Phoenix XXIV: How many twists does the scriptwriter have left?

[bleuet]

What about: Running the marathon without shoes.

Or: Close to the edge

If CoG sues, what about: Deep space XXV (instead of 9)

 

[Whileee]

McCain is a STH who sits about 10 rows above me. I think he will be very cautious in his comments (if he makes them public). Privately, I am told he is pissed at the GWI and the position they are taking along with the tactic they chose to employ.

Sure, I expect that of fans. Objectivity is not a strong suit of hockey fans, as I expect that we have seen on these Boards over the preceding months.

I was pointing out the irony of having a prominent Republican advocating for governments to come to the aid of private businesses and businessmen.

 

[cbcwpg]

So how can the CoG sue the GWI for $500M in damages for the team leaving, when in fact the team hasn't gone anywhere? And other than the Mayor's word, where is the documentation backing up the $500M claim?

 

[Evil Doctor]

Or: Close to the edge

Awww, to be in England in the summertime with my love....

 

[bleuet]

Correct!

 

[Whileee]

I said they would not sue even though they could sue to enjoin the sale of the bonds if their real intention was to protect the taxpayer. I was 100% right on that point. I also said the bonds would sell. I may be proven wrong on that, and I'm sure you will remind me when the time comes. I never said they were a non issue. Please cite to where I made that statement. In fact, I have acknoledged that the GWI's actions were driving up the interest rate on the bonds.

This suit was expected. You don't basically beg someone to sue you if you're not intent on having the issue resolved in the courts. The NHL knew this, and the suit may actually make it easier to convince buyers to purchase the bonds.

Really? I am now starting to see the logic. For selling the bonds, it is:

Rumours of a lawsuit << Letter expressing the possibility of a lawsuit << Actual lawsuit.

So I guess that the GWI will be sued for tortious interference because they didn't go all the way to help the COG sell the bonds.

 

[goyotes]

I would argue that the city has create their own financial hardships.



It's possible that the lack of interest on the part of investors is that they feel the bonds could lose their tax exemption since they benefit a private party. If so, it has nothing to do with GWI and there's probably no rate that would be sufficient for that risk... the bond holder could lose 20% or more if that happens.

Selling the bonds at 9% I think presumes the certainty the bonds will lose tax-emempt status. Without the GWI cloud, the bonds would have sold at around 6%. That is a 33% increase in yield. If the bonds maintain a tax-exempt status at 9%, that is an absolutely fantastic investment.

 

[AllByDesign]

So how can the CoG sue the GWI for $500M in damages for the team leaving, when in fact the team hasn't gone anywhere? And other than the Mayor's word, where is the documentation backing up the $500M claim?

The Mayor has used this figure anecdotally since last spring. There have been no public studies published to back her claim. This has been my sore spot with the mayor and her council. By using such high estimates it shows that the statement is used as a tool for the justification of their accused subsidies, rather than an actual platform from which proclaim a benefit for the citizens.

Had the city done an actual cost/benefit analysis they may be surprised with the results. If this deal completely dies, which by some accounts I beleieve it has, they would at least have a contingency plan on how to deal with their arena without an anchor tennant. Now it is very presumptious of may to state that they have no contingency plan... they may very well and have kept it under wraps.

 

[bleuet]

Sorry I got it now: Phoenix XXV: Tea for two

 

[Jesus Christ Horburn]

IMO, if COG ever actually files this supposed lawsuit, I think GWI will immediately file a counter suit.

