Brisson confirms that EP40 dealt with injury which prevented him from Off-season Training.

[sandwichbird2023]

I mean, you are misframing my position entirely and strawmaning my argument as you like to do. I’m not the one whose steered discussion towards an analysis of the Canucks medical staff I’m just responding to the dubious and rather unsupported conclusion that they are terrible. But if you think that posters on HF have the requisite expertise, knowledge and experience to conclude that with some certainty then that’s fine, you probably just have a much lower threshold for evidence than I do. And again, I’m not even saying that conclusion is necessarily incorrect, only that posters are far too certain. But of course this type of nuance seems totally ignored and susceptible to strawmans.

Well the poster did admit to not having read most of your recent posts, so it is completely understandable for them to be misframing your position, especially one that is as nuanced as this.

To think that a grown man making tens of millions is just a helpless employee following everything the team doctor says and not get a second opinion if he disagree, I don't buy it. Especially a medical team with as many malpractice as people here claims, why wouldn't Petey get a second/third opinion if his knee was bothering him so much and nobody in the organization believes him? I also want to know who made the decision for him to play at the 4 Nations if he still needs to ice down his knee in between periods? I'm sure the Canucks team doctors will get blamed for that one too.

No doubt the team doctors aren't perfect, but to say Petey is this helpless person with no say and no ability to get a second opinion and just blame everything on the organization, that doesn't make sense to me either.

 

[Hodgy]

Well the poster did admit to not having read most of your recent posts, so it is completely understandable for them to be misframing your position, especially one that is as nuanced as this.

If he's going to dunk on me then he should at least frame my position correctly.

To think that a grown man making tens of millions is just a helpless employee following everything the team doctor says and not get a second opinion if he disagree, I don't buy it. Especially a medical team with as many malpractice as people here claims, why wouldn't Petey get a second/third opinion if his knee was bothering him so much and nobody in the organization believes him? I also want to know who made the decision for him to play at the 4 Nations if he still needs to ice down his knee in between periods? I'm sure the Canucks team doctors will get blamed for that one too.

No doubt the team doctors aren't perfect, but to say Petey is this helpless person with no say and no ability to get a second opinion and just blame everything on the organization, that doesn't make sense to me either.

For sure. I think its far more likely that Pettersson and the team have consulted multiple medical practitioners on the subject and are in agreement on the plan forward. Whether the plan is a good one or a bad one is kind of a separate matter, but framing it as just the Canucks medical team screwing up seems unsupported by the evidence or reason. If there were differing medical opinions on the best way forward, and Pettersson and the team didn't agree on which opinion to rely on, then I find it hard to believe that (a) Pettersson would just continue on not following the medical advice he thought was correct for more than a year and notwithstanding the fact that his play wasn't improving over that duration of time and (b) we wouldn't hear anything about this like we did in the Eichel situation.

 

[bossram]

Hockey players will chop off parts of their fingers rather than miss meaningless regular season games in a European league let alone the NHL or playoffs. That's how they are.

I think you missed the stretch of time on this forum between Jan 2024 and Sept 2024 where half of this board was convinced he was not actually injured in any way that significantly effected him in any way and it was all in his head, and that was the constant narrative on EP for a good ~6 months.


The bolded is so on brand given what we've seen from mgmt this season. @bossram has talked about this tendency too. I think you've both nailed it in this regard.

Yep. Allvin and JR's conduct with this has been pathetic. Both went on self-aggrandizing media tours with the sole purpose of defecting any blame of anything gone wrong away from themselves. It's everyone else's fault, not theirs. That's the official word.

And Tocc just literally doesn't believe injuries exist.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

If he's going to dunk on me then he should at least frame my position correctly.

For sure. I think its far more likely that Pettersson and the team have consulted multiple medical practitioners on the subject and are in agreement on the plan forward. Whether the plan is a good one or a bad one is kind of a separate matter, but framing it as just the Canucks medical team screwing up seems unsupported by the evidence or reason. If there were differing medical opinions on the best way forward, and Pettersson and the team didn't agree on which opinion to rely on, then I find it hard to believe that (a) Pettersson would just continue on not following the medical advice he thought was correct for more than a year and notwithstanding the fact that his play wasn't improving over that duration of time and (b) we wouldn't hear anything about this like we did in the Eichel situation.

