Phoenix LXXV: It's Like Deja Vu All Over Again

[barneyg]

I'm not familiar enough to answer beyond the basics:
- New arena deal costs Quebecor more with NHL team
- Old arena lacks enhanced revenue opportunities found in new buildings (# suites/premiums, restaurants, etc)

This board is full of speculation on this issue, but not many facts. Whether or not Quebecor would make money with the Nordiques playing in the old Colisée fits in the 'speculation' column. My personal opinion is that it's irrelevant, as losses (if any) wouldn't be large enough to induce PKP to strategically delay the purchase of a team, at least nowhere close in importance to the actual asking price for a team (for which everybody has been parroting $170 million -- but that too is speculation).

 

[Killion]

Ah, okay, thanks. But if they don't extend, it's definitely curtains in Glendale, I assume.

It would certainly appear so, and by the middle to end of next week, unless as CasualFan's suggested, the NHL does some sort of sub-lease deal with whomever receives the Arena Management Contract or even bids on it themselves.... and wouldnt that be just a hoot.

 

[barneyg]

... got any room on yer cards barney? Visa, Amex, MC?
Just phone in the number, ask for Bill... 1-212-221-6375

Get your facts straight, that's a shoe store next to Times Square. They seemed puzzled by my request.

It's all moot since I'm saving room for cupcakes.. perhaps I could get my financing (almost) directly from the Quebec gov't like Quebecor did?

 

[Ugmo]

This board is full of speculation on this issue, but not many facts. Whether or not Quebecor would make money with the Nordiques playing in the old Colisée fits in the 'speculation' column. My personal opinion is that it's irrelevant, as losses (if any) wouldn't be large enough to induce PKP to strategically delay the purchase of a team, at least nowhere close in importance to the actual asking price for a team (for which everybody has been parroting $170 million -- but that too is speculation).

Anybody have any insight into Winnipeg's finances? Quebec has a similarly sized arena and presumably would have similar ticket prices. So if Winnipeg is barely breaking even, I guess that would translate into a substantial loss in QC due to the lower number of luxury boxes.

 

[LeafShark]

has that been established? that playing in the colisee would result in a operating loss?

I'm not familiar enough to answer beyond the basics:
- New arena deal costs Quebecor more with NHL team
- Old arena lacks enhanced revenue opportunities found in new buildings (# suites/premiums, restaurants, etc)

It probably be profit neutral. Keep in mind that it is approximately the same size as the MTS Centre with less luxury suites and other revenue generators, and it's older. Winnipeg made BANK in it's first year back. Quebec will probably have more ad and TV money though. I think Quebec will be one step ahead after it gets it's new arena. Before the new arena, it should only be slightly behind. Maybe it might make a few million, maybe it might lose a few million (I'd lean closer to the side of making money). It's not that important in the grand scheme of things, and I don't think you even have to question whether or not it is sustainable in the long run.

If Quebec has any chance to get an NHL team, they would JUMP on it, even if there is a risk of losing a little money on the onset. You simply don't refuse a team because it's not preferable to receive a team now and you'd rather have it with the new arena (profit wise), because the market for a new NHL will definitely change, and getting that new team will definitely be harder. The NHL will be more than happy for Quebec to take Phoenix off its hands as it would mean that they get to stop writing cheques for Phoenix, and they don't have to write any cheques for Quebec. Quebec will not be a bottom of the league loser.

Even though it would over saturate the market with 3 modern arenas if this went down, what about, if it's still exists, renovating Veterans Memorial Coliseum and moving the Coyotes there?

Veterans Memorial Coliseum is starting to get up there in age (opened 1965), so they'll have to build a new arena in downtown Phoenix eventually, and it will probably be hockey convertible. They'll need to do this if they want to keep the Phoenix Suns (and no they won't move to Glendale).

 

[Mightygoose]

Anybody have any insight into Winnipeg's finances? Quebec has a similarly sized arena and presumably would have similar ticket prices. So if Winnipeg is barely breaking even, I guess that would translate into a substantial loss in QC due to the lower number of luxury boxes.

