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OT: Pirates Talk: That Skenes guy is okay at teh baseball

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I think DJ was fair in his take on Cherington (not liking him) while accepting that he's greatly hamstrung by Nutting/MLB, which every person needs to accept as fact before casting blame.

I still maintain that Shelton is the biggest issue at the ML level if we're talking non-players. When we hired Hurdle, he had a track record. There was some winning along the way, at the ML level. Shelton was a nobody, in the grand scheme. We could have canned him 2 offseasons ago and made a real push at Bochy. Probably wasn't even considered and if it was, Nutting/MLB shot it down because "financial". And despite having an abysmal record over half a decade, he's still employed.

Cherington is a WS winner and the following WS won by Boston was largely done with players he brought in. That's a hellova big gap between he and Shelton.

Cherington, and I'll admit I've soured on him (still less so than others given his shackles) has done a largely fantastic job with the pitching development. Almost completely the opposite on the offensive side of things. And at the end of the day, he hired Shelton and obviously feels a strong attachment. Regardless, Shelton has not proven a damn thing in 5 years. Numerous managers have been canned, on big and small market teams with better resumes over that time frame. So why not here?

BC's been quite inconsistent with player swaps. Same story in FA, though that will happen given you're always scraping the absolute bottom of the barrel and he's made some of those budget players work.

I appreciate a quick jump out of the gate, trying to add to the offense, even if I have my reservations about the trade itself.

I shudder to think what we'll get back if Jones or Keller are dealt and the news that payroll won't increase a dime, even with Skenes, just further cements we are not witnessing a serious org.
 
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At least we got some new blood as hitting coach and someone new with the pitching staff

Shelton 4D chess'd himself into a few wins... And a ton of losses, last year

But I'm not quite sure if it matters he's here if our guys have some better strategy behind the plate...
 
Do you guys think we will ever see a Salary Cap in our lifetime? I mean people have to be tired of seeing the same teams buy World Series every FA.
 
Emmanuel Valdez, Buccos problems are solved.
www.mlbtraderumors.com

Pirates Acquire Enmanuel Valdez

The Pirates and Red Sox announced a trade that will see infielder Enmanuel Valdez head to Pittsburgh in exchange for …
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BusinessGoose said:
Not until MLB starts losing money from lowered sports betting interest

... So.

No
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Only the smaller markets which are in the majority could force one, but they haven't. Why not? Because they invested millions and are making billions.

It's no longer a sport, over half of the teams first interest is maximizing profit, with the Pirates being the most transparent with their intentions.
 
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Ulf5 said:
Light hitting too and small in stature. But he has position flexibility!
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This isn't even close to what Valdez is.

He's a power hitter that is awful defensively. He was once a good prospect and the Pirates are getting him as a sort of Joe/Olivares reclamation project. Skeptical it pans out but he has a .475 SLG in the minors, so it's a worthwhile gamble.

It will probably be more like Olivares than Joe, but if they can get a useful bench bat/pinch hitter out of him, I'll be happy.
 
Empoleon8771 said:
This isn't even close to what Valdez is.

He's a power hitter that is awful defensively. He was once a good prospect and the Pirates are getting him as a sort of Joe/Olivares reclamation project. Skeptical it pans out but he has a .475 SLG in the minors, so it's a worthwhile gamble.

It will probably be more like Olivares than Joe, but if they can get a useful bench bat/pinch hitter out of him, I'll be happy.
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DFA in 10, 9, 8....
 
Empoleon8771 said:
They got him for a 19th round pick from last year and he might have some MLB power hitting upside. I genuinely do not see a reason to be mad about the move.
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Meh, similar mlb games, slg and ops as Gonzales. More of the same.
 
It's basically just throwing shit at the wall. We also did it with Nick Solak on a minor league deal. You might fall backwards into a useable MLB part-time player with one of these guys, but the reason we are able to churn through so many of these guys is because the depth is so bad and we aren't really generating any internal guys to throw at the wall.

It's all sort of whatever until we make any kind of major move. We'll be the same kinda good at times, but ultimately somewhere between just outside the fringe of the WC race or just outside the top-5 or so lottery positions.

The options for optimism now are basically 1) hope Horowitz not only maintains what he showed last year but somehow doubles his power; 2) hope for Hayes back from the time (if it were a move, it would be the remake of a remake of a remake); or 3) I guess if you want to get weird, a total renaissance for Henry Davis, even though he still doesn't really have a position.
 
At this point, I think the only way the Pirates are going to get a notable upgrade to their roster (namely OF) is by trading Keller. They only have around $15-$17 million to fill out the roster with what Nutting is allowing them to do, and they want to add both a reliever and OFer with that money. Sending Keller out for an OFer (ideally one that is cheaper) can at least address one of those spots and you can likely get a Gibson/Heany type of FA pitcher to replace Keller for less money.

The best case scenario is pulling off someone like Kjerstad for Keller because it gives them a lot of money both now and going forward, but even if it's more of an equal salary swap, I think they're in a better position to make a good roster with $17 million to spend on a starter and reliever than $17 million to spend on a LFer and a reliever.
 
Empoleon8771 said:
At this point, I think the only way the Pirates are going to get a notable upgrade to their roster (namely OF) is by trading Keller. They only have around $15-$17 million to fill out the roster with what Nutting is allowing them to do, and they want to add both a reliever and OFer with that money. Sending Keller out for an OFer (ideally one that is cheaper) can at least address one of those spots and you can likely get a Gibson/Heany type of FA pitcher to replace Keller for less money.

