Brisson confirms that EP40 dealt with injury which prevented him from Off-season Training.

[sandwichbird2023]

I mean, you are misframing my position entirely and strawmaning my argument as you like to do. I’m not the one whose steered discussion towards an analysis of the Canucks medical staff I’m just responding to the dubious and rather unsupported conclusion that they are terrible. But if you think that posters on HF have the requisite expertise, knowledge and experience to conclude that with some certainty then that’s fine, you probably just have a much lower threshold for evidence than I do. And again, I’m not even saying that conclusion is necessarily incorrect, only that posters are far too certain. But of course this type of nuance seems totally ignored and susceptible to strawmans.

Well the poster did admit to not having read most of your recent posts, so it is completely understandable for them to be misframing your position, especially one that is as nuanced as this.

To think that a grown man making tens of millions is just a helpless employee following everything the team doctor says and not get a second opinion if he disagree, I don't buy it. Especially a medical team with as many malpractice as people here claims, why wouldn't Petey get a second/third opinion if his knee was bothering him so much and nobody in the organization believes him? I also want to know who made the decision for him to play at the 4 Nations if he still needs to ice down his knee in between periods? I'm sure the Canucks team doctors will get blamed for that one too.

No doubt the team doctors aren't perfect, but to say Petey is this helpless person with no say and no ability to get a second opinion and just blame everything on the organization, that doesn't make sense to me either.

 

[Hodgy]

Well the poster did admit to not having read most of your recent posts, so it is completely understandable for them to be misframing your position, especially one that is as nuanced as this.

If he's going to dunk on me then he should at least frame my position correctly.

To think that a grown man making tens of millions is just a helpless employee following everything the team doctor says and not get a second opinion if he disagree, I don't buy it. Especially a medical team with as many malpractice as people here claims, why wouldn't Petey get a second/third opinion if his knee was bothering him so much and nobody in the organization believes him? I also want to know who made the decision for him to play at the 4 Nations if he still needs to ice down his knee in between periods? I'm sure the Canucks team doctors will get blamed for that one too.

No doubt the team doctors aren't perfect, but to say Petey is this helpless person with no say and no ability to get a second opinion and just blame everything on the organization, that doesn't make sense to me either.

For sure. I think its far more likely that Pettersson and the team have consulted multiple medical practitioners on the subject and are in agreement on the plan forward. Whether the plan is a good one or a bad one is kind of a separate matter, but framing it as just the Canucks medical team screwing up seems unsupported by the evidence or reason. If there were differing medical opinions on the best way forward, and Pettersson and the team didn't agree on which opinion to rely on, then I find it hard to believe that (a) Pettersson would just continue on not following the medical advice he thought was correct for more than a year and notwithstanding the fact that his play wasn't improving over that duration of time and (b) we wouldn't hear anything about this like we did in the Eichel situation.

 

[bossram]

Hockey players will chop off parts of their fingers rather than miss meaningless regular season games in a European league let alone the NHL or playoffs. That's how they are.

I think you missed the stretch of time on this forum between Jan 2024 and Sept 2024 where half of this board was convinced he was not actually injured in any way that significantly effected him in any way and it was all in his head, and that was the constant narrative on EP for a good ~6 months.


The bolded is so on brand given what we've seen from mgmt this season. @bossram has talked about this tendency too. I think you've both nailed it in this regard.

Yep. Allvin and JR's conduct with this has been pathetic. Both went on self-aggrandizing media tours with the sole purpose of defecting any blame of anything gone wrong away from themselves. It's everyone else's fault, not theirs. That's the official word.

And Tocc just literally doesn't believe injuries exist.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

If he's going to dunk on me then he should at least frame my position correctly.

For sure. I think its far more likely that Pettersson and the team have consulted multiple medical practitioners on the subject and are in agreement on the plan forward. Whether the plan is a good one or a bad one is kind of a separate matter, but framing it as just the Canucks medical team screwing up seems unsupported by the evidence or reason. If there were differing medical opinions on the best way forward, and Pettersson and the team didn't agree on which opinion to rely on, then I find it hard to believe that (a) Pettersson would just continue on not following the medical advice he thought was correct for more than a year and notwithstanding the fact that his play wasn't improving over that duration of time and (b) we wouldn't hear anything about this like we did in the Eichel situation.