Was under the impression that Winnipeg was doing better than barley breaking even. Plus Mark Chipman mentioned that the new CBA (50/50 helps thier bottom line even more.

I agree, don't think QC will make money in the Colissee due to the lower number of luxury boxes, plus they don't own the place like they do in WPG. Don't think that would be a concern to PKP in the short term but we'll see..

 

[Acesolid]

Anybody have any insight into Winnipeg's finances? Quebec has a similarly sized arena and presumably would have similar ticket prices. So if Winnipeg is barely breaking even, I guess that would translate into a substantial loss in QC due to the lower number of luxury boxes.

But the majority of the money for Quebecor would come from videotron, tva sport and tva, not the arena. That's the business model that makes a team here viable.

 

[cbcwpg]

Anybody have any insight into Winnipeg's finances? Quebec has a similarly sized arena and presumably would have similar ticket prices. So if Winnipeg is barely breaking even, I guess that would translate into a substantial loss in QC due to the lower number of luxury boxes.

Can't say for year #2 yet, as it's not over, but in year #1... the NHL operation side of TNSE made a profit of $13.5 million.

Depends what you concider "breaking even".

 

[Ugmo]

Thanks fellas. So basically there is no reason why PKP would pass up on the team now as opposed to later. If he wants a team at all, he'll gladly take it now.

 

[Killion]

b

Get your facts straight, that's a shoe store next to Times Square. They seemed puzzled by my request.

Oh sorry, forgot to tell you. League owns that store, Bill's workin the floor. You have to order a
pair of shoes, your team of course, $99.99 or if you want the Coyotes version, $170,000,000M.

.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but how does the realignment work for possible relocation spots next year?

I'm assuming Unless it is Seattle, Then wherever the team ends up will move to the Central/Midwest and Colorado will move to the Pacific

EDIT: By Central/Midwest I mean that division that should be called central, but is actually called Midwest

Colorado, Winnipeg, Chicago, Nashville, St. Louis, ect.

 

[mesamonster]

????? Bettman, Pastor, Gosbee--- last home game tomorrow night and not one word from any of these fraudsters!!! A shame the NHL leadership felt the need to deceive the paying patrons of the city of Phoenix and suburbs! More evidence that GB is a narcissist, only capable of enhancing his own over inflated ego!

 

[Ugmo]

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but how does the realignment work for possible relocation spots next year?

I'm assuming Unless it is Seattle, Then wherever the team ends up will move to the Central/Midwest and Colorado will move to the Pacific

Now there's a can of worms.

I think the general consensus is that if it's QC, they'd have to play in the Pacific for a couple of years before realignment is reviewed.

 

[Acesolid]

Now there's a can of worms.

I think the general consensus is that if it's QC, they'd have to play in the Pacific for a couple of years before realignment is reviewed.

That's definitively what I expect following the precedent set by Winnipeg in the south-east. However impossible, insane and detrimental to the entire western conference that is.

 

[cheswick]

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but how does the realignment work for possible relocation spots next year?

I'm assuming Unless it is Seattle, Then wherever the team ends up will move to the Central/Midwest and Colorado will move to the Pacific

No real solid info on that. The PA agreed to realignment based on reopening it in 3 years or if there was a relocation. Its too late to relaign for next season regardless.

The logical thinking is if the Coyotes relcoate they still play out of the paicfic, or the move that you suggested. I think its safe to say that if there's a chance of relocation for next year a schedule is made up already.

 

[Llama19]

Concerning the Coyotes...

Craig Morgan ‏@cmorgancbsfoxaz

@Phoenix_Jet We have to find out soon for a number of logistical reasons. Thought we were going to hear this week, but more delays...

But, Craig 'tweeted' this just two days ago...

"For those pining for #Coyotes ownership news, plenty is happening in private, but I have nothing to report at this time."

Source: https://twitter.com/cmorgancbsfoxaz

Hoo's he really been talking to...