Especially with an agent as powerful as Brisson, I can't see him allowing his client to continue getting run out there playing injured and taking all the blame for the production. Yes he recently came out and defend Petey, but that was after 12 months of poor play. He should've came out last spring to shut down all the heat on Petey.

Again, I'm not putting all the blame on Petey. The team (Allvin, JR and Tocchet) did not handle it well (in fact most of the blame falls on them, imo), JTM obviously did not handle the situation well, I can buy that the medical team has some blame on this too (based only on circumstantial evidence, I don't have anything concrete to back it up though), but that doesn't mean Petey doesn't have some responsibility in this whole situation either. Everybody screwed up here.

 

[racerjoe]

There is a lot of talk about not being able to speak about medical things because either A) we are not a medical practitioner or B) have all the facts the team has.

Thats such a load of crap on with what we are mainly talking about. I don't need to be an NHL player or have all the facts to look at results and so the Sabres suck and have sucked for many seasons. Sure we could look at a single season and go injuries/bad luck/coaching/or any number of things. But when you add them all together you can go yeah that isn't good.

Its also bad because you are trying to both discredit people who may be experts in the medical field by saying yeah but they don't have all the facts.

Here is what we do know, the Canucks as a team over the past however many seasons have had more bad handling of injuries than any other team. Its not even close. Can anyone seriously name a team that has had as many injury controversies as us? How many teams even have one?

While I personally don't believe this is the entire reason for Pettersson's bad play, I do think it is ground zero, and managements and coaches refusal to look at it correctly and fix it is alarming not just for Petey, but for all of our players moving forward.

 

[Hodgy]

There is a lot of talk about not being able to speak about medical things because either A) we are not a medical practitioner or B) have all the facts the team has.

Thats such a load of crap on with what we are mainly talking about. I don't need to be an NHL player or have all the facts to look at results and so the Sabres suck and have sucked for many seasons. Sure we could look at a single season and go injuries/bad luck/coaching/or any number of things. But when you add them all together you can go yeah that isn't good.

Its also bad because you are trying to both discredit people who may be experts in the medical field by saying yeah but they don't have all the facts.

Here is what we do know, the Canucks as a team over the past however many seasons have had more bad handling of injuries than any other team. Its not even close. Can anyone seriously name a team that has had as many injury controversies as us? How many teams even have one?

While I personally don't believe this is the entire reason for Pettersson's bad play, I do think it is ground zero, and managements and coaches refusal to look at it correctly and fix it is alarming not just for Petey, but for all of our players moving forward.

This is a strawman of my position. My point is that posters are not in a position to conclude with any certainty for the reasons I have given. My point isn't that posters can't discuss it, or even criticize the team's medical team. And again, my point isn't even that the medical team isn't terrible.

I really don't know why anyone is even refuting this. If you don't have the requisite expertise on a subject, and don't have the requisite information on a subject, and don't appreciate the context of the subject, then why would you drawn any concrete conclusion?

It kind of reminds me of the Zeitgeist documentary which at first blush seemed really compelling that 9/11 was an inside job. Because you can throw together a bunch of "facts" without context or expertise, and on the face of it, all these facts seem to point to an obvious conclusion. But of course, when the facts are each analyzed by competent people with an expertise in the subject, they are each easily debunked and the whole stupid theory collapses like a house of cards.

 

[racerjoe]

This is a strawman of my position. My point is that posters are not in a position to conclude with any certainty for the reasons I have given. My point isn't that posters can't discuss it, or even criticize the team's medical team. And again, my point isn't even that the medical team isn't terrible.

I really don't know why anyone is even refuting this. If you don't have the requisite expertise on a subject, and don't have the requisite information on a subject, and don't appreciate the context of the subject, then why would you drawn any concrete conclusion?

