OT: Pirates Talk: That Skenes guy is okay at teh baseball
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Empoleon8771
Registered User
Here's the best way to sum up their season: they added a 6 WAR superstar pitcher and didn't increase their wins by any this year.
I do think that the progression of young guys this year was generally good, so it wasn't an absolute failure of a season. Bart and Gonzales look like legitimate starters going forward with the hitters and Cruz put together a really good full season after his nasty injury last year. The fact that Cruz seamlessly transitioned to CF and put up good defensive metrics (+2 OAA in CF) is even better, I think they have their CF long-term. Skenes is obviously an ace and I think both Jones and Ortiz showed they're good starters as well, although I'm skeptical of how much of Ortiz's performance this year is sustainable going forward.
But beyond that, it's pretty awful. Even with Gonzales (2B), Bart (C) and Cruz (CF) locking up those positions, they still have huge holes or question marks at a ton of other positions. Reynolds is a liability defensively in LF, but you know his bat will play so it's not the end of the world. But beyond that, there are massive question marks or just complete holes between the rest of their positions. The development of the 6 guys above (Bart, Gonzales, Cruz, Skenes, Jones and Ortiz) is the only saving grace for how many other awful developments and regressions this team had.
Suwinski went from a legitimate platoon bat to a minor leaguer. Hayes offense fell apart entirely and it's pretty clear his back will never be healthy enough for him to be a good hitter in the MLB. De La Cruz was absolutely horrendous after being acquired, to the point where I think they should just non-tender him. Bednar became an atrocious reliever. The UFA additions Cherington made were all terrible. There was far more stagnation of regression than progression, even with the massive jump Bart made.
I don't feel any reason to be optimistic about this team going into next year because there's no reason to think they're going to actually do anything to improve the team substantially. Nutting is completely fine with this team being a mediocre .500 team, it's good enough for fans to show up and he'll be making a nice profit with it. This doesn't excuse the shitty job Cherington and Shelton have done, but I just don't see any reason to think that Nutting will actually push changes when the team now is doing what he wants it to do: make him money.
I do think that the progression of young guys this year was generally good, so it wasn't an absolute failure of a season. Bart and Gonzales look like legitimate starters going forward with the hitters and Cruz put together a really good full season after his nasty injury last year. The fact that Cruz seamlessly transitioned to CF and put up good defensive metrics (+2 OAA in CF) is even better, I think they have their CF long-term. Skenes is obviously an ace and I think both Jones and Ortiz showed they're good starters as well, although I'm skeptical of how much of Ortiz's performance this year is sustainable going forward.
But beyond that, it's pretty awful. Even with Gonzales (2B), Bart (C) and Cruz (CF) locking up those positions, they still have huge holes or question marks at a ton of other positions. Reynolds is a liability defensively in LF, but you know his bat will play so it's not the end of the world. But beyond that, there are massive question marks or just complete holes between the rest of their positions. The development of the 6 guys above (Bart, Gonzales, Cruz, Skenes, Jones and Ortiz) is the only saving grace for how many other awful developments and regressions this team had.
Suwinski went from a legitimate platoon bat to a minor leaguer. Hayes offense fell apart entirely and it's pretty clear his back will never be healthy enough for him to be a good hitter in the MLB. De La Cruz was absolutely horrendous after being acquired, to the point where I think they should just non-tender him. Bednar became an atrocious reliever. The UFA additions Cherington made were all terrible. There was far more stagnation of regression than progression, even with the massive jump Bart made.
I don't feel any reason to be optimistic about this team going into next year because there's no reason to think they're going to actually do anything to improve the team substantially. Nutting is completely fine with this team being a mediocre .500 team, it's good enough for fans to show up and he'll be making a nice profit with it. This doesn't excuse the shitty job Cherington and Shelton have done, but I just don't see any reason to think that Nutting will actually push changes when the team now is doing what he wants it to do: make him money.
Coastal Kev
There will be "I told you so's" Bet on it
Yup
They had a chance this season, everyone knew it; and Cherrington was allowed to waste the few dollars that they spent last off season.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
Don’t think this is the official ROY but it’s going to be a joke if Skenes doesn’t get it.
GilbertSeinfeld
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No, this is not the official award. Jason Kendall won this in 1996 and lost to, I think, Todd Hollandsworth, for the official award.
