OT: Pirates Talk: That Skenes guy is okay at teh baseball
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wheelz87
LGP
We are one of 30-32 cities lucky enough to have a team. And to have that potentially be taken away? **** no. I know people who don't go because of Nutting. That's fine. You don't have to support them. There's so many other teams/sports to follow. Every new season we start 0-0. And that blind optimism will keep me going. Sports are my outlet. Pittsburgh isn't huge but we've got three, generally speaking, extremely successful franchises. So no, its not ok if any of them leave. If you don't work for them, you're supposed to be a fan. Through the good and through the crap. You have every right to hate the path they are on, allowed to be frustrated with the direction. But to actively want them to leave? That's just sad.
Goalie_Bob
1992 Vezina (2nd)
140+ years. The Pirates are the 3rd oldest professional sports franchise in the US. And 2nd oldest to stay in one city. (Braves are #1 but have moved several times, Cubs are 2nd oldest)
I find it laughable that they will move. Pittsburgh is a growing market that has a good fanbase. And Pittsburgh has the best stadium in MLB.
MLB wants new cities to pay an expansion fee so the owners can get a piece of the pie. And before someone brings up the A's, totally different situation.
The city and Nutting will come up with an agreement.
Ugene Magic
EVIL LAUGH
The problem is with the enablers who keep owners like Nutting in place.
No amount of fandom should enable this much crooked ownership to stay in place. So while people don't want the team to move, they enable them to stay in purgatory undoing what the ones with courage to walk away from their own fandom and heritage are doing to help everyone be in a better place. There is no middle ground here, you are either for everyone or you are for enabling bad ownership stealing, playing with fans hopes and dreams, squashing them, year in and year out.
So I really don't care what any enablers say or want just to say they have a team. What good is that?
Bad guy just keeps winning with all of you guys approval. He doesn't even need to sellout to profit.
His pockets, thank you very much.
Suckers are born and raised to be Pirate fans. He doesn't share his booty.
No amount of fandom should enable this much crooked ownership to stay in place. So while people don't want the team to move, they enable them to stay in purgatory undoing what the ones with courage to walk away from their own fandom and heritage are doing to help everyone be in a better place. There is no middle ground here, you are either for everyone or you are for enabling bad ownership stealing, playing with fans hopes and dreams, squashing them, year in and year out.
So I really don't care what any enablers say or want just to say they have a team. What good is that?
Bad guy just keeps winning with all of you guys approval. He doesn't even need to sellout to profit.
His pockets, thank you very much.
Suckers are born and raised to be Pirate fans. He doesn't share his booty.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
Imagine calling fans "enablers" when Nutting would still be making a profit with a completely empty stadium due to revenue sharing.
The most insufferable kind of Pirates fans are the one who belittle others who just want to enjoy watching the Pirates. If you hate the Nutting owned Pirates so much, stop paying attention to them. Don't lecture the actual fans in here based on "YOU'RE GIVING MONEY TO NUTTING!" because we like baseball and the Pirates.
The most insufferable kind of Pirates fans are the one who belittle others who just want to enjoy watching the Pirates. If you hate the Nutting owned Pirates so much, stop paying attention to them. Don't lecture the actual fans in here based on "YOU'RE GIVING MONEY TO NUTTING!" because we like baseball and the Pirates.
Ugene Magic
EVIL LAUGH
Empoleon8771
Registered User
They make a ton of money from teams like the Dodgers and Yankees giving up money from their lucrative local TV deals to the poorer teams in the MLB. PNC Park could be a ghost town and Nutting would still make money.
The reality is that no amount of protests are going to change the fact that Bob Nutting owns the team.
BusinessGoose
Registered User
PNC *is* a ghost town and he's still making money
The A's averaged like 3k (butts in seats, "11k official") fans all year. The owner doesn't care. He doesn't even care that they'll be in a AAA ballpark for lord knows how many years. He's leaving Oakland over money, but it obviously isn't REALLY over money...
Now, Nutting is no doubt making millions every year. He could make more or less, if they changed the strategy. But status quo, no MLB team is really losing money.
The A's averaged like 3k (butts in seats, "11k official") fans all year. The owner doesn't care. He doesn't even care that they'll be in a AAA ballpark for lord knows how many years. He's leaving Oakland over money, but it obviously isn't REALLY over money...
Now, Nutting is no doubt making millions every year. He could make more or less, if they changed the strategy. But status quo, no MLB team is really losing money.
