Pittsburgh Sports Media Gibberish - Part IX

[billybudd]

Solid article. I still think Scuds waits too long to make the pass back to Despres at times, which handcuffs or limits Despres' options, but this helps to shed light into the pairings.

I think that's by design, too. The pass to the "reset button" guy is to buy time for the forwards to circle back (off screen) and regroup for plan B.

They have plenty of options to either increase Despres' ice time or change the pairings if they really wanted to.

See, I came to the opposite conclusion. Without Maatta, there are 4 D on the roster who can do the "center fielder" job adequately and you MUST have one on each pairing. Letang's a lock on the first pairing. Despres moves the puck capably, but does he move it better than Ehrhoff or Martin? Some would say yes, but I'm not one of them.

So you pencil one of them as the safety valve on the first pair and the other as the primary puck-mover on the second.

Leaving a need for the role on pairing 3 with one possible guy to fill it.

To me, Scuds is fine as a "safety valve." He will never get you into trouble doing that. Do you trust Bort to be the primary puck mover on the third pairing? I don't. Hell, I don't trust him to reset the play without getting himself into trouble.


Lot of people around the Pens brass (Bourque, Lang) have been talking about the need to add a vet D. Without passing judgment on that, I'm starting to think Bortuzzo's why. Dumoulin can do the job of moving the puck in the long-term, but he'll probably take more than 40 games to get comfortable (and there will be plenty of mistakes until he does). Harrington isn't really a puck-mover and Pouliot is at least a year away, I think.

In the offseason, I thought Scuds would struggle to play Winterhawks hockey more than anyone, but reading this, I think Bort might be the man without a country.

 

[cheesedanish87]

I think that's by design, too. The pass to the "reset button" guy is to buy time for the forwards to circle back (off screen) and regroup for plan B.




See, I came to the opposite conclusion. Without Maatta, there are 4 D on the roster who can do the "center fielder" job adequately and you MUST have one on each pairing. Letang's a lock on the first pairing. Despres moves the puck capably, but does he move it better than Ehrhoff or Martin? Some would say yes, but I'm not one of them.

So you pencil one of them as the safety valve on the first pair and the other as the primary puck-mover on the second.

Leaving a need for the role on pairing 3 with one possible guy to fill it.

To me, Scuds is fine as a "safety valve." He will never get you into trouble doing that. Do you trust Bort to be the primary puck mover on the third pairing? I don't. Hell, I don't trust him to reset the play without getting himself into trouble.


Lot of people around the Pens brass (Bourque, Lang) have been talking about the need to add a vet D. Without passing judgment on that, I'm starting to think Bortuzzo's why. Dumoulin can do the job of moving the puck in the long-term, but he'll probably take more than 40 games to get comfortable (and there will be plenty of mistakes until he does). Harrington isn't really a puck-mover and Pouliot is at least a year away, I think.

In the offseason, I thought Scuds would struggle to play Winterhawks hockey more than anyone, but reading this, I think Bort might be the man without a country.

I would like to see MJ try Martin with Scuderi and Despres with Borts, with Maatta being out you gotta figure out some long term pairs, i don't think you can have Borts in the top 4.

 

[Artie Party]

I think you're right about Bortuzzo. Whether he gets moved before the deadline or in the offseason, I think he is the odd man out since he can't play with Scuderi. You can't have Bortuzzo playing top 4 come playoff time. Now the question becomes, do they trust Despres to play top4 with Ehrhoff for the playoffs now with Maatta out for the season? And would they bring Dumo up to play 3rd line or sign a Vet D?

 

[IcedCapp]

I actually read that in a similar way to BillyBudd.

The Penguins want 1 puck mover and one safety valve on each line. It makes sense that you would break your pairs up in accordance to your puck movers.

Letang is unquestionably the Pens' best puck mover.

I think you could make an argument that Despres is second-best (against Ehrhoff, I don't think it's close with Martin), but I also know and accept that they'll never promote Despres over both Martin and Ehrhoff.

In that sense, it's not "is Despres good enough to move up to the 1st or 2nd pair" it's "you'd be limiting either Despres or the person he's paired with AND removing our best-remaining puck-mover from the 3rd line"

In fact, when you think of it that way, having pairs of:

Martin - Letang
Ehrhoff - Despres
Scuderi - Bortuzzo

it makes it easy to look at that article and understand why Bortuzzo and Scuderi don't really work well together.

I guess the only thing I'd question is, if this is what you really want - and I accept that it is - shouldn't Scuderi be moving up over Bortuzzo?