It kind of reminds me of the Zeitgeist documentary which at first blush seemed really compelling that 9/11 was an inside job. Because you can throw together a bunch of "facts" without context or expertise, and on the face of it, all these facts seem to point to an obvious conclusion. But of course, when the facts are each analyzed by competent people with an expertise in the subject, they are each easily debunked and the whole stupid theory collapses like a house of cards.

I didn't quote you...

My comment is on the group as many posters are using this as a argument.

You know where we disagree... and even where we do agree.

 

[Cancuks]

if it is an injury, it happened before his contract extension was signed. Which, in that case, if it's a career affecting injury then the Canucks should have grounds to void it.

 

[Hodgy]

if it is an injury, it happened before his contract extension was signed. Which, in that case, if it's a career affecting injury then the Canucks should have grounds to void it.

What grounds would these be? The Canucks almost certainly knew of his injury at the time they signed the contract.

 

[Lindgren]

To think that a grown man making tens of millions is just a helpless employee following everything the team doctor says and not get a second opinion if he disagree, I don't buy it. Especially a medical team with as many malpractice as people here claims, why wouldn't Petey get a second/third opinion if his knee was bothering him so much and nobody in the organization believes him? I also want to know who made the decision for him to play at the 4 Nations if he still needs to ice down his knee in between periods? I'm sure the Canucks team doctors will get blamed for that one too.

No doubt the team doctors aren't perfect, but to say Petey is this helpless person with no say and no ability to get a second opinion and just blame everything on the organization, that doesn't make sense to me either.

I follow the logic, but then I think of the case of Cody Hodgson. When he sought a second opinion for a medical issue, Alain Vigneault publicly attacked his character. When it turned out that Hodgson was right to seek that opinion, because his doctors found something very significant that the company doctors missed, there was no apology from Vigneault, or anybody else in the organization.

Canucks medical staff, I imagine, has entirely turned over since Hodgson's experience, but I doubt that the NHL culture around injuries has changed.

I rarely post about the Pettersson situation, because I think it's impossible to know what's really going on. But one of the reasons it's impossible is that within that NHL injury culture, trusting what anybody says, from the player, to the agent, to the coach, to upper management, is foolish.

 

[F A N]

If he's going to dunk on me then he should at least frame my position correctly.

For sure. I think its far more likely that Pettersson and the team have consulted multiple medical practitioners on the subject and are in agreement on the plan forward. Whether the plan is a good one or a bad one is kind of a separate matter, but framing it as just the Canucks medical team screwing up seems unsupported by the evidence or reason. If there were differing medical opinions on the best way forward, and Pettersson and the team didn't agree on which opinion to rely on, then I find it hard to believe that (a) Pettersson would just continue on not following the medical advice he thought was correct for more than a year and notwithstanding the fact that his play wasn't improving over that duration of time and (b) we wouldn't hear anything about this like we did in the Eichel situation.

Aside from misdiagnosing patients (which does happen), I think there are also different "philosophies" when it comes to medical treatments. There are some doctors who are mostly "everything looks fine just ice/heat/rest" where as some doctors are bigger believers in treatment. Even aside from that, players play through injuries that require surgery all the time.

Take the Eichel situation. Why were Buffalo so against Eichel getting disc replacement surgery? Because their medical staff thinks it's too much of risk and recommended discectomy and fusion instead? So far, it's looking like Eichel made the best decision for himself.

But ya with Petey things seem different from "he's injured". You see in players who lost a step try very hard but just couldn't do what they used to do or plays more passively because they are afraid of making a mistake. That's not Petey.

 

[Cancuks]

What grounds would these be? The Canucks almost certainly knew of his injury at the time they signed the contract.

They've claimed repeatidly that there's no injury so if he and his agent were lying and he has some sort of chronic condition that has caused his decline and is unlikely to change then they could terminate the contract. Of course it would cause an uproar with the NHLPA and maybe they'd need to settle but we've seen contract terminations before like with players fitness levels.

 

[arttk]

Yes.. Petey’s injury is 100% from 4nations and he was 100% healthy prior to that and never played in this season or last season injured.

 

[Hodgy]

View attachment 980547
Yes.. Petey’s injury is 100% from 4nations and he was 100% healthy prior to that and never played in this season or last season injured.