 

[ps241]

Since it appears resolution is on the horizon... should the next thread be

Phx XXV:"The End of the Imminence"?[/ b]

this would be my vote for the early favorite cue the Don Henley sound track in the background

lets dig deeper into the lyrics shall we:

if things don't work out for the Yotes then this might apply

When "happily ever after" fails
And we've been poisoned by these fairy tales
The lawyers dwell on small details
Since daddy had to fly

cuing the move to Winnipeg:

But I know a place where we can go
That's still untouched by man

But I know a place where we can go
And wash away this sin

and of coarse as Glendale prevails and the Yotes are saved for the gritty STH's RR and goyotes and the Winnipeg faithfuls hopes are dashed yet again and the pain of 15 years looks to be permanent we take solace in Don's comforting words as we bid goodbye yet again to our former Jets and wind down the thread (OK that part is a stretch)

Who knows how long this will last
Now we've come so far, so fast
But, somewhere back there in the dust
That same small team in each of us
I need to remember this
So baby give me just one kiss
And let me take a long last look
Before we say good bye (again)


this is the end....Phx XXV:"The End of the Imminence"?[/ b][/QUOTE]

 

[AllByDesign]

To sue or not to sue, that is the.... hey, where did the hockey team go?

 

[HamiltonFan]

The expansion to the South was well under way before G.Bettman took over at the helm. It was feuled by owners chasing the expansion fee without alot of foresight which was typical of most decisions from the Ziegler era.
WRT to Balsillie and PHX it was not anti-Canada as many are so willing to suggest but about the ability of a private business to determine where it's members operate and how they gian admission to the club. Had JB purchased a struggling club and run it in a honest and forth right manner , IMO he would've been able to relocate the team after a prerequisite amount of time. He didn't follow the accepted practices of the NHL and now is on the outside looking in.

A common, yet sadly flawed theory. You really think that Balsillie didn't first approach the liar bettman behind his famous closed door and try to do this whole thing the 'proper' way? He just simply burst onto the scene with a guns ablazin', take no prisoners approach? How incredibly naive you are.

 

[goyotes]

Really? I am now starting to see the logic. For selling the bonds, it is:

Rumours of a lawsuit << Letter expressing the possibility of a lawsuit << Actual lawsuit.

So I guess that the GWI will be sued for tortious interference because they didn't go all the way to help the COG sell the bonds.

Sorry, I failed to add that part of what the CoG is likely going to ask for is a declaration that the bonds are tax-exempt as the transaction is constitutional. At 9%, I am getting basically the same yield as tax-exempt bonds. The fact that the CoG is going to ask a court to confirm the tax-exempt status makes the purchase of the bonds at 9% a windfall to investors. Ergo, the suit may actually help sell the bonds. It is not the same as what the GWI has continued to do by preventing the sale of the bonds at a reasonable interest rate by threatening a lawsuit.

 

[goyotes]

IMO, if COG ever actually files this supposed lawsuit, I think GWI will immediately file a counter suit.

If the CoG suit includes a claim for declaratory relief, the GWI may counter-sue, but it will probably be dismissed as the issue will already have been presented to the court by the CoG.

Perhaps there is another cause of action that the GWI will sue out on, maybe malicious prosecution or abuse of process. Those technically aren't ripe, and likely subject to dismissal as well, until the CoG loses on the merits.

 

[cbcwpg]

If someone really wants to see how little this hockey team means to the CoG;

Phone up Mayor Scruggs today and offer $670M ($500M to the CoG + $170M to the NHL) to buy the team as long as it can be moved. I'll bet anyone here, that the Mayor will say "sold" and "where do I ship the players to?" so fast it will make your hair fall out.

This has never been about a hockey team!

 

[Fidel Astro]

For those of you who would pooh pooh (a legal term) the tortious interference claim, I submit that based only upon the evidence available, I would take that case on a contingent fee. I have prosecuted cases that I didn't believe were as strong as this case. Additionally, the damages are enormous and if an E & O or D & O carrier comes in to defend the claim, they are going to look to do whatever is necessary to resolve the exposure. If the GWI is wrong on the constitutionality of the transaction, I believe they get hammered for their conduct.

What if they're right on that issue? What happens if the CoG sues based on the tortious interference thing and it comes out in court that yes, GWI was correct about the sale's constitutional problems? I'm assuming that stops the sale cold, but would there be any kind of negative results for the CoG? (I dunno, maybe a fine or something for wasting the court's time?)

