Phoenix LXII: Abandon Hope all Ye Who Enter Here

[AllByDesign]

... ABD? Your the first person Ive ever encountered who actually admits to that publicly.

I am only the 2nd to admit this. Harry Hess would have been the 1st.

 

[roccerfeller]

Given that they tried to sell the Hawks a few months later, they could have put the whole package (Hawks, Thrashers, arena) on the market.

They, apparently, did and no one bit

 

[mesamonster]

Losing all of that traffic is not good for anyone. Booking events + the Coyotes = much more profit.

Why would someone want to eliminate a piece of the puzzle that guarantees patrons will go to Westgate? That is just plain stupid.

Oh please, because to keep them nets the city a certain $14MM loss in year one! Now multiply times 20 and you have the single reason this is an absurd proposition. The city does not have the money, why is it that some folks seem to think that the city is an endless money tree?

 

[roccerfeller]

I understand what you are saying, trust me on that one.
Where I can continue to emphasize the benefit is if someone did a better job of managing the arena, that 3M would be a lot more.

There's more to it than "better management will change things" though

I'm all for the Coyotes staying if they were stable or had stability in their near future

But that isn't going to happen under any realistic scenario

 

[Killion]

killion, you think there's any chance we come out of the lockout with two new cities right away?

Anythings possible. Depends how long the Lockout lasts.

You can decide for yourself, but Glendale Councilmember Steven E. Frate is a liar in my books.... And if not an outright liar... he has to be as confused and dense upstairs as possible.

Maybe he's a Dipsomaniac. Loaded. Inebriated. Drunk. "Carpetbagger, I looked it up". Seriously?!. Your the Vice-Mayor of a city, an American citizen and you'd never heard that term before and had to "look it up"? Ya'll reckon Frate's ever heard tell of the Civil War?... Where do these people come from? Can we send them back?

...Harry Hess would have been the 1st.

Harem Scarem

 

[AllByDesign]

Harem Scarem

..... Honestly? If there's no justice in the world, would you have something to say?

 

[aqib]

They, apparently, did and no one bit

Yeah my point is ASG wasn't just like "we are going to get rid of this hockey team and keep the Hawks and the arena" they looked at selling the package and selling them independently

 

[aqib]

.... absolutely. A rather "unusual" perspective does that one have.

well I have to say. I give the guy credit. He is involved and cares about his community. I think he said once he was 72. So to have your faculties and care enough to go to EVERY freaking city council meeting and speak about issues that lets face it won't effect you very long is admirable.

 

[Killion]

....care enough to go to EVERY freaking city council meeting and speak about issues that lets face it won't effect you very long is admirable.

Like I said; Absolutely!.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

You can pretty much guarantee that the Yotes are staying in Phoenix for another year. After that we will have another offseason of the same BS that has been happening for the last ummmmmm forever.

The incompetence and ego of the people involved in this mess is incredible.

It is really simple, relocate or contract.

 

[Evil Doctor]

You can decide for yourself, but Glendale Councilmember Steven E. Frate is a liar in my books.... And if not an outright liar, the underlined response he gives below clearly shows some dishonesty traits.... And if not an dishonest outright liar... he has to be as confused and dense upstairs as possible.

There was no dishonesty there. At no point did he call Williams a carpetbagger. However it is true that a large number of BeavisPAC (aka Save Glendale Now) are from outside of Glendale.

 

[TheLegend]

Oh dear. From that website, referencing Clark's political ad materials:



Yikes. Where's the guys who were trying to say that Clark's anti-Latino comments were taken out of context?

And why is it that this is the first I've heard of any other group (not counting the Ice Edge clowns) that have come forward with a proposal to manage the arena? If the city thinks $15 million a year is the going rate, they should at least listen to what this group is presenting, instead of having Clark dismiss them outright because they happen to be a "Latino management company". I'm guessing this company wasn't looking for a $15 million guaranteed fee.

Let me pose this question.....

Does pointing out a group of Latinos (including a few with nefarious backgrounds) working to get a major foothold within Glendale's city government constitute being anti-Latino??

btw..... the alternate proposal from the Phoenix Monarch Group to operate the arena was brought up way back when the original Jamison AMF was working it's way trough the city council. The proposal was a joke. The group has a shaky past, and zero experience running a major arena the size of jobing.com Arena.

 

[TheLegend]

You can decide for yourself, but Glendale Councilmember Steven E. Frate is a liar in my books.... And if not an outright liar, the underlined response he gives below clearly shows some dishonesty traits.... And if not an dishonest outright liar... he has to be as confused and dense upstairs as possible.

He was quite thorough in describing what a carpetbagger is.

The fact there are members of Save Glendale Now (the pro-tax rollback) who do live in Glendale (the gentleman who acts as their front man serves on Glendale's planning commission) does not preclude the fact there are others in that group who are not.