Especially with an agent as powerful as Brisson, I can't see him allowing his client to continue getting run out there playing injured and taking all the blame for the production. Yes he recently came out and defend Petey, but that was after 12 months of poor play. He should've came out last spring to shut down all the heat on Petey.

Again, I'm not putting all the blame on Petey. The team (Allvin, JR and Tocchet) did not handle it well (in fact most of the blame falls on them, imo), JTM obviously did not handle the situation well, I can buy that the medical team has some blame on this too (based only on circumstantial evidence, I don't have anything concrete to back it up though), but that doesn't mean Petey doesn't have some responsibility in this whole situation either. Everybody screwed up here.

 

[racerjoe]

There is a lot of talk about not being able to speak about medical things because either A) we are not a medical practitioner or B) have all the facts the team has.

Thats such a load of crap on with what we are mainly talking about. I don't need to be an NHL player or have all the facts to look at results and so the Sabres suck and have sucked for many seasons. Sure we could look at a single season and go injuries/bad luck/coaching/or any number of things. But when you add them all together you can go yeah that isn't good.

Its also bad because you are trying to both discredit people who may be experts in the medical field by saying yeah but they don't have all the facts.

Here is what we do know, the Canucks as a team over the past however many seasons have had more bad handling of injuries than any other team. Its not even close. Can anyone seriously name a team that has had as many injury controversies as us? How many teams even have one?

While I personally don't believe this is the entire reason for Pettersson's bad play, I do think it is ground zero, and managements and coaches refusal to look at it correctly and fix it is alarming not just for Petey, but for all of our players moving forward.

 

[Hodgy]

There is a lot of talk about not being able to speak about medical things because either A) we are not a medical practitioner or B) have all the facts the team has.

Thats such a load of crap on with what we are mainly talking about. I don't need to be an NHL player or have all the facts to look at results and so the Sabres suck and have sucked for many seasons. Sure we could look at a single season and go injuries/bad luck/coaching/or any number of things. But when you add them all together you can go yeah that isn't good.

Its also bad because you are trying to both discredit people who may be experts in the medical field by saying yeah but they don't have all the facts.

Here is what we do know, the Canucks as a team over the past however many seasons have had more bad handling of injuries than any other team. Its not even close. Can anyone seriously name a team that has had as many injury controversies as us? How many teams even have one?

While I personally don't believe this is the entire reason for Pettersson's bad play, I do think it is ground zero, and managements and coaches refusal to look at it correctly and fix it is alarming not just for Petey, but for all of our players moving forward.

This is a strawman of my position. My point is that posters are not in a position to conclude with any certainty for the reasons I have given. My point isn't that posters can't discuss it, or even criticize the team's medical team. And again, my point isn't even that the medical team isn't terrible.

I really don't know why anyone is even refuting this. If you don't have the requisite expertise on a subject, and don't have the requisite information on a subject, and don't appreciate the context of the subject, then why would you drawn any concrete conclusion?

It kind of reminds me of the Zeitgeist documentary which at first blush seemed really compelling that 9/11 was an inside job. Because you can throw together a bunch of "facts" without context or expertise, and on the face of it, all these facts seem to point to an obvious conclusion. But of course, when the facts are each analyzed by competent people with an expertise in the subject, they are each easily debunked and the whole stupid theory collapses like a house of cards.

 

[racerjoe]

This is a strawman of my position. My point is that posters are not in a position to conclude with any certainty for the reasons I have given. My point isn't that posters can't discuss it, or even criticize the team's medical team. And again, my point isn't even that the medical team isn't terrible.

I really don't know why anyone is even refuting this. If you don't have the requisite expertise on a subject, and don't have the requisite information on a subject, and don't appreciate the context of the subject, then why would you drawn any concrete conclusion?

