Phoenix XXIV: How many twists does the scriptwriter have left?

  • PLEASE check any bookmark on all devices. IF you see a link pointing to mandatory.com DELETE it Please use this URL https://forums.hfboards.com/
Status
Not open for further replies.

yotesreign

Registered User
Jan 26, 2009
1,570
0
Goldwater Blvd
IANAL but I expect it will be ridiculously easy for the City to find witnesses to testify in court to the chilling effect the interfering Goldwater letters had on their prospective business deals with the city.

Empty-netter.

I just hope Glendale sues their collective ashes.
 

Whileee

Registered User
May 29, 2010
46,440
34,525
To repeat: the parking rights belong to the City if the lease is renewed. If not, the arena manager will never again own them. They renounce them under the MH/CoG transaction.

I would be prepared to acknowledge a small discount in the residual value of the rights at this time to reflect the small likelihood that a team which will have been in PHO for 45 years by then, AFTER Hulsizer will have likely been compelled to buy the arena for $40M, might move. Such a discount would be very small, though. Vanishingly small. I suppose it is possible that PHO could be a ghost town in 2041.



But I did re-engage!! :amazed:

Did you not read my reply from yesterday evening? It was a juicy one! ;)

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p=31444511#post31444511

Enjoy.



I followed your posts closely at the time (as you were dominating the discussion at the time, it would be hard to follow the conversation without reading your views), and I recall no such explanation, and certainly recall nothing of any empirical nature. Is my memory faulty, or did I miss something?



I referenced your theories (albeit not mentioning you by name) in a previous post discussing how this meme became the conventional wisdom in my absence. Had I been around, I would have pushed back strongly at this assembly of non-evidence. It was based on what I view IMO as out-of-context statements by councillor Martinez and statements by a councillor who was against the deal and presumably unhappy about being outvoted (councillor Clark), combined with unfounded speculation based on the perfectly normal consultation process.

Since you have worked on large projects, I assume you are familiar with consultants' reports. I further assume that you are familiar with the iterative nature of the consulting process. It is universally standard operating procedure that consultants issue several drafts of a report which the consultant and the client then review and revise as more and more information becomes available or assumptions get adjusted. That is particularly the case when the parties are operating on the fly, as is the case here, but it is SOP either way. Both Walker and Hocking did so (Walker did so as late as the end of January, when it added significantly to its cash flow estimates by adding the missing five years at the end).

Your theories regarding the dates of consultants' reports is fanciful and unsupported, given the above standard process. Rather than attack (as you could have) Hocking's specific estimates, your position simply focuses on the dates of issuance of various versions and casts aspersions on professionals simply on that basis alone. I reject the approach of argument by innuendo.

Your further suggestion that somehow a consultant's report is dubious simply because they are on retainer is spurious and outright distasteful. You are impugning the entire field of consultancy, I hope you realize, as there is no significant consultancy practice that does not have retainer relationships with any number of key clients. I guess when they are on retainer they are full of it, but when they are doing a one-off they suddenly become paragons of their field.

THe rest of your analysis of the credibility of any report was based upon prior assumptions regarding the credibility of the assumptions in the first place, as evidenced above:



You are opining on the credibility of reports by first assuming that Walker is a credible projection. :help:

THe capper, of course, was the reveal by GWI of a lawsuit where Hocking is one of over a dozen co-defendants in a bond default lawsuit. I read many posts articulating your revulsion. It might interest you to know that .... oh, but I'll wait a little longer. :naughty:

This is, needless to say, the conversation we would have had a while back when this issue was more current (except I would have been much more intemperate than my kinder, gentler me now before you ;) ). It is stale now, but that's the way she goes.

Well, good to have you back to preclude anyone else from dominating the discourse. ;)

That is an earful. I am sorry I missed your reply vis-a-vis the "arena management fee" - intercontinental travel sometimes interrupts and this has been a rather heavy-laden thread. Let me just say that I find your argument not very persuasive on the face of it. In any case, I think that your previous admonishments to me and others who suggested that Team expenses factored into the arena management fee were needlessly overstated.

I must say that you cannot persuade me vis-a-vis the Hocking analyses. I am VERY familiar with the consultant-government relationship, and the process of hiring consultants and using their reports, having substantial experience on both sides of relationship. Let me just say that governments use consultants on retainers for somewhat different purposes than independent consulting firms.

As to the Hocking numbers, my concerns were: optimistic projections of patrons (especially for non-hockey events), optimistic projections of parking fees, too long a time projection (i.e. how can one confidently project parking business model 30 years into the future?), and uncertainty as to how many parking spaces are actually being leased from the arena manager per se. Even if one accepts that the numbers might work out, I think it is irresponsible for a government to commit that much money and assume all of the risk inherent in the assumptions. If any of the main assumptions changes, or if the entire business structure of parking changes within 3 decades, and either of these makes a large impact on the parking revenues, the COG has already paid. If the COG and Hulsizer are so confident of the numbers, then why not share the risk?

