory. 18, 19, and 22 points in three seasons with the Devils? Those almost read as goal totals if you look back on his success with Montreal and Nashville.

Subban has his place in hockey history because he was a marquee name for many years, but his epic collapse killed his HHOF chances.

 

[rmartin65]

He has no chance of making the HHOF.

This I disagree with- the selection committee has made some strange selections of late...

I vividly remember when he was traded from Nashville --> New Jersey for (2) 2nd Round picks (vividly because I was watching Day 2 of the Draft on my phone at the airport). I thought New Jersey fleeced Nashville for sure, and that the trade was a sign of how hard the salary cap was making it to move money (Subban carried a $9M AAV).

Instead Subban hit a wall harder than almost any player I can think of in recent memory. 18, 19, and 22 points in three seasons with the Devils? Those almost read as goal totals if you look back on his success with Montreal and Nashville.

Subban has his place in hockey history because he was a marquee name for many years, but his epic collapse killed his HHOF chances.

... but yeah, I agree with this part. He was absolutely on a HoF track until he just fell apart. He was a great player, but not for long enough. Or the other way to look at it is that he wasn't good enough to make up for the short (for a star) career.

 

[vikash1987]

PK falls short of the HHOF, in my judgment. (Funny how Randy Carlyle is the only Norris winner who is eligible but isn't in the Hall.) That said, PK's been one of my favorite players, going back to the start of his career and to that miracle playoff run by the Canadiens in 2010. I can't think of a more likable, entertaining, and flashy player over the past decade.

 

[JackSlater]

I fully expect him to make the HHOF. Has a Norris, was a notable player and was such in Montreal, plus he'll almost certainly stick around in the media and keep his "fame" up. I don't even think he'll wait long. Won't hurt him either if places like CBC (or insert whatever other outlets) start writing articles about why the only black Norris winner isn't in the HHOF.

 

[seventieslord]

Well shit... I was going to say Doug Wilson isn't in, but then on a whim double checked and didn't realize he recently did get in.

Subban is in that tier with Wilson and Carlyle as Norris one-offs that have decent but not outstanding careers. It took Wilson 25yrs of waiting so... I mean... stranger things, but I wouldn't hold my breath or expect it.

Which begs the question and I haven't dug back to see what the takes were at the time... do you suppose Wilson got inducted as a not quite enough as a player not quite enough as a builder but both combined kinda maybe HOF worthy?

Yes, it's possible Wilson's post-playing career bridged the gap, so to speak, but they also watered down the criteria so heavily with some compiler forwards lately, that he suddenly looked like a completely uncontroversial induction.

I wouldn't quite put Subban on his tier. There is definitely more meat on the bone with Wilson:

- 1-3-3-4 in relevant norris voting seasons vs. 1-3-3 (and I'd say top-end competition makes this gap more substantial)
- more time as a top-end, though not necessarily norris-caliber defenseman: 13 seasons vs. 8 seasons
- more games as an NHL-caliber player: 1024 vs. 834 which is on the surface 23% more (understated by longevity trends of the era: 9th most GP among players in his birth year plus and minus one. Subban will be ~50th in GP in his birth year range when all is said and done, and he's already 30th).

 

[who_me?]

First ballot for the Black Hockey Hall of Fame

 

[reckoning]

Was Subban actually considered a serious Conn Smythe candidate in 2017?

He was the only Predator to get a vote, but one third-place vote doesn't really matter. It seemed like the talk at the time was that Pekka Rinne would have been the leading candidate had Nashville won.