Why would they lie about that? I get the idea of lying about an injury that you are playing through, but lying when he sustained the injury makes no sense.

 

[arttk]

Why would they lie about that?

Because they f***ed up or they never acknowledged it and assumed it won’t get worse and then it got worse.

 

[iFan]

At this point if the plan is to keep Pettersson, we need him to heal and fully recover from these injuries. If his injuries are the reason for his play, having him play through this may hurt his confidence a ton. It’s clear something isn’t right and the Canucks need to handle it the right way.

 

[Hodgy]

Because they f***ed up or they never acknowledged it and assumed it won’t get worse and then it got worse.

This is getting to conspiracy theory levels.

They most certainly always knew about the injury. It’s definitely possible that the way the team and Pettersson decided to deal with the injury made it worse, and in hindsight, was a poor way of doing it. We don’t even know this, but it’s definitely possible. But the idea that they are now just saying he sustained it at the 4 Nations as some sort of master cover up is hilarious.

 

[Diablo2020]

Because they f***ed up or they never acknowledged it and assumed it won’t get worse and then it got worse.

At this point if the plan is to keep Pettersson, we need him to heal and fully recover from these injuries. If his injuries are the reason for his play, having him play through this may hurt his confidence a ton. It’s clear something isn’t right and the Canucks need to handle it the right way.

This whole knee saga going back to last year has taken the same timeline as the Rachel Dorrie situation has for me.

We sign an asset everyone seems happy about at first but I have questions.

Then the team basically publically bullys said asset and I think wow thats weird you dont see that everyday.

Then the team cut ties with the asset in another public way and everyone freaks out a bit.

Then it turns out the asset was nuts the whole time and its probably a blessing we avoided a longterm relationship with it.

Two years later and I dont hear a peep about Emilie C and we all moved on for the better.

Two years later and its even more apparent the asset was in fact nuts and no blame is put on the team these days.

Thats EP40 and his knee ^ at least for me.

 

[arttk]

This is getting to conspiracy theory levels.

They most certainly always knew about the injury. It’s definitely possible that the way the team and Pettersson decided to deal with the injury made it worse, and in hindsight, was a poor way of doing it. We don’t even know this, but it’s definitely possible. But the idea that they are now just saying he sustained it at the 4 Nations as some sort of master cover up is hilarious.

It’s more like you guys are in absolute denial.
I am not saying it’s a coverup, I am merely pointing out the injury they have denied being a thing suddenly became a thing conveniently right after a picture of Petey icing his knee comes out during 4 nations.

 

[Diablo2020]

It’s more like you guys are in absolute denial.
I am not saying it’s a coverup, I am merely pointing out the injury they have denied being a thing suddenly became a thing conveniently right after a picture of Petey icing his knee comes out during 4 nations.

I can post the picture again of Jesperi doing the hip drop tackle and Petey's knee twisting in place from 5 years ago again if anyone needs..

Or the Matt Gryzleck play on youtube where he obliterares Petey into the end boards shortly thereafter to miss more time with a lower body injury..



Everyone and their dentist knows Petey has a knee injury. Since his rookie year.

But the team has felt he can play hence the 80, 80 and 82 GP seasons before this.

Petey has obviously felt he can play hence the 80, 80, 82 GP seasons before this.

He just missed 6 games at Xmas starting when he left the Sharks game. There's no conspiracy to pin any blame on the tournament but I did, and do, expect more "should he have even played" talk now especially if he misses more than a game or 2.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

I can post the picture again of Jesperi doing the hip drop tackle and Petey's knee twisting in place from 5 years ago again if anyone needs..

Or the Matt Gryzleck play on youtube where he obliterares Petey into the end boards shortly thereafter to miss more time with a lower body injury..



Everyone and their dentist knows Petey has a knee injury. Since his rookie year.

But the team has felt he can play hence the 80, 80 and 82 GP seasons before this.

Petey has obviously felt he can play hence the 80, 80, 82 GP seasons before this.

He just missed 6 games at Xmas starting when he left the Sharks game. There's no conspiracy to pin any blame on the tournament but I did, and do, expect more "should he have even played" talk now especially if he misses more than a game or 2.