Ugene Magic
EVIL LAUGH
That profit sharing is to go into the team not his pocket. And yes, if he has little to no fans he's also getting little to no merchandise and other profits either.
Turning 30.0 down to a minimal 1.0 to 3.0 will certainly cause a farkes.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
There is zero chance that the status quo remains the same if every single person said f*** off as it relates to the Pirates. No chance MLB allows an empty stadium day after day. There are political ramifications to people not buying Pirates products.
Like I said, I want some winning mixed in with the existence of the franchise. The Steelers and Penguins have done that. The Pirates haven't won a playoff series in more than 40 years, unless you count play in WC games.
40 f***ing years of not winning a thing that matters.
I'm willing to bet the vast majority of people posting here (myself included) weren't even alive the last time the above happened.
Without any semblance of winning, there is no point in having a team. None. Unless you enjoy watching AND PAYING for shit. And a lot of people apparently do.
Like I said, I want some winning mixed in with the existence of the franchise. The Steelers and Penguins have done that. The Pirates haven't won a playoff series in more than 40 years, unless you count play in WC games.
40 f***ing years of not winning a thing that matters.
I'm willing to bet the vast majority of people posting here (myself included) weren't even alive the last time the above happened.
Without any semblance of winning, there is no point in having a team. None. Unless you enjoy watching AND PAYING for shit. And a lot of people apparently do.
There is no way you can enforce that so it is a theoretical pipe dream. Nutting will get a profit regardless of fan behavior. Sure, his profit might decrease some based off of it, but he can always decrease the payroll.
ChaosAgent
Registered User
- May 8, 2018
- 18,498
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I thought our resident expert WheresBootlicker said that the Pirates are only clearing like $7M a year today based on 2007-2009. Looks like that was horribly understated (duh).
What I don't understand is why the city won't be more aggressive towards Nutting. There should be mayoral candidates whose platform is "I will make Bob Nutting sell." I guarantee that candidate would win elections in Pittsburgh, irrespective of their other platforms/positions. Work with the MLBPA against this owner.
I think a lot of cities would clamor for the Pirates but not with this owner. He doesn't have great alternatives.
What I don't understand is why the city won't be more aggressive towards Nutting. There should be mayoral candidates whose platform is "I will make Bob Nutting sell." I guarantee that candidate would win elections in Pittsburgh, irrespective of their other platforms/positions. Work with the MLBPA against this owner.
I think a lot of cities would clamor for the Pirates but not with this owner. He doesn't have great alternatives.
win or move is honestly the dumbest concept in the history of sports and why i am far more interested in soccer these days. franchises are idiotic and the worst kind of socialism. clubs should represent cities. they should not be portable. the pirates being this bad should have them dropped down to aaa.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
Taxpayers should get a better return on their investment from a supposed professional org.
Then again, people are stupid enough to spend hundreds, even thousands of dollars every year on a loser.
Then again, people are stupid enough to spend hundreds, even thousands of dollars every year on a loser.
i think you totally miss the point of sports fandom. you root for your team, people who root for 'winners' arent fun to be around
Empoleon8771
Registered User
Not only that, but there will also be away fans coming to games even if all Pirates fans boycotted the team. Which they won't, because a ton of Pirates fans are just casuals who go to a few games a year to just enjoy the game and ballpark.
Fans have this bizarre and arrogant idea that they somehow have power over their local sports teams and can push for change or a better product, but I have no clue where this thought comes from. Bob Nutting owns the Pirates. No one can force him to sell unless it's the MLB, but the MLB has no incentive to do unless some scandal comes out with Nutting. He owns the team and he can run it how he sees fit. Does it suck for Pirates fans? Sure, but if you hate it so much, just don't be a fan.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
This isn't a child's game. I'm spending good money so I expect good results. At least some of the time. I'm not even expecting year after year success.
I don't do sports betting, got out of fantasy sports a few years back, so I'm not on some tilt here.
I'm 41 and understand that when I pay money to someone or something, for a product, I expect better than shit returns.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
You continually miss the larger picture.
If there was a hypothetical strike against Nutting, meaning no one went to games, no one bought a Pirates licensed product, shit would change and it would change rather quickly.
It would change because the people striking, are taxpayers. Regular people who vote the politicians who handle the public sector, into and out of power. Those politicians would put pressure on MLB who would then quietly (at first) tell Nutting to make some changes or else. And if the "or else" part goes unanswered, Nutting will be forced out.
