Phoenix LXXI: Daydream Belever

[awfulwaffle]

There are not too many teams. There are just teams in the wrong places. QC, Markham, Hamilton, and Seattle are all markets that could support an NHL team. If you have 4 teams that need to be moved you have 4 spots to put them in. Right now you only have 1 that needs to be moved, the Coyotes. Even if Florida, Tampa, Carolina, and Nashville are losing money they all have owners who for whatever reason (Florida because of arena profits, Nashville because of pride in city, Carolina and Tampa because they still believe in the long term future of the market).

San Jose lost money too. Cmon now, if you are going to just bring up teams that lost money, bring them all up.

 

[awfulwaffle]

I don't think that the NHL will do that and why would Glendale do five years, what do they get out it, after five years the teams just moves and Glendale would just be throwing good money after bad.

It's 5 more years of an anchor tenant. If after 5 years, the situation turns around and the owner decides to stay, what's so bad about that?

Seriously, the COG is in **** either way, if the team stays or not, but if they stay, it's more money in their pocket if they can find an Owner that isn't asking the city to subsidize so much. Is that possible, doubtful. But it's still a possibility. Phoenix is a huge market, whether you want to believe it or not.

 

[aqib]

Baum never actually negated the lease, iirc. He warned Glendale they would need to get in line with everyone else to whom Moyes' entities owed money. He subsequently came to some agreement between the NHL and COG (Feb 2011, or around the time of the CFD talk). Since the CFD failed, the resolution of who owned the parking rights in the first place never had to be addressed.

I don't think the suit the NHL filed against Moyes has been resolved yet. Maybe the NHL's position about damages would be weakened if they relocated the team.

Rejecting the lease means obligations from the date of filing forward, it doesn't mean that they didn't owe on any past moneys owed. Also, there may have been other contracts between the city and the team outside of the arena lease.

Think of it like this. When KMart filed bankruptcy all those years ago they closed 700 stores. Most of those were leased. Thats how they got out of so many leases at once.

 

[aqib]

San Jose lost money too. Cmon now, if you are going to just bring up teams that lost money, bring them all up.

OK sure, but they also have owners willing to underwrite the losses, and they may have a Florida situation where the enterprise makes money. Also unlike Phoenix and some of the others San Jose has never had egregiously low attendance.

 

[Major4Boarding]

I don't think the suit the NHL filed against Moyes has been resolved yet. Maybe the NHL's position about damages would be weakened if they relocated the team.

Correct. It got kicked back to AZ by NY. Paraphrasing but they essentially said the parameters of the suit were better argued back in bankruptcy court than there. If I can dig it up (or if someone else feels compelled) before I head off to bed I'll post as an edit/add. If not, tomorrow.

 

[DJ Omnimaga]

There was only 12,151 fans for the $1 beer night tonight at the game between the Coyotes vs the Stars. What can we expect Monday vs the Wild?

Meanwhile, at the Remparts game: http://instagram.com/p/VQX12VojcX/

Granted, this is junior hockey and the Coyotes lacks ownership, but Tampa Bay lightning had terrible financial/ownership issues a few years ago, yet their average attendance was still over 15K.

 

[StayFrosty]

Can someone get me up to speed?

Is it likely any teams will be relocating after this season?

What's the bottom line on the Coyotes currently?

And which city is most likely to get a new team first?

Is there any chance that more than one team will relocate after this season?

 

[powerstuck]

Meanwhile, at the Remparts game: http://instagram.com/p/VQX12VojcX/

14k something was the announced assistance. Was there, lost voice because of awful refs that missed a few calls.

 

[Undertakerqc]

Meanwhile, at the Remparts game: http://instagram.com/p/VQX12VojcX/

Thats a hockey market!

 

[powerstuck]

Can someone get me up to speed?

Is it likely any teams will be relocating after this season?

What's the bottom line on the Coyotes currently?

And which city is most likely to get a new team first?

Is there any chance that more than one team will relocate after this season?

True answers

1) Don't know

2) The latest deal between Jamison and CoG is past due date. There are rumored at least one new investors group. Jamison hopes as well to continue negotiating with CoG.

3) Depending to which fan base you talk to. Top names are Quebec and Seattle but many others are in the wishful thinking pot.

4) No. Or at least would be a very very big surprise.

 

[Dado]

The clock is ticking...

That is an assumption. It may not be a valid one, as all evidence to date suggests the NHL definition of "ticking" occurs on a timscale considerably slower than many have expected.

 

[DyerMaker66*]

Can someone get me up to speed?

Is it likely any teams will be relocating after this season?

I'd bet money that the Coyotes will.

What's the bottom line on the Coyotes currently?

Jamison didn't meet the deadline to secure the proposed lease. He is still atempting to complete his purchase of the team.

And which city is most likely to get a new team first?

I would say Quebec City, followed closely by Seattle.

Is there any chance that more than one team will relocate after this season?

That's very doubtful, imo.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

Can someone get me up to speed?

Is it likely any teams will be relocating after this season?

What's the bottom line on the Coyotes currently?

And which city is most likely to get a new team first?

Is there any chance that more than one team will relocate after this season?

Sure, I'll try....

Only the Yotes.

Deep in the red, no interested buyers, no municipal funding, and likely owned by a league not interested in losing money another year.