The best case scenario is pulling off someone like Kjerstad for Keller because it gives them a lot of money both now and going forward, but even if it's more of an equal salary swap, I think they're in a better position to make a good roster with $17 million to spend on a starter and reliever than $17 million to spend on a LFer and a reliever.
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Reports say they want a cost controlled OF for Keller and i don’t think they worry about a free agent starter because Bubba and Ashcraft will be up early
I really hope they use the 22 million saved from Taylor Perez and Champen for a real hitter to go with the guy they get in a Keller trade
 
bigdaddyk88 said:
Reports say they want a cost controlled OF for Keller and i don’t think they worry about a free agent starter because Bubba and Ashcraft will be up early
I really hope they use the 22 million saved from Taylor Perez and Champen for a real hitter to go with the guy they get in a Keller trade
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Nah they absolutely need to sign a FA starter to replace Keller, at least a 1 year deal for someone. Even if Oviedo returns to 2023 form next year, which would be a lot to ask of him after TJS, he shouldn't be above a #4 starter. They need to bring in another mid rotation guy if they trade Keller, even if it's just another Perez/Gonzales type of guy.

If they're trading Keller for a cost controlled OF like Kjerstad, they'll have plenty of money to add a starter to replace him. Trading Keller for Kjerstad and signing Heaney to a $15 million deal is about a wash with money, and I think their hitters (minus DH) and SPs would be set with doing that. They'd have like $15 million left to sign McCutchen and then bring in a high leverage bullpen arm.

I think the ideal scenario I'd be shooting for is:

1. Keller for Kjerstad (saves $15 million)
2. Sign Heaney to a 2 year, $30 million deal
3. Sign either Scott or Hoffman to a 2 year, $24 million deal
4. Bring McCutchen back for the same 1 year, $5 million deal

That's adding a total of $17 million, which is about what they'd need to add to meet payroll from last year.
 
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Empoleon8771 said:
Nah they absolutely need to sign a FA starter to replace Keller, at least a 1 year deal for someone. Even if Oviedo returns to 2023 form next year, which would be a lot to ask of him after TJS, he shouldn't be above a #4 starter. They need to bring in another mid rotation guy if they trade Keller, even if it's just another Perez/Gonzales type of guy.

If they're trading Keller for a cost controlled OF like Kjerstad, they'll have plenty of money to add a starter to replace him. Trading Keller for Kjerstad and signing Heany to a $15 million deal is about a wash with money, and I think their hitters (minus DH) and SPs would be set with doing that. They'd have like $15 million left to sign McCutchen and then bring in a high leverage bullpen arm.
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Ben already said they weren’t bringing in a high leverage pen arm when interviewed on mlb network last week
 


Looks like Luzardo to the Cubs is happening. I understand what the Cubs are doing but I honestly don't think they're looking like they'll be anything special, they'll be a "one and done" in the playoffs IMO.

I'm curious to see how their lineup ends up looking. They're obviously trying to get rid of Bellinger, but I think moving Suzuki also makes a lot of sense. They already have Happ, Crow-Armstrong and Tucker as their OF for next year, so whichever one of Bellinger or Suzuki that is back next year has to play DH. That said, Suzuki is also far worse defensively than I thought he was, so maybe him playing DH wouldn't be all that big of an issue. I had always thought of Suzuki as a plus RFer defensively, but I guess not.
 
The situation is pretty bizarre at this point, and though I don't really think this is intentional (it seems a step too cynical), the fact that a lot of the positions are kind of spoken for also makes wish-casting an exact upgrade somewhat challenging. I'm not opposed to having Cutch back, but add in that he basically occupies the DH-spot part time and it's even more of a challenge.

I agree with E that Kjerstad feels somewhere in the vicinity of the right shot to try and take, but if Baltimore were even willing to move him (I'm not totally sold, it hasn't been how they've operated, though they obviously need a starter), I still worry about the ripple effect of losing Keller. Baseball-wise, it would shred an absolute anchor who you can depend on for a big quantity of quality innings and who would be a starter for a playoff run. Non-baseball wise, it would also of course look pretty suspect given that he was just signed to an extension and then is dealt before the bulk of the deal is actually paid.

I guess if we just suspend the baseball speculation side of things for the moment, it would only be feasible in the event of re-allocating the salary directly onto one single offensive upgrade in addition, as others are saying. While it would still be operating from within self-imposed austerity (i.e., I think we all agree that we should just be trying to sign as good of a single offensive option as possible and not move Keller), at least it would be somewhat defensible as a way to try and solve the team's major problem, basically hoping you can cobble a good enough rotation to get through the year ok.

After all, the big thing not to forget -- even though, again obviously, it's just meaningless and empty hope -- is that in the event this team got into the playoffs, it has an immediate cheat code as long as Skenes is healthy. Anything could happen, but that's basically about as good as you can hope for if you do get to the playoffs.


In any case, beyond the cynicism we should all feel about the fact that the approach at best seems to just recycle what we've been doing before, I just don't get how to look at it. For example, one slightly risky player who could provide the upside we need is Robert, but then Cruz's move to CF is interrupted -- hypothetically we could just try him in LF, and I am sure Robert could handle it, but that whole situation is already tenuous enough. SS is not really solved with IKF being there, but IKF is going to play every day in some capacity and there's no way a starting SS that we could bring in would be an offensive upgrade.

And this is all just taking for granted Horowitz as everyday 1B, even though the numbers suggest a strong side platoon guy.

There's still time for things to shake out, but there doesn't seem to be much urgency or much of a clear plan either. I can talk myself into Horowitz being useful, but we needed at minimum 1 offensive anchor and he's not really it. One thing I am going to be pretty interested in seeing is if Naylor is traded and if so, then for what. While he will cost more and is controllable for less, he has the power impact we need.
 
I want to make a joke of "I hope you're excited for Alex Verdugo in LF to start next year" but I feel like that's even expecting too much out of this team.
 
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