GilbertSeinfeld
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DJ Spinoza
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Don't feel like saying much about the team at the moment, but this seems like a possibly good sign that Haines is gone.
FWIW, I'm still probably the most neutral on Shelton being fired. I get why lots of people want it, but personally I think it's relatively pointless if Cherington isn't also fired. I'd be fine ditching Haines and trying something new in the hitting department. I think Shelton is at least good at getting the players to play for him... he just needs better players.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
Yeah I'm skeptical Shelton gets fired but Haines getting fired is an obvious thing that's going to happen. I'm a bit curious about Marin as well, does he get blamed for the bullpen imploding? Interesting to see how much change is coming to their staff.
Analysis: After 'frustrating' year, Pirates need Ke'Bryan Hayes to put back issues behind him
Ke’Bryan Hayes repeated the words “definitely frustrating” over and over, reinforcing that he wasn’t pleased with anything related to his health or performance when discussing the 2024 season. After winning the NL Gold Glove at third base and being voted team MVP, the 27-year-old Hayes was...
triblive.com
insane quotes in this one. organization’s outsourced hayes rehab to an app. what the f***
ChaosAgent
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- May 8, 2018
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Analysis: After 'frustrating' year, Pirates need Ke'Bryan Hayes to put back issues behind him
Ke’Bryan Hayes repeated the words “definitely frustrating” over and over, reinforcing that he wasn’t pleased with anything related to his health or performance when discussing the 2024 season. After winning the NL Gold Glove at third base and being voted team MVP, the 27-year-old Hayes was...
insane quotes in this one. organization’s outsourced hayes rehab to an app. what the f***
I don't read it that way. Hayes liked the doctor and chose to use the app versus an endless stream of visits back to the same guy. Going to the doctor's is a PITA.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
None of it matters. None of it. Nutting and MLB are in lock step w/keeping this team exactly where it has been. It's all deliberate.
Empoleon8771
Registered User
Marin survives but the bullpen coach gets axed as well. I still want Shelton gone but this is progress at least.
pistolpete11
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I think this is probably true, but it is funny to think "We gave this guy $80M! We can't afford doctors to fix his back, too! Just get him one of those fitness apps. How much do those cost? $9.99?!?! Isn't there a cheaper one?"
i mean the guy should at the very least have a dedicated professional working with the doctor - who they only got a second opinion from at the point hayes back was getting actively worse instead of better rather than getting a second opinion immediately - instead of looking at an app? what the heck, this seems indefensible to me
ChaosAgent
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I just don't read it that way. Hayes wanted to have a more active role in his own rehab and also wanted to travel with the team.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
Has there ever been a manager who survived into year 6 with the kind of record Shelton has? It's truly unbelievable the guy who managed the bullpen and continually called on floundering arms like Holderman and Bednar, costing us numerous games, is still employed with no end in sight.
Pittsburgh just loves holding onto coaches too long. Tomlin, Sullivan, and Shelton. At least the 1st 2 names brought titles to the city. The latter can't even win 80 games, let alone make the playoffs.
Pittsburgh just loves holding onto coaches too long. Tomlin, Sullivan, and Shelton. At least the 1st 2 names brought titles to the city. The latter can't even win 80 games, let alone make the playoffs.
ChaosAgent
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Cherington boy could just replace Shelton with Cherington in his last post. The position that actually matters.
ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
Imagine this board and basically every other one if the keyboard experts and baseball industry insiders (this is most of them) had been right and we took Dylan Crews over Paul Skenes.
ChaosAgent
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Imagine if Ben Cherington had financial resources. He may invest them in Hanley Ramirez, Pablo Sandoval and Rusney Castillo! Why not, Bob Nutting????
MrBrightside
Registered User
I mean, I was at the Blackout game and it was a hell of a night. It's also unbelievably pathetic that winning a game that, checks notes, got the Pirates into the divisional playoff round is the greatest moment of the franchise in the last 30 years.
GilbertSeinfeld
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ImporterExporter
"You're a boring old man"
I'm looking forward to the city not caving and the team not existing once the lease is up in just over half a decade.
The fact that basically no one of importance was fired, still, is the final nail in the coffin as to what this franchise represents. Numerous other teams cast away losers and yet Cherington and Shelton are on blank check contracts.
The fact that basically no one of importance was fired, still, is the final nail in the coffin as to what this franchise represents. Numerous other teams cast away losers and yet Cherington and Shelton are on blank check contracts.