Either Seattle or Quebec City, depending on who you ask.

No, the Yotes are the only team on the relocation block for at least 5 years, not counting the Isles moving from Uniondale to Brooklyn, for obvious reasons.

 

[blues10]

I think if you track the agreements involved, you'll arrive at a different conclusion:







In May 2011, the NHL and Glendale agreed to extend the AMOA and AMUL to play the 2011-2012 season at Jobing.com. As consideration for extending the AMOA, the NHL received a second payment of up to $25MM. As consideration for extending the AMUL, the NHL received the sole right to extend the AMUL a period of up to 10 years.

You can find some of the agreements here: http://www.azcentral.com/ic/pdf/0509draft.pdf

Thanks CF.

So in essence The NHL and COG are 21 months into the AMUL.

 

[awfulwaffle]

OK sure, but they also have owners willing to underwrite the losses, and they may have a Florida situation where the enterprise makes money. Also unlike Phoenix and some of the others San Jose has never had egregiously low attendance.

Never? Just like Chicago? Give me a ****in break!

 

[pondnorth]

That is an assumption. It may not be a valid one, as all evidence to date suggests the NHL definition of "ticking" occurs on a timscale considerably slower than many have expected.

You dodged my question about your previous post [mod].

 

[Fugu]

Correct. It got kicked back to AZ by NY. Paraphrasing but they essentially said the parameters of the suit were better argued back in bankruptcy court than there. If I can dig it up (or if someone else feels compelled) before I head off to bed I'll post as an edit/add. If not, tomorrow.

Yes, that's how I remember it too. Is this the lawsuit that might be affected if the team was relocated?

 

[aqib]

Do we know if the NHL's month-to-month agreements voided the 10 year rollover agreement?

 

[aqib]

Never? Just like Chicago? Give me a ****in break!

Again, they had willing owners. If Wirtz had ever put the Hawks on the market they would have had many interested parties that would not have asked the city for a check.

 

[Skidooboy]

It's 5 more years of an anchor tenant. If after 5 years, the situation turns around and the owner decides to stay, what's so bad about that?

Seriously, the COG is in **** either way, if the team stays or not, but if they stay, it's more money in their pocket if they can find an Owner that isn't asking the city to subsidize so much. Is that possible, doubtful. But it's still a possibility. Phoenix is a huge market, whether you want to believe it or not.

What???? Seriously! You think after 16 years of losses and two failed locarions and three years of NOBODY even close to having the cash to step up and purchase this team you still think there is a remote chance? Is it possible?????

Five years? To turn around the market? [ mod ] But it is a tiny and failed hockey market.


All anyone can do with this team in this market is hemorage money.


Glendale is, by any measurable means, less screwed if the team leaves. Period. You cannot keep throwing good money after bad. Any money Glendale tries to pump into the coyotes or that white elephant of an arena is just terrible business and worse governance!

Sorry but it is over! accept it and move on. Spend this season enjoying the team and find a new one next year.

 

[awfulwaffle]

What???? Seriously! You think after 16 years of losses and two failed locarions and three years of NOBODY even close to having the cash to step up and purchase this team you still think there is a remote chance? Is it possible?????

Five years? To turn around the market? You are delusional if you think that pheonix will turn around. Huge market? Maybe for Doritos or Cadillacs or gell nails. But it is a tiny and failed hockey market.


All anyone can do with this team in this market is hemorage money.


Glendale is, by any measurable means, less screwed if the team leaves. Period. You cannot keep throwing good money after bad. Any money Glendale tries to pump into the coyotes or that white elephant of an arena is just terrible business and worse governance!

Sorry but it is over! accept it and move on. Spend this season enjoying the team and find a new one next year.

If the arena was built in Scottsdale, the team would be very viable. There is a market down here.

 

[kdb209]

Rejecting the lease means obligations from the date of filing forward, it doesn't mean that they didn't owe on any past moneys owed. Also, there may have been other contracts between the city and the team outside of the arena lease.

The AMULA and other Glendale Contracts were not assumed by the NHL when the purchased the team in bankruptcy. They remained in Moyes' estate, where they were eventually rejected - any liability for damages lied with the estate, not the NHL. The NHL initially operated under a sub-lease from Moyes estate, and then under a series of new lease agreements with CoG.

 

[Dado]

You dodged my question about your previous post [mod].

Neither of the leading contenders in the relo sweepstakes will have an "NHL ready" arena 9 months from now.

Fortunately (or not, depending on perspective) it's not necessary to have one.

 

[DJ Omnimaga]

Quebec doesn't have a new arena yet, but:

1) A new one started being built in September 2012
2) Until the new one is completed around September 2015, the old 15K seats one is apparently a viable temporary arena according to the NHL.

Seattle has an old arena that has a smaller hockey capacity which could be viable considering the dumps that Ottawa and San Jose used before their new arena is complete, but Seattle didn't break ground yet. They're about 1 year behind Quebec.

Markham has neither and they didn't break ground yet. (UNless team plays in Hamilton while the Markham arena is built?)

Kansas City and Portland both got new arenas ready for use I think, but do they have owners willing to move a team there?

 

[Evil Doctor]

That is an assumption. It may not be a valid one, as all evidence to date suggests the NHL definition of "ticking" occurs on a timscale considerably slower than many have expected.

I believe the term for it is eon..