It kind of reminds me of the Zeitgeist documentary which at first blush seemed really compelling that 9/11 was an inside job. Because you can throw together a bunch of "facts" without context or expertise, and on the face of it, all these facts seem to point to an obvious conclusion. But of course, when the facts are each analyzed by competent people with an expertise in the subject, they are each easily debunked and the whole stupid theory collapses like a house of cards.

I didn't quote you...

My comment is on the group as many posters are using this as a argument.

You know where we disagree... and even where we do agree.

 

[Cancuks]

if it is an injury, it happened before his contract extension was signed. Which, in that case, if it's a career affecting injury then the Canucks should have grounds to void it.

 

[Hodgy]

if it is an injury, it happened before his contract extension was signed. Which, in that case, if it's a career affecting injury then the Canucks should have grounds to void it.

What grounds would these be? The Canucks almost certainly knew of his injury at the time they signed the contract.

 

[Lindgren]

To think that a grown man making tens of millions is just a helpless employee following everything the team doctor says and not get a second opinion if he disagree, I don't buy it. Especially a medical team with as many malpractice as people here claims, why wouldn't Petey get a second/third opinion if his knee was bothering him so much and nobody in the organization believes him? I also want to know who made the decision for him to play at the 4 Nations if he still needs to ice down his knee in between periods? I'm sure the Canucks team doctors will get blamed for that one too.

No doubt the team doctors aren't perfect, but to say Petey is this helpless person with no say and no ability to get a second opinion and just blame everything on the organization, that doesn't make sense to me either.

I follow the logic, but then I think of the case of Cody Hodgson. When he sought a second opinion for a medical issue, Alain Vigneault publicly attacked his character. When it turned out that Hodgson was right to seek that opinion, because his doctors found something very significant that the company doctors missed, there was no apology from Vigneault, or anybody else in the organization.

Canucks medical staff, I imagine, has entirely turned over since Hodgson's experience, but I doubt that the NHL culture around injuries has changed.

I rarely post about the Pettersson situation, because I think it's impossible to know what's really going on. But one of the reasons it's impossible is that within that NHL injury culture, trusting what anybody says, from the player, to the agent, to the coach, to upper management, is foolish.

 

[F A N]

If he's going to dunk on me then he should at least frame my position correctly.

For sure. I think its far more likely that Pettersson and the team have consulted multiple medical practitioners on the subject and are in agreement on the plan forward. Whether the plan is a good one or a bad one is kind of a separate matter, but framing it as just the Canucks medical team screwing up seems unsupported by the evidence or reason. If there were differing medical opinions on the best way forward, and Pettersson and the team didn't agree on which opinion to rely on, then I find it hard to believe that (a) Pettersson would just continue on not following the medical advice he thought was correct for more than a year and notwithstanding the fact that his play wasn't improving over that duration of time and (b) we wouldn't hear anything about this like we did in the Eichel situation.

Aside from misdiagnosing patients (which does happen), I think there are also different "philosophies" when it comes to medical treatments. There are some doctors who are mostly "everything looks fine just ice/heat/rest" where as some doctors are bigger believers in treatment. Even aside from that, players play through injuries that require surgery all the time.

Take the Eichel situation. Why were Buffalo so against Eichel getting disc replacement surgery? Because their medical staff thinks it's too much of risk and recommended discectomy and fusion instead? So far, it's looking like Eichel made the best decision for himself.

But ya with Petey things seem different from "he's injured". You see in players who lost a step try very hard but just couldn't do what they used to do or plays more passively because they are afraid of making a mistake. That's not Petey.

 

[Cancuks]

What grounds would these be? The Canucks almost certainly knew of his injury at the time they signed the contract.

They've claimed repeatidly that there's no injury so if he and his agent were lying and he has some sort of chronic condition that has caused his decline and is unlikely to change then they could terminate the contract. Of course it would cause an uproar with the NHLPA and maybe they'd need to settle but we've seen contract terminations before like with players fitness levels.