The GWI and the CoG will be in litigation for another perhaps another year, and relocationists will continue to wait for the Coyotes' time to run out. We will be on Thread 150 when a sudden end will come to the discussion as the NHL and TSNE announce either; 1) Atlanta is relocating to Winnipeg, or 2) the NHL is granting expansion teams to Winnipeg and KC, so the owners can cash in on the half billion dollars in new team expansion fees.

The Coyotes' time will eventually run out, and it will be sooner rather than later. If I was a Coyotes fan, and my team was "saved" based on a parking lot scheme of questionable legality, I would not be very confident about the franchise's future. If Hulsizer manages to pull this **** off, I give him five years, tops, before everything comes crumbling down again.

Merely finding a new owner doesn't address all of the problems of Phoenix as a hockey market, and as others have mentioned, increased ticket costs and parking fees are not going to encourage an already uninterested public to show up to games. You're right, though... if the Coyotes stay in Phoenix, it might well be the Thrashers moving to Winnipeg, and by the time the Coyotes need to be relocated, there might not be any other city ready to take them in. Maybe the team will have to fold.

 

[PitbulI]

Goyotes, it's about time that no matter what, just like I'm a Jets fan, you are a Coyotes fan and have blinders on for any other reason. That's what being a die hard fan is and I can understand that.

Plain and simple. A hockey team in the desert is a disaster. Never made a dollar since moving there and attendance has been dropping for years. The new car small wore off on Jobing.com arena and it's showing.

IMO, Bettman is anti Canadian.

OMG. Yes, everything the COG does is smart and proper and right in the law. GWI is so wrong in everything they do.

 

[goyotes]

If someone really wants to see how little this hockey team means to the CoG;

Phone up Mayor Scruggs today and offer $670M ($500M to the CoG + $170M to the NHL) to buy the team as long as it can be moved. I'll bet anyone here, that the Mayor will say "sold" and "where do I ship the players to?" so fast it will make your hair fall out.

This has never been about a hockey team!

You are correct sir! Aside from a small fan base and some die hard fans, this has been about revenue to the CoG, and the right to run its business for the NHL. In between, a small fan base in Phoenix gets kicked in the teeth, and a large and passionate fan base in Winnipeg gets used.

If anything, this is decided not about a hockey team or hockey fans.

 

[MaskedSonja]

this would be my vote for the early favorite cue the Don Henley sound track in the background

lets dig deeper into the lyrics shall we:

if things don't work out for the Yotes then this might apply

When "happily ever after" fails
And we've been poisoned by these fairy tales
The lawyers dwell on small details
Since daddy had to fly

cuing the move to Winnipeg:

But I know a place where we can go
That's still untouched by man

But I know a place where we can go
And wash away this sin

and of coarse as Glendale prevails and the Yotes are saved for the gritty STH's RR and goyotes and the Winnipeg faithfuls hopes are dashed yet again and the pain of 15 years looks to be permanent we take solace in Don's comforting words as we bid goodbye yet again to our former Jets and wind down the thread (OK that part is a stretch)

Who knows how long this will last
Now we've come so far, so fast
But, somewhere back there in the dust
That same small team in each of us
I need to remember this
So baby give me just one kiss
And let me take a long last look
Before we say good bye (again)


this is the end....Phx XXV:"The End of the Imminence"?[/ b]

[/QUOTE]



One of my favorite songs.

 

[cbcwpg]

The Mayor has used this figure anecdotally since last spring. There have been no public studies published to back her claim. This has been my sore spot with the mayor and her council. By using such high estimates it shows that the statement is used as a tool for the justification of their accused subsidies, rather than an actual platform from which proclaim a benefit for the citizens.

Had the city done an actual cost/benefit analysis they may be surprised with the results. If this deal completely dies, which by some accounts I beleieve it has, they would at least have a contingency plan on how to deal with their arena without an anchor tennant. Now it is very presumptious of may to state that they have no contingency plan... they may very well and have kept it under wraps.