If Scuderi is playing fine in the context of this role, he should be able to play fine with Ehrhoff (Martin - Letang should be the top pairing with these 6players, imo). Scuderi is already playing increased minutes (and feel free to debate who you'd rather have playing 18 minutes a night between Bortuzzo and Scuderi) and Bortuzzo - Despres has worked in the past.

If this is their plan moving forward, I would hope that neither Martin nor Ehrhoff are retained.

Letang, Despres and Pouliot should play the puck-carrier/breakout role next year, and a mix of Maatta, Harrington, Dumoulin and Bortuzzo can fill out the "Scuderi" role.

 

[steveg]

Very interesting article; thanks for posting the link, billybudd.

Based on this perspective of understanding the Pens' choices of D-pairs, two things come to mind.

One -- this would given at least some degree of explanation as to why management seems to "prefer" Scuds in the lineup, even when we have "more talented" (albeit less experienced) alternatives. IF you assume that, as Capp said, the young guys who will at some point play the role of the Scuds/reset button guy are Harrington and Dumoulin, it might make sense -- GIVEN that Scuds and his 3.3 million dollar contract are already here -- that there is some veteran experience/calming presence/mentoring role that he brings, such that he is a better partner for Despres (EVEN IF Harrington or Dumo will at some point be clearly better players than Scuds). In other words, I could see a scenario where you have to picking a partner for Despres, with an eye on making a Cup run, and on your roster you have Scuds, and you have Harrington. Scuds JUST MIGHT, at this point in time in his career compared to Harrington, provide some intangibles that make him, dare I say, a potentially better choice for Despres' partner (even though Harry will be -- and may already be -- a "better" player in some ways). Hmm...

Two -- this is something that I don't understand as well, and that is that in theory, given this understanding of the D-pairs, Scuds should work well with Letang, in a similar way that he works well with Despres, BUT -- it didn't seem like this was the case to me, when I have seen Tanger and Scuds as a pair. Perhaps they have no chemistry? Perhaps Letang is SUCH a superior skater that Scuds simply cannot keep up at all, and that's why the pairing doesn't work as well as Scuds/Despres? I don't know...

 

[flaneur]

Elliotte Friedman's 30 Thoughts this week had a bit on the Pens:

11. Penguins GM Jim Rutherford, asked what he’s learned seeing Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin up close: “Crosby is all about hockey. He’s thinking hockey 26 hours a day trying to make us better. Malkin is better than I thought, and I already thought he was great.â€

12. Rutherford’s plan for the next little while is to wait.

“It’s been tough for us with the injuries, but I think we are harder to play against… able to win games every which way. We could play physical, with skill, have our goaltender win one, whatever game is happening every night.â€

Now he wants to see what the team looks like when Patric Hornqvist returns after the All-Star Game. “Then I can see what is needed, if anything. Get a feel for it.â€

13. The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette’s Dave Molinari reported Olli Maatta may miss the rest of the season with a shoulder injury.

Although there have been rumours about a Paul Martin trade, a couple other teams said they doubted it. The Penguins are in it to win it, and are a better team with him, even if he walks in the summer.

If you want one of their good, young blueline prospects — Brian Dumoulin, Scott Harrington or Derrick Pouliot — it won’t be easy, “because we know what we’ve got with them, and it’s hard to find,†Rutherford said. “I would prefer not to… If it makes the difference I would consider it, but if I don’t trade them, the Pittsburgh defence is set for a long time.â€

He said Dumoulin and Harrington are ready to play full-time in the NHL. Pouliot? “I don’t want to get ahead of things with him, the GM said, “but he is improving and getting closer.â€

 

[djt153]

minor quibbles aside, seems like more sensible comments from GMJR. i would say that acting like you dont want to trade paul martin is probably the best thing to say if you do want to move martin, maatta news notwithstanding

 

[cygnus47]

If Maatta had been in all season and playing well, trade Martin all day. As it stands though, we need him if we want to be competitive in the playoffs. We're not getting a long term winger for him, it was only ever going to be a rental for rental swap.

 

[billybudd]

Two -- this is something that I don't understand as well, and that is that in theory, given this understanding of the D-pairs, Scuds should work well with Letang, in a similar way that he works well with Despres, BUT -- it didn't seem like this was the case to me, when I have seen Tanger and Scuds as a pair. Perhaps they have no chemistry? Perhaps Letang is SUCH a superior skater that Scuds simply cannot keep up at all, and that's why the pairing doesn't work as well as Scuds/Despres? I don't know...