Look, I understand why the COG is doing this, but to pretend that this deal is driven purely by achieving a balanced economic model between the COG and Hulsizer is frankly hard to believe.
 

Ciao

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Jul 15, 2010
10,106
5,928
Toronto
If Glendale really does intend to sue Goldwater for intentional interference and a declaration that the deal is valid, I think Goldwater is in a very good position to defend.

The intentional interference claim is, in my view, utter nonsense. Others may disagree, but I haven't yet seen any legal authority that overcomes the need to prove Goldwater used illegal, unlawful or improper means. They are within their rights to make their views known, and to bring legal action if and when they choose to do so.

As for a declaration that the deal is constitutionally valid, Hallelujiah! At last a court can decide that based on evidence in a proceeding in which Glendale has to produce all the evidence that is relevent to the constitionality of the deal. I don't think Goldwater would mind for one minute responding to that claim.

Furthermore, the institution of legal proceedings all on its own likely blows the Hulsizer deal out of the water once and for all, meaning that Goldwater wins the battle and the war.
 

Dado

Guest
By the standards some around here are suggesting, Pepsi can sue Coke because their animated polar bears caused damage to Pepsi's market share.
 

Faltorvo

Registered User
Feb 18, 2008
21,067
1,941
I apologize for inadvertently combining in my mind SCruggs' press conference (in which she references Bolick and his satisfaction with the amount of disclosure received) with Burnside's article around the same time in which he referenced the meeting between Hulsizer and Bolick when:



So, it was not Scruggs to whom Bolick communicated this; it was (as I read the article) Hulsizer to who Bolick communicated this.

Are you suggesting that it is a material difference whether he communicated this to Scruggs to Hulsizer? IF so, I am afraid I disagree.

Are you then suggesting that there is a material difference between how I originally paraphrased the Burnside report and how it reads in the article (which, BTW, WAS posted in this thread for all to read when it came out)? If so, again I disagree. How do you suggest was it that Hulsizer was left with that impression? Bolick's subtle body language?



Oh, it is not about Allstate. I am just torn as to whether to raise it, about a topic which was so reprehensible to begin with (that is, the smear campaign against Hocking, and this Board's gleeful reaction to same).

Point acknowledged about Sheen, etc. ;)



See above. Faltorvo does not need you or anyone else to explain his/her posts. He/she is plenty articulate on his/her own.

Once again GSC2K2 in that link there are no quotes by Hulsizer or Scruggs.

There is NO allegation in there by either of them. There has never been a statement to the public by either of them to this affect.

For all we know, this is nothing more then a assumption or outright lie made by Burnside.

For you to use the word assured and claimed is welllllllll.

Naive is not my middle name.

An honest mistake made by such an intelligent and informed person? I'll let the readers decide on that.

One thing is for sure, you have proved without a shadow of a doubt that your are a lawyer, using those tactics.
 

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
36,763
3,224
So again, is this Burnsides assumption or is there any proof such serious statements have been made?

You say Potato, I say Patoto. :laugh: I believe Burnside. You apparently dont. Thats fine with me, and I hope your OK with your position over there. I re-call seeing direct-quotes (Scruggs & Hulsizer) pre Burnsides article, the implications quite clear. You believe you wanna believe Faltorvo. Next....
 

Ciao

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Jul 15, 2010
10,106
5,928
Toronto
One thing is for sure, you have proved without a shadow of a doubt that your are a lawyer, using those tactics.

Capable lawyers never need to twist or invent things. An accurate summary of the evidence and a concise statement of law is usually more than enough.

Not seeing a lot of either in many posts made here.
 

billy blaze

Registered User
May 31, 2009
1,480
0
So the argument now is Clint Bollick told Hulsizer that GWI had no problems with lease yet in December 2010 GWI subordinates are on record warning COG prior to and after lease vote

http://www.torontosun.com/sports/hockey/2010/12/14/16553311.html

But the court battle over taxpayer subsidies could be just beginning.

Saying there are too many financial uncertainties in the deal, Goldwater said the agreement could amount to an “unconstitutional subsidy†for the Coyotes.