Hoo's there!

 

[Whileee]

Can't say for year #2 yet, as it's not over, but in year #1... the NHL operation side of TNSE made a profit of $13.5 million.

Depends what you concider "breaking even".

And the NHL operation is likely just a part of the overall financial equation for TNSE. They have built an entire sports and entertainment business around the MTS Centre and the Winnipeg Jets, so there are a lot of other revenue streams. Suffice to say, if they are making a decent profit on the Jets per se, they are doing very nicely overall. I expect that they are quite pleased with their $170 million investment.

 

[Nordskull]

Concerning the Coyotes...

Craig Morgan ‏@cmorgancbsfoxaz

@Phoenix_Jet We have to find out soon for a number of logistical reasons. Thought we were going to hear this week, but more delays...

But, Craig 'tweeted' this just two days ago...

"For those pining for #Coyotes ownership news, plenty is happening in private, but I have nothing to report at this time."

Source: https://twitter.com/cmorgancbsfoxaz

Hoo's he really been talking to...

Hoo's there!

Gosbee/Daly: You know the team is a great asset for your city.

Weiers: Huh?

Gosbee/Daly: NHL hockey is great. Its a must for Glendale and, between you and me, you don't really have the choice to accept our terms.

Weiers: Gimme half a second will you. Need to call my wife...

Gosbee/Daly: Sure.

Weiers: What are you waiting for, get out my office and get back in 5 minutes.

Gosbee/Daly: Ah, OK.

Five minutes

Gosbee/Daly: can we get back?

Weiers: Sure, come in. I am sorry, my wife wasnt there and I forgot you were waiting for me.

Gosbee/Daly: Like we said, we're ready to make a deal, and the team would be sold to Gosbee, but he needs 15M a year AMF to take care of the arena...

Weiers: An AMF?

Gosbee/Daly: ... and a 3 years out clause.

Weiers: Could you repeat that again please?

Gosbee/Daly: Mr mayor, you seems to not understand the importance of the Coyotes for your community.

Weiers: Look, I think its you guys who don't understand. Gimme me half a minute, need to call my car dealer, I need an appointment.

Gosbee/Daly: Well, sure...

Weiers: Would you please get out of my office while I call my garage?

And on and on and on.

 

[Killion]

Bettman, Pastor, Gosbee--- last home game tomorrow night and not one word...

1) The NHL doesnt know what its going to do as of yet.
2) The NHL is still hoping that Gosbee, Pastor, Jamison or ? closes.
3) The NHL has concluded negotiations with an off-site buyer already.
4) The NHL plans to stay put for another season, invokes the AMUL, receives $6M.

but no, no words from the league nor anyone else for that matter. Its possible we'll hear something later today, pre or post game tomorrow, Saturday.... if not, then the NHL has until Wednesday at 5pm to notify the COG they'll be renewing the AMUL for 2013/14. If they dont, I'd say the teams a goner.

 

[Nordskull]

1) The NHL doesnt know what its going to do as of yet.
2) The NHL is still hoping that Gosbee, Pastor, Jamison or ? closes.
3) The NHL has concluded negotiations with an off-site buyer already.
4) The NHL plans to stay put for another season, invokes the AMUL, receives $6M.

but no, no words from the league nor anyone else for that matter. Its possible we'll hear something later today, pre or post game tomorrow, Saturday.... if not, then the NHL has until Wednesday at 5pm to notify the COG they'll be renewing the AMUL for 2013/14. If they dont, I'd say the teams a goner.

Two days pre notice beginning after the end of the Coyotes season, which is saturday in ANA.

It would be monday.

 

[Killion]

... pleased with their investment.

Yepp. And it tickles me to no end to think that had the NHL had half a brain, they couldve charged Winnipeg around $250M+ for an Expansion Franchise & received all that lovely money themselves completely unencumbered. So ya, Id say Chipman & TNSE did very well indeed at $170M, in fact, a bargain at that. And here we go again, round & round & round we go...