You'd think, but buried in Marshall's graphics is the explanation for why it doesn't. One of those GIFs has Martin, on a Martin-Letang pairing acting as the passer, while some wing is providing reset support.

The reason for this is that 58 decided to play F3 for that rush. For a Letang pairing, his partner needs to be able to do either job and Scuds can only do one.

 

[steveg]

You'd think, but buried in Marshall's graphics is the explanation for why it doesn't. One of those GIFs has Martin, on a Martin-Letang pairing acting as the passer, while some wing is providing reset support.

The reason for this is that 58 decided to play F3 for that rush. For a Letang pairing, his partner needs to be able to do either job and Scuds can only do one.

Interesting point, billybudd. I remember the clip where Letang became the F3, but didn't see the detail of Martin then becoming by default the "passing" guy, with a winger assuming the "Scuds" role. BUT -- that makes some sense; I'll go back and look at the clip, but yes -- if Scuds found himself in Martin's position on such a play, it wouldn't likely go very well. Taking this further, even with Maatta and Dumoulin and Harrington potentially being the "Scuds role" guy on their pairing (when playing opposite a Letang, or an Ehrhoff, or a Despres, or a Pouliot), each of the three of them CAN make a good first pass, and so would in no way be "inept" at doing so the way Scuds basically is. That bodes well for our future...

 

[AjaxTelamon]

I actually read that in a similar way to BillyBudd.

The Penguins want 1 puck mover and one safety valve on each line. It makes sense that you would break your pairs up in accordance to your puck movers.

Letang is unquestionably the Pens' best puck mover.

I think you could make an argument that Despres is second-best (against Ehrhoff, I don't think it's close with Martin), but I also know and accept that they'll never promote Despres over both Martin and Ehrhoff.

In that sense, it's not "is Despres good enough to move up to the 1st or 2nd pair" it's "you'd be limiting either Despres or the person he's paired with AND removing our best-remaining puck-mover from the 3rd line"

In fact, when you think of it that way, having pairs of:

Martin - Letang
Ehrhoff - Despres
Scuderi - Bortuzzo

it makes it easy to look at that article and understand why Bortuzzo and Scuderi don't really work well together.

I guess the only thing I'd question is, if this is what you really want - and I accept that it is - shouldn't Scuderi be moving up over Bortuzzo?

If Scuderi is playing fine in the context of this role, he should be able to play fine with Ehrhoff (Martin - Letang should be the top pairing with these 6players, imo). Scuderi is already playing increased minutes (and feel free to debate who you'd rather have playing 18 minutes a night between Bortuzzo and Scuderi) and Bortuzzo - Despres has worked in the past.

In addition to the points raised in the article and further clarified by our excellent HF board analysts, Despres plays a brand of hockey that is going to wear him down if he is put out there for huge minutes night in and night out. That combined with the fact that he still is a young guy who hasn't played an entire NHL campaign + post season must go into the coaching decision to play him where's he playing, and the resulting [low] TOI.

If this is their plan moving forward, I would hope that neither Martin nor Ehrhoff are retained.

Letang, Despres and Pouliot should play the puck-carrier/breakout role next year, and a mix of Maatta, Harrington, Dumoulin and Bortuzzo can fill out the "Scuderi" role.

I would agree. The limited playing time is keeping the price down on the young guys, at the very least, but they will all be ready for regular NHL time next year.

 

[Joejosh999]

DK takes on all those of us stupid enough to think Parise would have been a nice fit with Sid!
You go, DK!

http://dkonpittsburghsports.com/2015/01/14/column-hey-penguins/

 

[Joejosh999]

Hilarious.
Says we wouldn't have been able to pay Letang 7.25 mil (that is a bad thing?) , skips the Scuds signing altogether, and hypothesizes we wouldn't sign MAF either!

 

[SEALBound]

DK takes on all those of us stupid enough to think Parise would have been a nice fit with Sid!
You go, DK!

http://dkonpittsburghsports.com/2015/01/14/column-hey-penguins/

If we got Suter and Parise, we likely would have had much more leverage with Letang. We could have signed him to a $6mil type contract. That would have negated the need for Ehrhoff and Scuderi. The numbers would have worked. With Parise, the need to resign Kunitz AND Dupuis for 3.75mils wouldn't have been necessary either. Parise could have easily replaced Kunitz. Again, we would have had more leverage with both of them.

Anyway...I guess on another world line we have Parise and Suter...but not this one. Oh well.