The organization pointed to the $97-million arena management fee Glendale would pay Hulsizer over the first five years of the agreement, calling it “grossly disproportionate to the fair market value†and potentially violating a “gift clause†in the state law.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2010/12/15/glendale_coyotes_lease/

However, the conservative Goldwater Institute warned the council that terms of the lease may violate Arizona's anti-subsidy law.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/br...waits-tonights-vote-on-Coyotes-111844654.html

Goldwater lawyer Carrie Ann Sitren points to the $97 million management payment the city would give Hulsizer to operate the building.
"This appears to be grossly disproportionate to the fair market value of the management rights and obligations, creating the potential for a violation of the gift clause," said the letter. Arizona law prohibits the gifting of public funds to private business.
"In addition to the arena management fee, there are other aspects of the proposal that could implicate the gift clause, such as special tax treatment, waiver of the team’s previous obligations, and the value of the parking rights when it is unclear both in terms of likely revenues and to what extent the city already owns those rights."
It is unknown if Goldwater will attempt to file an injunction impeding the sale of the Coyotes should council ratify the agreement.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/...6phoenix-coyotes-glendale-deal-objection.html


Goldwater attorney Carrie Ann Sitren said the organization is working to talk to experts and to analyze the 150-page agreement, released publicly a week ago. She said her initial reaction is that the city's lease agreement looks like it's a subsidy.

"There's just too many red flags to say it doesn't," she said.

City Attorney Craig Tindall said he is confident the city's deal will withstand a legal challenge.

When asked about the possibility of losing a lawsuit, Tindall told the council, "We don't believe that would ever occur."

Hulsizer echoed that view: "I don't expect Goldwater will sue and win."

If this was the case why wouldn't Hulsizer have replied- I am assured by Clint Bolick there are no problems with the lease.


VIDEO of Clint Bolick DECEMBER 19, 2010- Coyotes talk starts at 3:53

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uXTtM8Z7RA

quote" if we conclude it's a subsidy we will challenge it "

either Hulsizer didn't understand what Bolick told him or Burnside has been fed some bad intel
 

RECCE

The Dog House
Apr 29, 2010
3,203
0
Margaritaville
IMHO, they correct way to have brought forth that point would have been:

Scott Burnside reported that "Hulsizer, aware of the concerns expressed by Goldwater over previous possible deals, met with Goldwater's lead counsel, Clint Bolick, in December.

Hulsizer outlined the deal at that point and was left with the impression that there were no major issues."


The whole article is an opinion piece, at best.
 

Dado

Guest
You say Potato, I say Patoto. :laugh: I believe Burnside. You apparently dont.

Seems like this is another situation where both sides are likely "right".

Hulsizer: "So if we structured the deal like XYZ, what would you think?"
GWI: "It's possible it could fly, call me when you have the details."

One step removed, this can be interpreted as absolutely anything from "They love it!" through "They'll go to their graves fighting it".

As others have pointed out, GWI was publicly, in directly quoted statements, raising concerns about the deal structure, so I guess it's also possible the conversation took place at the Y and Hulsizer had water in his ears and didn't hear things exactly as he recalls.
 

CasualFan

Tortious Beadicus
Nov 27, 2009
3,215
0
Bay Area, CA
If Glendale really does intend to sue Goldwater for intentional interference and a declaration that the deal is valid, I think Goldwater is in a very good position to defend.

The intentional interference claim is, in my view, utter nonsense. Others may disagree, but I haven't yet seen any legal authority that overcomes the need to prove Goldwater used illegal, unlawful or improper means. They are within their rights to make their views known, and to bring legal action if and when they choose to do so.

As for a declaration that the deal is constitutionally valid, Hallelujiah! At last a court can decide that based on evidence in a proceeding in which Glendale has to produce all the evidence that is relevent to the constitionality of the deal. I don't think Goldwater would mind for one minute responding to that claim.

Furthermore, the institution of legal proceedings all on its own likely blows the Hulsizer deal out of the water once and for all, meaning that Goldwater wins the battle and the war.

I agree with everything state here. And I'll be watching the events unfold with great interest from my new Bead Jewelry Kiosk.
 

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
36,763
3,224
Hulsizer outlined the deal at that point and was left with the impression that there were no major issues."[/I] The whole article is an opinion piece, at best.

Based on fact. Im not defending Hulsizer/Scruggs, God no, quite the opposite. Its simply another salvo in this long running skirmish that illuminates the thought processes involved, most of which has been hidden behind locked doors for months on end. If Hulsizer "assumed" that Bolicks comments back in December, less than any kind of a ringing endorsement were such, then ran with it & is now suggesting he & Glendale were somehow "misled"?. Not buying it. :shakehead
 

Jet

Free Capo!
Jul 20, 2004
33,702
34,008
Florida
I just have to say I love having Mork here and hope he will stick around.

Obviously very knowledgeable on the subject, yet no pomp and circumstance, no grandstanding, no arrogance and no belittling other posters.