MLB doesn't want (and won't allow) a mockery and a team with no fans an no product sales is a mockery.
It won't happen though, so it doesn't matter.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
There is no "larger picture" that I'm missing here. The reality is that Bob Nutting owns the team and there is literally nothing fans can do about how he runs the team. There are no protests, articles, letters to politicians or whatever the hell else you can come up with that will change that. It's a fairy tale suggestion.
Not only that, but this idea that politicians should be worried about what a MLB owner is spending because "I want a winner" is so wildly self centered that I can't even begin to bring up the issues with that. Pro sports are a business, that's it. It's playing a game for entertainment and people spend money on that entertainment.
The reality is this:
1. A ton of fans who go to Pirates games are not hardcore fans and are just going there for the environment, to enjoy a nice baseball game on a Sunday afternoon or Friday/Saturday evening. Especially to see an ace like Skenes pitch.
2. A ton of away fans go to Pirates games because of how nice PNC Park is.
3. Nutting still nets a profit even outside of gate receipts due to things like revenue sharing, TV deals and merchandise sales.
People bring up Mark Cuban as if he'd somehow be a savior to Pirates baseball, but he has literally said that he'd run the team in the same exact way that Nutting does. The reality is that this is a baseball wide problem until they implement salary floors and salary caps, which is never going to happen. No amount of fans or media whining is going to change anything. This hypothetical of "let's say everyone strikes against the Pirates" is about as realistic as Livvy Dunne dumping Skenes to date me, it's not going to happen.
Fans can do whatever they want to try to get changes done. It is assuredly a waste of time and pointless, but I'm not one to tell fans how to spend their time. But these ideas of blaming fans for enjoying the Pirates and "enabling the status quo" or saying "either win or move" is nothing short of arrogance. It's an ultimate Karen move of "something upsets me so I'm going to make it everyone's problem".
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Empoleon8771
Registered User
Feel for Musgrove, I feel like it's impossible for any pitcher to avoid TJS at this point. Not trying to jinx anything, but the fact that Keller hasn't needed TJS yet despite throwing in 1300 innings professionally is pretty wild. Keller has been an anomaly with how durable he has been.
That's also something that's pretty good about Jones and Skenes, they went up through the minors so quickly that he hasn't put a ton of innings on their arms yet. Jones only had 315 innings in the minors before making it to the MLB and Skenes was only at 270 innings before making it to the majors. Really nice that those two have such low mileage on their arms, hopefully it delays the inevitably TJS until after they're no longer on the Pirates.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
You're missing literal points I'm making. You cannot comprehend just how sick and tired people are paying for shit product. So I'll just type, to type.
3. Nutting's profits would shrink massively without fans going to games or buying merch. That's tens of millions alone. Any profit would have to come from revenue sharing and TV, though the latter is small potatoes given the lack of market volume.
Furthermore, Nutting would have to drastically cut payroll to keep profits higher, and that guarantees losing 100+ games most years and that doesn't even bring into light the optics of having a graveyard day in and night out. Pressure would mount quickly for a resolution given the horrid history attached to Nutting already.
I acknowledge that this scenario has as close to 0% change of happening as you can get, but in the event it were to, you can bet things would change. That's the lager picture.
Pretending there is nothing anyone can do, is absurd. Advocating that people who are not content to endure the lip service after years of absolute shite, are somehow crazy, is comical to me, as is claiming you somehow get enjoyment in watching a team lose more games than they win, and routinely never make any changes. Year after year.
The Marlins cleaned house. The Reds just hired Francona. The Twins canned the GM who brought them 3 or 4 ALC titles over the last 8 years.
Meanwhile, apparently your enjoyment is knowing the last 5 years of shit = another year of employment for the men responsible for the last 5 years of shit.
I get enjoyment watching my son play the game as a 12 year old. I don't have to pay for that, other than the equipment needed.
I pay to watch the Pirates on TV. I pay to go to the games. I pay to rep their products. Taxpayers in the city/state paid for PNC park.
I expect a winning product from time to time, at the very least. Or the appearance of a franchise trying to get there. I can stomach losing if there is effort and accountability.
We have neither of those in the current regime. And wanting to endure that, just for the sake of having a team to root for, regardless of result, is asinine, to me.
We are a laughingstock. A disgrace.
I'm simply over it. Fix it or move it. They've got 6 years to make it happen.