 

[Ugene Magic]

If we got Suter and Parise, we likely would have had much more leverage with Letang. We could have signed him to a $6mil type contract. That would have negated the need for Ehrhoff and Scuderi. The numbers would have worked. With Parise, the need to resign Kunitz AND Dupuis for 3.75mils wouldn't have been necessary either. Parise could have easily replaced Kunitz. Again, we would have had more leverage with both of them.

Anyway...I guess on another world line we have Parise and Suter...but not this one. Oh well.

Exactly.

It's not as bad as DK is professing it. What's happening in Minny is not what most likely would have happen here. They needed a better supporting cast there, as to if they came to the Pens they'd be only small steps away from being set.

 

[Winger for Hire]

Exactly.

It's not as bad as DK is professing it. What's happening in Minny is not what most likely would have happen here. They needed a better supporting cast there, as to if they came to the Pens they'd be only small steps away from being set.

I think anyone coming to the bolded conclusion is ignoring the fact that Parise/Suter were brought to Minny to be the Sid and Malkin/Letang. They would have been in to Pittsburgh to compliment Sid/Malkin.

 

[BobCole]

Would be curious to see somebody fill out a Pens roster with Suter/Parise on the payroll. I imagine it would be very tricky.

 

[Winger for Hire]

IC had a nice rundown in the Shero/DB thread-

The past month notwithstanding, Suter certainly is worth the money he's paid. Parise is a trickier. You really don't want to pay franchise money to a winger, but there are always exceptions. I think Parise would be one of those.

What would the team look like?


That Penguins team, pre-trades, looked like:

Kunitz (3,725,000) - Crosby (8,700,000) - Dupuis (1,500,000)
Neal (5,000,000) - Malkin (8,700,000) - Tangradi (726,000)
Cooke (1,800,000) - Sutter (2,066,667) - Kennedy (2,000,000)
Glass (1,100,000) - Vitale (550,000) - Adams (675,000)


Niskanen (2,300,000) - Letang (3,500,000)
Orpik (3,750,000) - Martin (5,000,000)
Engelland (566,667) - Bortuzzo (525,000)
Despres (840,000)

(this is before the Boychuk claim, the Eaton signing, the Bennett call-up, and any trade)

With this, the Penguins had: $17,175,666 cap space (70.2M cap)

if you assume both Parise and Suter accepted ~8M$ contracts, that gives you think:

Parise (8,000,000) - Crosby (8,700,000) - Dupuis (1,500,000)

Kunitz (3,725,000) - Malkin (8,700,000) - Neal (5,000,000)

Cooke (1,800,000) - Sutter (2,066,667) - Kennedy (2,000,000)

Glass (1,100,000) - Vitale (550,000) - Adams (575,000)



Suter (8,000,000) - Letang (3,500,000)

Orpik (3,750,000) - Martin (5,000,000)

Niskanen (2,300,000) - Engelland (566,667)

Bortuzzo (525,000) - Despres (840,000)

Fleury (5M)
Vokoun (2M)

For that year, about 5M over the cap. I don't know if you can look at this list and see anywhere 5M immediately comes off the books. If you do, understand what happens next...

the next year, Adams (726,000), Dupuis (1,500,000), and Cooke (1,800,000) all came off the books, which would have left the Penguins with:

Parise (8M) - Crosby (8.7M) - XXXXXXX

Kunitz (3.725M) - Malkin (8.7M) - Neal (5M)

XXXXXXXX - Sutter (2M) - XXXXXXXXXXX (Kennedy was traded)

Glass (1.1M) - Vitale (550K) - XXXXXXXX



Suter (8M) - Letang (3.5M)

Orpik (3.75M) - Niskanen (2.3M)

Engelland/Bortuzzo/Despres (2M)

Fleury (5M)
Zatkoff (537k)

This has the Pens spending $62,862,000. The cap this year was $64,300,000, leaving the Pens with $1,438,000 in cap space. Let's say the Penguins fill two of those holes (3rd and 4th line wings) with Beau Bennett (900k) and Zach Sill (550k) (who played that season).

That puts the Pens at -12k, with two spots to fill. At this point, who does Shero move? The most-logical thought is Niskanen, but that only gives you ~2.15M to fill two spots. If you use a min-level player on the 3rd line, you're now looking to fill Crosby's line with a 1.5M player.

The following season, Malkin and Letang's contracts kick in. You're now down another 5M, but the cap went up around that number.

Now Orpik (3.75) Engelland (566,667) Glass (1.1M) Vitale (550K), Kunitz (3.725M), Niskanen (if you kept him (2.3M)), Despres (840k), Sutter (2M) are all off the books.