Even GWI (based in Scottdale AZ) has to have a Glendale resident serve as a front man as the means to their injecting themselves into Glendale's politics. And GWI gets the majority of its operating cash from outside Arizona.

 

[TheLegend]

There was no dishonesty there. At no point did he call Williams a carpetbagger. However it is true that a large number of BeavisPAC (aka Save Glendale Now) are from outside of Glendale.

I think you meant Glendale First! herr doktor..... And they have been very open as to what they're about.

Do try again.

 

[ajmidd12]

He was quite thorough in describing what a carpetbagger is.

The fact there are members of Save Glendale Now (the pro-tax rollback) who do live in Glendale (the gentleman who acts as their front man serves on Glendale's planning commission) does not preclude the fact there are others in that group who are not.

Even GWI (based in Scottdale AZ) has to have a Glendale resident serve as a front man as the means to their injecting themselves into Glendale's politics. And GWI gets the majority of its operating cash from outside Arizona.

What's your point? If Mr. Frate can't handle the heat, get out of the fire. The simple way out? Admit they were wrong.

Without Phoenix and Mesa area Glendale would be a ghost town. Majority of the Coyotes fans live OUTSIDE Glendale. Go figure.

220,000 people isn't a big enough City to own a major sports team.

 

[TheLegend]

There's more to it than "better management will change things" though

I'm all for the Coyotes staying if they were stable or had stability in their near future

But that isn't going to happen under any realistic scenario

I think that's a reasonable look at where things are right now.

Three years of soap opera have done a lot damage. If Jamison had come along in the beginning I'd feel a lot better about it than I do now.

 

[roccerfeller]

I think that's a reasonable look at where things are right now.

Three years of soap opera have done a lot damage. If Jamison had come along in the beginning I'd feel a lot better about it than I do now.

My point is it goes deeper than just that, than just "3 years of soap opera"

There are compounded issues, various issues; issues present before the soap opera was on national TV... there are tons of reasons the situation is where it is right now

And the damage, of which I include the "reconciliation" Glendale city council is trying to add, is to such an extent that it might be like milk gone bad...

..sure it might have had potential as a functional and nutritional drink once, but its gone past its best before date...and right now, its sour.

And the longer everyone goes back and forth over whether we should take a gulp of faith,

the more sour its going to get

 

[Whileee]

I think that's a reasonable look at where things are right now.

Three years of soap opera have done a lot damage. If Jamison had come along in the beginning I'd feel a lot better about it than I do now.

Why? Jamison doesn't have the money and will have to kowtow to whoever actually puts the money into the franchise. Who knows what latitude he will have to run the operation? Until the investors are revealed, and the management structure is clarified, it is impossible to assess how this might work. It remains quite an amazing thing that Glendale still has not had the temerity to force Jamison to reveal his investors, don't you think?

As to the alternate groups who have offered arena management services, let's not forget that the IEH folks were right in that mix. They strike me as opportunists of the first order, who see a vulnerable town with an expensive arena. They seemed to have no problem insinuating themselves into the mix and offer to run the arena after the Coyotes had been ditched. Not very helpful, or loyal to the Coyotes, when it comes right down to it.

 

[CasualFan]

Let me pose this question.....

Does pointing out a group of Latinos (including a few with nefarious backgrounds) working to get a major foothold within Glendale's city government constitute being anti-Latino??

Yes. In this case it certainly does. Clark's campaign materials weren't observational. She didn't innocently point out that Latinos are seeking positions in city government. She presented a clear accusation that all Latinos will favor the same platform and will always vote in unison to support Latino causes to the detriment of all other residents. It is a divisive and racist message. And it's totally inaccurate.

Worse, Clark questions if they are part of a "hidden agenda"; as if Latinos are gathering in secret to plan a coup whereby they assume a council majority to control and corrupt the city. It's a deplorable position. I knew Clark was dumb but I didn't expect this.

Also, who are these Latinos with "nefarious backgrounds" that you mention? And what specific activities are you are calling nefarious?

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Off the top of my head:

Hamilton
Quebec City
Houston
Kansas City
Seattle
Atlanta
Milwaukee
Portland, Oregon
Cleveland
Hampton Roads / Richmond Virginia

All of those places have at least a temporary arena that could take an NHL team tomorrow while a new arena is built or the current one is renovated. There are lots of destinations that make far more sense than the proven failure of Glendale, Arizona for this hockey team.



I have no doubt that the 509,000 Coyotes patrons each season do have some kind of positive effect on Westgage businesses. But surely you aren't arguing that the possible extra business at Westgate from hockey fans is reason enough for the city to invest $325 million over the next 20 years in Arena Management Fees, are you?

At roughly $15 million a year in fees, generating roughly $3 million a year for the city in direct income, propping up the Coyotes is going to cost the city of Glendale roughly $12 million a year. Put another way, the city is basically paying Greg & Friends $23.58 (net) for each and every fan that makes his/her way to the Jobbing.com arena to watch the Coyotes. Is the marginal benefit that Westgate gets worth $23.58 per person that the city is spending?

