OT: Pirates Talk: That Skenes guy is okay at teh baseball

[Empoleon8771]

I think Lowe is actually a pretty good comparison for Horwitz's upside, he has a similar power profile (15-20 HRs while getting a lot of doubles) and walks a ton while also being really damn good defensively for a 1B. He's what I'm hoping Horwitz can become, although I think he strikes out a bit more while also offering a bit more HR upside.

I really like Lowe so I'm surprised to see the Rangers willing to move him for so little. Garcia isn't terrible but a cost controlled reliever for a 115 OPS+ 1B with another year of control seems very light. Even compared to what Naylor just went for, it seems like a pretty poor return.

 

[BusinessGoose]

We really just need someone who can get singles, maybe doubles.. 2+ run homers are cool, but....

How many lead off guys got stranded in scoring position cause 3 knuckleheads would strikeout, last year

 

[Empoleon8771]

We really just need someone who can get singles, maybe doubles.. 2+ run homers are cool, but....

How many lead off guys got stranded in scoring position cause 3 knuckleheads would strikeout, last year

I'm actually really curious to see the batting order for next year. I think the most ideal setup would be:

1. McCutchen
2. Horwitz
3. Reynolds
4. Cruz
5. Bart
6. Gonzales
7. OF addition
8. IKF
9. Hayes

Ideally you want McCutchen and Horwitz to get on base and give Reynolds, Cruz, Bart and Gonzales opportunities to get RBIs. The issue is that Reynolds has exclusively hit in the #2 spot in the last 2 years (and most of the last 3 years), and hitters are superstitious enough that I'd be hesitant to ask him to move to the #3 spot. That said, his best professional season was in 2021 where he primarily hit #3.

 

[Empoleon8771]

 

[DJ Spinoza]

It really does seem a lot more black and white this offseason. Horowitz may be a half decent batter if what he showed last year was real, but any of Walker, Lowe, or Naylor would be a definitively better solution at 1B because they are much more proven players.

All three were acquired at the cost of modestly valuable draft picks or alright player swaps at best. All three would have simply required paying a player somewhere in the vague vicinity of the market rate for what they bring to the table, and not even over a long period.

Horowitz is who we preferred because we are too cheap to invest in building a team to surround the lucky situation we are in with Skenes. That's just boringly stating the obvious, but it's as ironclad as ever unless we do actually make a serious investment in an outfielder, i.e., essentially sign Santander or Hernandez (another obvious: we aren't).

This might be a little bit too cut and dry, but we could have had any of these three better veterans for fairly cheap in terms of acquisition cost and then still had the prospect/player capital to swing a trade for an OF. It's not that crazy to think Ortiz might have been able to net Wilyer Abreu, for instance (someone Red Sox fans seem to wishcast being dealt for Jones, which is laughable), who would have nicely complemented a lineup that had Christian Walker in the middle of it.

I don't really see any reasonable path to upside with how things stand. It's rearranging the deck chairs and trying the same types of strategies that have repeatedly been tried, or it's worse, if what's left of the offseason is a bad Keller trade + signing 3 or 4 interchangeable depth players who won't help.

 

[MrBrightside]

Because I said I'm not wading back into the Horwitz conversation, I'm not, but DJ's post is exactly right. We spent more to get a guy whose ceiling is at or below guys we could have gotten for less capital, all because they cost more.

Looking at the projected order posted by Empoleon, something that seems to be getting ignored here is that the Pirates appear to be just rolling into 2025 with Gonzales, IKF, Hayes, and Triolo as their 2B-SS-3B grouping and almost no one seems to even be suggesting upgrading from that group. Unless Hayes somehow becomes the guy he was for a month in 2020 that led everyone to have unrealistic expectations for him, the Pirates will likely have the worst IF in baseball, at least from an offensive standpoint. No power anywhere. No speed. Average to below-average on base ability. Other than the first half of 2024, IKF has never been a plus hitter or even an average hitter. Hayes was one of the worst regulars in baseball. Gonzales may have gone from bust to a marginal regular, but he's not an impact bat. Triolo probably was the worst hitter in the sport that doesn't catch or play SS. You can't win with an infield that is this completely lacking in production.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think the issue in discussing the infield is both:

1. They're not moving Hayes and they just traded for IKF, so you just need to hope for the best with them.
2. The team is super cheap and aren't in a position to upgrade on more what I'd call "luxuries", which is what I'd argue upgrading on someone like Gonzales would be.

If this team was an actual contender with money to spend, there would be a discussion about the infield. But there are just way bigger fish to fry with this team, where they basically just need to hope that Gonzales progresses forward/Hayes bounces back/IKF can provide sufficient value at SS.

 

[BusinessGoose]

Without a doubt, there's a huge element of running it back with pretty much the same pieces and hoping for 20 more wins somehow

 

[bigdaddyk88]

Ikf needs to be a super sub not an every day player
Cutch and Horwitz can split DH
Still need 2 bats minimum

 

[DJ Spinoza]

Maybe I've just progressively gotten more jaded and less willing to put up with the same BS that we all know has basically characterized this team for most of our lives (even the good years under NH), but I do think the equation has been changed with Skenes.

As long as you have a healthy Skenes on your roster, you have the x-factor to win in the sprint competition that is the MLB playoffs, the kind of x-factor that you can't get otherwise and that is also genuinely rare across the league.

Of course, it's not the only thing that matters, as we saw with the Tigers in this past postseason, but it also isn't really all that difficult to sneak into the MLB playoffs given how it's set up.

That's both a blessing and a curse for us, since there's at least a sliver of hope that "run it back with rearranged deck chairs + Skenes year 2" is still good enough for a WC race, but also basically the entire reason that gives slight cover to the farce of not actually raising the payroll. Most teams seem relatively content to maintain their status quo, but the big thing with us is that it seems like we are not even going to try and make an appearance to bump up our payroll.

Literally one small move like spending 60M on Walker would have had everyone glowing about the Pirates and a bunch of positive PR about finally spending to build around Skenes. It would have been the bare minimum thing to do.

 

[bigdaddyk88]

Where is the 22 million spent on Taylor Perez and Champen that should buy you a impact hitter