Thats not how knee injuries work in the 2000s.

 

[Hodgy]

It’s more like you guys are in absolute denial.
I am not saying it’s a coverup, I am merely pointing out the injury they have denied being a thing suddenly became a thing conveniently right after a picture of Petey icing his knee comes out during 4 nations.

You are saying it’s a coverup. You are saying they are covering up their gross negligence by trying to blame an injury, that occurred some time ago, on the 4 Nations. It’s a dumb theory because the knee injury has been known by the team for like a year, and has been talked about publicly several times over the past year. No one would ever believe that his knee issues were caused by the 4 Nations other than being perhaps exasperated by the 4 Nations tournament.

Frankly, we don’t even know what injury he sustained at the 4 Nations. He may have sustained an upper body injury and have nothing to do with his knee.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

You are saying it’s a coverup. You are saying they are covering up their gross negligence by trying to blame an injury, that occurred some time ago, on the 4 Nations. It’s a dumb theory because the knee injury has been known by the team for like a year, and has been talked about publicly several times over the past year. No one would ever believe that his knee issues were caused by the 4 Nations other than being perhaps exasperated by the 4 Nations tournament.

Frankly, we don’t even know what injury he sustained at the 4 Nations. He may have sustained an upper body injury and have nothing to do with his knee.

If its the knee, I dont know about coverup, but its just another miss managed injury in a long list of miss managed injury under this leadership. Im going to stop saying under this medical staff because at some point it becomes the responsibility of the guys in charge of the organisation.

• Tanner Pearson (2022-2023 Season):
  
  • Injury Details: Suffered a hand injury on November 9, 2022, initially expected to sideline him for approximately four weeks.
  • Complications: Underwent multiple surgeries due to complications, including infections, leading to his absence for the remainder of the season.
  • Player Concerns: Teammate Quinn Hughes publicly stated that the injury "wasn't handled properly," highlighting potential issues in the medical management.
    
• Ilya Mikheyev (2022-2023 Season):
  
  • Injury Details: Sustained a lower-body injury during a pre-season game in September 2022.
  • Management Issues: Despite the injury, Mikheyev continued to play, which may have aggravated his condition. He eventually left the training camp for "personal reasons," leading to criticism of the team's handling of his injury.
    
• Thatcher Demko (2023-2024 Season):
  
  • Injury Details: Demko dealt with a knee issue that emerged during the 2023-2024 playoffs.
  • Management Issues: Reports suggest that there was pressure for Demko to return prematurely for playoff games, potentially leading to further complications and prolonged recovery.
    
• Elias Pettersson (2023-2024 Season):
  
  • Injury Details: Pettersson reported a knee injury in January 2024, stating it progressively worsened throughout the season.
  • Management Issues: Internal sources within the organization disputed the severity of the injury, suggesting it was exaggerated. This discrepancy raised concerns about communication and trust between the player and medical staff.
    
• Jason Dickinson (2021-2022 Season):
  
  • Injury Details: Played a significant portion of the season with an undetected broken hand.
  • Management Issues: The injury went unnoticed by the Canucks' medical staff, leading to subpar performance and eventual trade to the Chicago Blackhawks. Upon joining Chicago, Dickinson disclosed the injury, raising questions about Vancouver's medical evaluations.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

Suddenly all the weird-ass health events in Pittsburgh in the mid 2010s make sense.

I mean Letang alone suffered multiple strokes, and chose to keep playing at the highest level he could. There’s that old saying, you can take the dog out of the fight, but you can’t take the fight out of the dog.

I quite enjoyed that write-up, Munchkin. Well thought out and reasoned.

 

[I am toxic]

Management has had some successes and some failures, but trying to cover their asses for the mismanagement of their star 1c's tendinitis by denials and trying to blame the 4 nations tournament is beyond embarrassing

Cowardice is disgusting enough, but incompetent cowardice is just putrid

and the house media that glosses over it or aids in the character assassination of Petey, you are even worse*. You know who you are. Beyond putrid

*how is that even possible?