I agree on this. If the CoG was say claiming $487,123,087.56 then I could say someone actually figured out what the losses are, but when the Mayor just says $500M, you know she's just pulling the number out of her _____.

 

[peter sullivan]

this would be my vote for the early favorite cue the Don Henley sound track in the background

lets dig deeper into the lyrics shall we:

if things don't work out for the Yotes then this might apply

When "happily ever after" fails
And we've been poisoned by these fairy tales
The lawyers dwell on small details
Since daddy had to fly

cuing the move to Winnipeg:

But I know a place where we can go
That's still untouched by man

But I know a place where we can go
And wash away this sin

and of coarse as Glendale prevails and the Yotes are saved for the gritty STH's RR and goyotes and the Winnipeg faithfuls hopes are dashed yet again and the pain of 15 years looks to be permanent we take solace in Don's comforting words as we bid goodbye yet again to our former Jets and wind down the thread (OK that part is a stretch)

Who knows how long this will last
Now we've come so far, so fast
But, somewhere back there in the dust
That same small team in each of us
I need to remember this
So baby give me just one kiss
And let me take a long last look
Before we say good bye (again)


this is the end....Phx XXV:"The End of the Imminence"?[/ b]

that's got my vote!...almost made me weep.

 

[goyotes]

What if they're right on that issue? What happens if the CoG sues based on the tortious interference thing and it comes out in court that yes, GWI was correct about the sale's constitutional problems? I'm assuming that stops the sale cold, but would there be any kind of negative results for the CoG? (I dunno, maybe a fine or something for wasting the court's time?)



The Coyotes' time will eventually run out, and it will be sooner rather than later. If I was a Coyotes fan, and my team was "saved" based on a parking lot scheme of questionable legality, I would not be very confident about the franchise's future. If Hulsizer manages to pull this **** off, I give him five years, tops, before everything comes crumbling down again.

Merely finding a new owner doesn't address all of the problems of Phoenix as a hockey market, and as others have mentioned, increased ticket costs and parking fees are not going to encourage an already uninterested public to show up to games. You're right, though... if the Coyotes stay in Phoenix, it might well be the Thrashers moving to Winnipeg, and by the time the Coyotes need to be relocated, there might not be any other city ready to take them in. Maybe the team will have to fold.

Everything you said may be correct. I will not attempt to plead the case for why hockey hasn't worked well thus far in Phoenix. I simply point to other, non-traditional markets where hockey has been a relative success, LA, San Jose, Texas. Our state's climate has nothing to do with whether the team is successful. If that were true, the Islanders would be a success. Sometimes, a bad business model carried on for years results in a bad business.

Having said that, if this deal is unconstitutional and if that is what it took to get someone to purchase the team and keep it hear, than I agree with you it is just a matter of time. So, let's come back to this debate in say...thread 1000 in five years.

 

[OthmarAmmann]

Selling the bonds at 9% I think presumes the certainty the bonds will lose tax-emempt status. Without the GWI cloud, the bonds would have sold at around 6%. That is a 33% increase in yield. If the bonds maintain a tax-exempt status at 9%, that is an absolutely fantastic investment.

And if they don't, then they fall in value by 33%. Regardless of the yield at issue.

Sorry, I failed to add that part of what the CoG is likely going to ask for is a declaration that the bonds are tax-exempt as the transaction is constitutional. At 9%, I am getting basically the same yield as tax-exempt bonds. The fact that the CoG is going to ask a court to confirm the tax-exempt status makes the purchase of the bonds at 9% a windfall to investors. Ergo, the suit may actually help sell the bonds. It is not the same as what the GWI has continued to do by preventing the sale of the bonds at a reasonable interest rate by threatening a lawsuit.

I'll point out that tax exemption is determined by the Internal Revenue Code, not the constitution of Arizona.

 

[Dado]

Since it appears resolution is on the horizon... should the next thread be

Phx XXV: "The End of the Imminence"?

Premature Imminence.

Phiagra.