Basically, you have:



Parise (8M) - Crosby (8.7M) - XXXXXXX

XXXXXXXX - Malkin (9.5M) - Neal (5M)

XXXXXXXX - XXXXXXXXXX - Bennett (900k)

XXXXXXXX - XXXXXXXXXX - XXXXXXXX


Suter (8M) - Letang (7.25M)

XXXXXXX - XXXXXXX

XXXXXXX - XXXXXXX



Fleury (5M)
Backup (600K)

52,950,000 tied up in those players. You have 11 spots to fill.

It seems clear that the young kids on defense (Despres, Dumoulin, Morrow, Harrington, Bortuzzo, at that time) would have been playing a huge role in filling out the roster.

The defense would be a ton younger/cheaper. No clue who fills out the forward group. Basically had 20M to fill 11 spots.

 

[Joejosh999]

Also DK seems to be saying they've quit on Yeo......something we were debating going on w Sid -Bylsma not so long ago.
Really disingenuous article IMO.....

But of course EVERY commenter is like "DK yer a GENIUS man!!!"

Honestly.

 

[SEALBound]

IC had a nice rundown in the Shero/DB thread-

Good write up for sure, however, as I stated, I'm not sure that we would have paid Letang the 7.25mil. We could have had the leverage saying take $5mil for you will be traded. With that, we could have gotten a lot of good young assets that could have filled out the roster. Scaling them back to the $7.5 they got, adds a mil to the space as well. No doubt it would have been tight but it would have filled in gaping holes.

I would have also been much happier with mere third wheels if the duos were Parise-Crosby and Malkin-Neal. Kunitz could have been one and Bennett or Dupuis could have been the others. There are just so many unknowns to consider. Would Dupuis have had a season that warranted a $3.75mil contract? Would Letang? One could argue that the season Letang had leading up to his pay day was a sub par season...when he signed that a lot of us had serious doubts about it's value.

We could have traded Letang to a place that really needed him, say Minny/Detroit/Edmonton/Anaheim...and a lot of those teams have young assets that could have filled out the roster ie, Coyle, Jurco/Mantha, 1st rd pick, Pal/Silf/DSP/Ritchie.

We would have shipped out Martin...and perhaps even Orpik earlier. Niskanen could have been kept...just too many variables. Although IC's write up provides a good broader picture about cap space, who knows if it would have worked out that way.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

DK takes on all those of us stupid enough to think Parise would have been a nice fit with Sid!
You go, DK!

http://dkonpittsburghsports.com/2015/01/14/column-hey-penguins/

I agree with some of it, but using the term "sappy" as the reason Suter and Parise went to Minny reeks of a scorned lover.

I specifically remember Parise discussing all of the reasons he wanted to go to the Wild, and one of the biggest reasons was their strong farm. He felt they had enough young talent coming through the ranks to be good for a long time, which I agreed with at the time. So DK is being a little dramatic here.

If we got Suter and Parise, we likely would have had much more leverage with Letang. We could have signed him to a $6mil type contract. That would have negated the need for Ehrhoff and Scuderi. The numbers would have worked. With Parise, the need to resign Kunitz AND Dupuis for 3.75mils wouldn't have been necessary either. Parise could have easily replaced Kunitz. Again, we would have had more leverage with both of them.

Anyway...I guess on another world line we have Parise and Suter...but not this one. Oh well.

Or traded Letang to fill out other roster spots, as people are so fond of wanting to do. If they had Suter, he would have made it much easier to do that kind of deal.

Lots of scenarios DK neglected.

 

[Joejosh999]

DK dramatic?
Esp when it's self-serving?
No!!

Really I used to like the guy,and still feel he is one of the better locals, but it's starting to feel like a cult over there. The comments are so suck-up.

 

[Winger for Hire]

DK dramatic?
Esp when it's self-serving?
No!!

Really I used to like the guy,and still feel he is one of the better locals, but it's starting to feel like a cult over there. The comments are so suck-up.

Well, it is a pay site, correct? You're going to have 99% DK group-think if the people commenting are paying for access to the site.

 

[IcedCapp]

Trading Letang was certainly an option in that scenario, but since ownership seemed so against it, it was one move I never bothered fleshing out.

Even with that move, the Penguins would have had to fill a huge number of holes with limited cap space

 

[Joejosh999]

Well, it is a pay site, correct? You're going to have 99% DK group-think if the people commenting are paying for access to the site.

I suppose I didn't anticipate 99% .....ugh.