If the whole idea is to help out Westgate and spur development, paying $23.58 a head and hoping these fans spend some money at the movie theatre or bar on the way to a hockey game is a terrible business plan.

Wouldn't the city be far better off using some or all of that $12 million to spend direcltly on the Westgate businesses themselves? $12 million in tax breaks / incentives / advertising / construction assistance / "Westgate Restaurant Management Fees" would have a much more direct and beneficial impact on Westgate than covering a hockey team's losses so that some percentage of 509,000 people each year may go next door for a slurpee after a hockey game, encouraging those businesses not to close, and adding a few pennies on the dollar to the city's tax haul.

I would suggest handing out $20 bills to the first 1,500 cars that enter Westgate every day for a year would have a far bigger impact on the Westgate businesses than propping up the JIG's hockey team losses to the (net) tune of $12 million a year.

CGG:

THINK again:

Hamilton-already occupied by Bulldogs-AHL; SEE Hamilton thread;

QC-proposed arena and other league requires Quebec franchise since Montreal is dwarfed and rejected thrice by juniorc despite Courteau's insistence a team has to be in MTL;

Houston-AHL and owned NHL Operator-(WILD);

KC: Mayor against sport, AEG SALE?

Seattle- waiting on SODO Arena-see Seattle thread;

Atlanta- not enough hardcore base after Thrashers struggle;

Milwaukee-AHL franchise in 35th season;

Portland, OR-Discussed, but Paul Allen stands in way;

Cleveland-why would Gilbert allow another tenant in his building after San Jose?

Norfolk (it's never Hampton Roads)/Richmond, VA, AHL Cross-owned w/ Tides(NOR); Richmond has no arena despite rumors of one in Chesterfield County, and is struggling to replace its baseball facility to remain relevant.

 

[ajmidd12]

^ Some of your rebuttals are nothing short of laughable as to why a City couldn't temporarily house a team.

If any of us learned anything last year is just how quickly not one but TWO teams could move and setup basecamp. Winnipeg had the Manitoba Moose which merged / spliced with the Chicago Wolves (when TNSE bought the Thrashers), the farm team then moved to St. John's.

When the sale was made, logo, jersey's, hell even the arena weren't finalized yet ready for the upcoming season, TNSE did all this including selling out for 3-5 years in 4 months.

PKP has all the bones in place to make it happen, the jerseys and name would be easy, the marketting absolute no brainer, ticket sales no problem.

 

[Confucius]

^ Some of your rebuttals are nothing short of laughable as to why a City couldn't temporarily house a team.

If any of us learned anything last year is just how quickly not one but TWO teams could move and setup basecamp. Winnipeg had the Manitoba Moose which merged / spliced with the Chicago Wolves (when TNSE bought the Thrashers), the farm team then moved to St. John's.

When the sale was made, logo, jersey's, hell even the arena weren't finalized yet ready for the upcoming season, TNSE did all this including selling out for 3-5 years in 4 months.

PKP has all the bones in place to make it happen, the jerseys and name would be easy, the marketting absolute no brainer, ticket sales no problem.

It really is puzzling why the league hasn't given a team to QC yet. I believe they will announce the 2 team expansion sometime this year after the CBA is finalized.

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

Just watched the ESPN Documentary 9.79. Is it possible to not be sickened by Carl Lewis???

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

https://twitter.com/JKTHN/statuses/256376786852667392

Where did I hear this before??? Oh yes, "The List"...

**

1) The NHL will sell GJ the Coyotes for ~$75M to $100M.

2) The NHL will announce a sale price of $175M.

3) The GWI will huff and puff but do nothing.

4) The NHL will continue to say that they have NO plans for expansion.

5) The NHL will enter a negotiation with the NHLPA and insist on a 50-50 revenue sharing.

6) The NHLPA will say “HELL NO!!!!!”.

7) The NHL will then say “I’ll tell you what. You give us 50% (a reduction of 7%) and we will expand by 2 teams (a jobs increase of 7%)”.

8) The NHLPA will agree.

9) There will be a higher ceiling and lower floor – making the Coyote more inexpensive to run. The players will also get to play in Sochi in 2014.

10) The NHL will expand to QC in around 2014. The BoG will put a cool $200M in their pocket that they don’t have to share with the players.

11) The NHL will also expand to either Seattle (for $150 - $200M) or Toronto(2 for $300M). Again, the players will see none of it.

12) Gary Bettman will look like a hero which will makes us all feel a little sicker at night.

 

[blues10]

Just watched the ESPN Documentary 9.79. Is it possible to not be sickened by Carl Lewis???

Is he one of GJ's JIGs?

Carl, TO, the Arabs and Lakehead Yale sports Holdings formerly known as Ice Edge. Quite the group that GJ is assembling. Seems about time for GJ to add Cindy Hensley McCain to the the group.