 

[CasualFan]

This board is full of speculation on this issue, but not many facts. Whether or not Quebecor would make money with the Nordiques playing in the old Colisée fits in the 'speculation' column. My personal opinion is that it's irrelevant, as losses (if any) wouldn't be large enough to induce PKP to strategically delay the purchase of a team, at least nowhere close in importance to the actual asking price for a team (for which everybody has been parroting $170 million -- but that too is speculation).

Good enough for me. I consider you about the most well informed poster on this forum, so if your opinion is no strategic value in delay, then I put a lot of value on that.

Ah, okay, thanks. But if they don't extend, it's definitely curtains in Glendale, I assume.

Not definitely but the extension is only the sure way for the team to have a venue to play in next season. It doesn't seem probable that the NHL would allow a franchise to be homeless. So they'd either need to extend or have a relocation out in hand ...unless you want to venture into the dubious territory of side deals, conspiracies, or bid rigging schemes that would give the NHL certainty about using Jobing.com Arena without participating in the RFP process. I'm not inclined to believe there's the will or skill to pull something like that off.

 

[Whileee]

1) The NHL doesnt know what its going to do as of yet.
2) The NHL is still hoping that Gosbee, Pastor, Jamison or ? closes.
3) The NHL has concluded negotiations with an off-site buyer already.
4) The NHL plans to stay put for another season, invokes the AMUL, receives $6M.

but no, no words from the league nor anyone else for that matter. Its possible we'll hear something later today, pre or post game tomorrow, Saturday.... if not, then the NHL has until Wednesday at 5pm to notify the COG they'll be renewing the AMUL for 2013/14. If they dont, I'd say the teams a goner.

1) I think that the NHL knows what it will do. If there is no legit buyer it has a Plan B already settled. If there is a legit buyer it might not know what the COG will do, but it will know what it will do, depending on what the COG will do. ("Who's on first?")
2) The NHL probably already knows if any of those groups is a legitimate buyer. It also probably knows what the buyers would demand from the COG in terms of a lease. It does not know how the COG would respond regarding the lease terms.
3) I expect that they have an agreement for relocation, in case they can't finalize a local sale.
4) I agree that this is still in the realm of possibility, but I highly doubt that the NHL would go this route. If they did, it would mean that there really isn't a viable buyer for a local sale, so they would just be committing to a very expensive lame duck season.

 

[mesamonster]

1) The NHL doesnt know what its going to do as of yet.
2) The NHL is still hoping that Gosbee, Pastor, Jamison or ? closes.
3) The NHL has concluded negotiations with an off-site buyer already.
4) The NHL plans to stay put for another season, invokes the AMUL, receives $6M.

but no, no words from the league nor anyone else for that matter. Its possible we'll hear something later today, pre or post game tomorrow, Saturday.... if not, then the NHL has until Wednesday at 5pm to notify the COG they'll be renewing the AMUL for 2013/14. If they dont, I'd say the teams a goner.

My money is on the team leaving! Rather than face media and fan scrutiny regarding their little hide the nut game they have determined that silence is the best means of saying goodbye! chicken little at its best! seriously, after all of the false rhetoric that emanated from Bettman/Daly over the last 3 years or so, I have come to believe NOTHING that they say. The rumors of something being done privately is complete hogwash and deception. With the season ending for the team on saturday evening, the league will make an announcement next week in conjunction with the AMUL signing. They will use that day to say how hard they have fought to keep the team blah, blah, blah and that they have reached an agreement with the PKP group in Quebec. Thanks for all of your support everyone, come see us at the Colisee next year it should be fun!

 

[GF]

Yepp. And it tickles me to no end to think that had the NHL had half a brain, they couldve charged Winnipeg around $250M+ for an Expansion Franchise...

You realize the Blues sold for 140m$, the Thrashers for 170m$ and the Habs for 500m$ including the Bell Center, one of the most profitable venue in NA???

So you guys think an NHL expansion team is worth what again???