We need you here to show some others how to behave. Thank you! :clap:
 

Faltorvo

Registered User
Feb 18, 2008
21,067
1,941
Then I guess the OP has an even bigger problem, because Im named in the same suit. The proofs' been provided, and I for one have no interest in belaboring the point..... 2 words for you CF; Tortious Interference. Geez. Who'da thunk they'd pull that card?. :huh:

This isn't about opinion Killion, this is purely about facts.

There has never been a claim/statement or anything of the sort even remotely close to that assertion, either by Hulz or Scruggs.

There is absolutely nothing on the record in regards to that AT ALL.

Potatoe/ potato is that like lawyer/ liar?

Wait a minute, are you saying that what Burnside opined on with out providing any quotes by any of them ANYWHERE meets your burden of PROOF?

I'm not even sure that measures up to the lowly term hearsay, since there are no quotes provided?

Hell, he didn't even bother to indicate that Hulz or Scruggs relaid this information to him.
 
Last edited:

RECCE

The Dog House
Apr 29, 2010
3,203
0
Margaritaville
Based on fact. Im not defending Hulsizer/Scruggs, God no, quite the opposite. Its simply another salvo in this long running skirmish that illuminates the thought processes involved, most of which has been hidden behind locked doors for months on end. If Hulsizer "assumed" that Bolicks comments back in December, less than any kind of a ringing endorsement were such, then ran with it & is now suggesting he & Glendale were somehow "misled"?. Not buying it. :shakehead

Bold because I agree.

To add to that, I'm not calling anyone out here, just trying to clear up a problem that arose from a possible misunderstanding.

I've long put most "reporters" on squelch.
 

Roughneck

Registered User
Oct 15, 2003
9,609
1
Calgary
Visit site
I just have to say I love having Mork here and hope he will stick around.

Obviously very knowledgeable on the subject, yet no pomp and circumstance, no grandstanding, no arrogance and no belittling other posters.

We need you here to show some others how to behave. Thank you! :clap:

Of course all those traits means he'll never make it to the big time as a lawyer :sarcasm:
 

CasualFan

Tortious Beadicus
Nov 27, 2009
3,215
0
Bay Area, CA
either Hulsizer didn't understand what Bolick told him or Burnside has been fed some bad intel

Someone on the forum, I cannot exactly recall whom, has provided several lengthy dissertations on why information from the media should generally be disregarded as inaccurate.

Anyone linking to the Burnside article without severely questioning it's veracity would do well to go and find those opinions about media reports before they used anything in Burnside's column as the basis for their position.

:sarcasm:
 

Jet

Free Capo!
Jul 20, 2004
33,702
34,008
Florida
Someone on the forum, I cannot exactly recall whom, has provided several lengthy dissertations on why information from the media should generally be disregarded as inaccurate.

Anyone linking to the Burnside article without severely questioning it's veracity would do well to go and find those opinions about media reports before they used anything in Burnside's column as the basis for their position.

:sarcasm:

Some people either like to twist 'the rules' to suit their own argument, or they believe they are above the rules they advise others to follow.

Do as I say not as I do. :laugh:
 

Krautso

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
2,027
50
Some people either like to twist 'the rules' to suit their own argument, or they believe they are above the rules they advise others to follow.

Do as I say not as I do. :laugh:

You do not understand the heft and/or weight of whom you speak. Before you cast aspersions, please consult your nearest moderator who will assure you that facts and opinion are interchangeable for the truly bona fide posters.;):p:
 

New User Name

Registered User
Jan 2, 2008
13,095
2,084
I just have to say I love having Mork here and hope he will stick around.

Obviously very knowledgeable on the subject, yet no pomp and circumstance, no grandstanding, no arrogance and no belittling other posters.

We need you here to show some others how to behave. Thank you! :clap:

100% agree. It might be because he's acting on behalf of himself and not a paid...nah won't go there:laugh:
 

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
36,763
3,224
Potatoe/ potato is that like lawyer/ liar?

Well, that just isnt very nice at all. How would you like to wake up defrosting like 25cent Popsicle on a June day wearing nothing but a Mammoth Gonch 5000BC yrs from home?. Opening your eyes to see the Moon eating the Sun in a total Eclipse?. Having to go to Law School to make a living instead of eating peoples pets?. Bill yourself out at as Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer @ $5000 an hour, 50 hour Min?. Arguing complex Patent Law's before the Supremes in Washington DC, while everything from cars to cellphones' absolutely scares the Hell out of you?. Agoraphobic. Locked in your $6M Georgetown Townhome, frightened & alone.... Show some compassion Man....
 

PitbulI

Registered User
Dec 22, 2010
416
44
Is there proof that the NHL raised the price of the Coyotes?

I cannot believe that Bettman/NHL would do that considering how hard this deal has been to close in the first place.

Unless the NHL saying a raised sale price is to scare off True North because they may not buy the franchise for 210 million which gives COG more time.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad