Phoenix CXXXIV: 3 Sheets To The Wind

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Fairview

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Neither will I. I’ve jumped on a couple of fans who had the attitude that they didn’t care, they just wanted their hockey fix.

I was also guilty of jumping on the IA bandwagon against Glendale at first but as things progressed and more information came out you couldn’t stay on. That’s probably why I’m taking the position I am now in regards to the compliance review. IIRC the beef centered around Glendale wanting access to some of the proprietary info IA held and what could be made public. And IA’s position wasn’t much different than any of the other teams in regards to wanting their books open to the public. It also wasn’t any secret that a couple of council members couldn’t keep their mouths shut.

So I have to give IA some benefit of doubt, even if it turned out they really were using funds where they shouldn’t.
I guess if IA didn't want Glendale Council to see their books, then they shouldn't have gone to them asking for money. Especially in light of the fact that they were supposed to pay Glendale back a certain amount of the revenues brought in.
IA to Glendale.." No, you can't look at our books, you will have to trust us;)" or " we will only allow a select few to take a peek...we nominate Tyndal as your rep to see the numbers":laugh:
I can't remember, was there any consideration for an independent accounting of the team's books?
 
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Fairview

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Wow, you'd think with some of the taxpayer watchdogs in here that no sports franchise was ever successful in a public-owned stadium, and if they were it was because the cities involved were being sucked dry by evil greedy money mongers....:rolleyes: ... don't break an ankle falling off those high horses, guys.
Well, in the case of NHL/IA, if the shoe fits:nod:
 
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TheLegend

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I guess if IA didn't want Glendale Council to see their books, then they shouldn't have gone to them asking for money. Especially in light of the fact that they were supposed to pay Glendale back a certain amount of the revenues brought in.
IA to Glendale.." No, you can't look at our books, you will have to trust us;)" or " we will only allow a select few to take a peek...we nominate Tyndal as your rep to see the numbers":laugh:
I can't remember, was there any consideration for an independent accounting of the team's books?

IIRC..... The agreement included amendments that prevented the city from viewing certain financials IA deemed as proprietary. IOW.... it was more than likely limited to the arena operations and the revenue generators back to the city. The internal books of the franchise itself were off limits.

MY understanding is and the crux of the argument was the city didn't want to stop there.

The city no longer keeps records back that far online. Someone here might have the AMULA file laying around though.
 

Fenway

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Colangelo called Ziegler and was told fuhgeddaboudit so the downtown arena was built for basketball.

The same thing happened in Brooklyn
 
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Mightygoose

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Despite what Colangelo was told and being vilified by the Coyotes fandom, as long as the team was going to be a Tennant, playing downtown was never going to be viable long term.

Sure the configuration was awkward, but having a few thousand lower bowl end seats to see is not going to make a big dent either way. The place still seated over 16K but without access to the non game revenues, naming rights etc...

Unless Colangelo owend them, there was no chance of it working even with an NHL configuration.

This is why sharing with the Suns won't work today. Fertitta's interest is why it could work in Houston today....ironically.
 

DowntownBooster

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You initial point seems to be you think Jerry Colangelo should have built AWA as a multi-purpose arena for both NHL hockey and basketball (and spending additional millions in the process) even though he was told there would be no NHL team forthcoming.

BTW.... Baseball stadiums do not make for great football stadiums.... or vice versa... period. Not at the pro level. That’s what Colangelo felt and there’s plenty of history available to support that.

While I would agree that baseball stadiums do not make for great football stadiums or vice versa (in fact they look terrible when combined), it might be a bit of a stretch to compare them with a facility that combines both hockey and basketball. Most NBA teams share a building that is also built to accommodate hockey. Perhaps Colangelo was shortsighted in not building AWA as a multi-purpose arena for both hockey and basketball inspite of being rejected by NHL President John Ziegler at the time.

:jets
 
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Lions67

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So what is the latest news here?
I used to be heavily invested in this thread from around 2009 to when the Jets came back. Then I stopped caring.

But I feel this franchise is cursed.
Need to lift the curse.
Give Winnipeg back it’s history. Coyote Hockey starts from 1996
Everything else should be returned.
Watch that curse get lifted once that happens :)
 

awfulwaffle

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So what is the latest news here?
I used to be heavily invested in this thread from around 2009 to when the Jets came back. Then I stopped caring.

But I feel this franchise is cursed.
Need to lift the curse.
Give Winnipeg back it’s history. Coyote Hockey starts from 1996buy in
Everything else should be returned.
Watch that curse get lifted once that happens :)

Year to year lease with AEG in Glendale. Always looking for a new barn on the east side of town. Owner is looking for an investor to buy in for a 49% stake. Coyotes put in money towards a jumbotron(used to be at the palace I believe), which doesn't fit the narrative that they are biding time until they move. That's about it, but plenty of other notes have been posted about their marketing, when someone on the staff sneezed, etc. which helps keep these threads going.
 
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The Feckless Puck

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So what is the latest news here?
I used to be heavily invested in this thread from around 2009 to when the Jets came back. Then I stopped caring.

But I feel this franchise is cursed.
Need to lift the curse.
Give Winnipeg back it’s history. Coyote Hockey starts from 1996
Everything else should be returned.
Watch that curse get lifted once that happens :)

I'm all for that. We've tried everything else.
 

StreetHawk

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Colangelo called Ziegler and was told fuhgeddaboudit so the downtown arena was built for basketball.

The same thing happened in Brooklyn

Barclay's was an economic reason. It was being built during the financial recession. Original plans included having the arena up to NHL standards, but due to finances they opted to scale it back by $200 million and redesign the arena. Unfortunately, the final costs with the re-design ended up costing what the original design was estimated to cost.

Seattle was the same way. NHL hockey could have been in Seattle way back in the late 90's expansion if the city would have built a brand new arena instead of renovating what is now KeyArena. Plan was that if they got an expansion team (during the TB/Ott round), that they would build a new arena. Due to Seattle not getting an expansion team, due to backstabbing by the NBA owner who was part of the Seattle bid, there was only renovations to the Key. Unfortunately, those renos only held up for like 16 years before the Sonics left town.
But, that's where I see failure on the NHL's part. If they were forward thinking, they would have gone to the city of Seattle and told them that they would have more expansion later on and that they want to be in Seattle. Not sure if that would have been enough to convince the city of Seattle, but once a city commits to spend money on a basketball only facility, there's not going to be more money a few years later to build another one for hockey.

There are a few Basketball only arenas in the USA. Even the one in Carolina was supposed to only be for basketball for the NC State Wolf Pack, but then PK negotiated the move from Hartford, so it was redesigned to include hockey.

Who has watched basketball game in a basketball specific arena and one that accommodates NHL hockey? Is there that significant a difference in the viewing experience between a basketball specific and duo arena for sight lines? On the outside, it seems like a waste that a city wouldn't give itself the opportunity to one day have an NHL team or even host some hockey. Thinking the larger markets. Indiana Pacers, it's understandable that they went basketball only for their arena.

With the way sports has gone, arena deals are more and more important. It's either 1 owner owns both teams in order for them to share the revenues, or the 2 separate teams have to negotiate the arena deal with the city together like in Dallas where the Mavs and Stars have different owners. Basically, you need to have a seat at the table. That's the only shot that the Coyotes have of returning to downtown Phoenix. They need the Suns to be ok with sharing. Which, from the Suns POV, sharing a new facility isn't as lucrative as being the primary tenant of a renovated TSRA.
 
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awfulwaffle

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They need the Suns to be ok with sharing. Which, from the Suns POV, sharing a new facility isn't as lucrative as being the primary tenant of a renovated TSRA.

Wait, what? A current tenant that has a sweetheart deal doesn't want another tenant coming in stealing open dates and revenue? Crazy!
 

CHRDANHUTCH

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Colangelo called Ziegler and was told fuhgeddaboudit so the downtown arena was built for basketball.

The same thing happened in Brooklyn
uh, the New Jersey Devils beg to differ and you DO know the history of Uniondale, Fenway, that was done for the Nets, instead of having them share with the Devils once Prudential Center became the reality
 

aqib

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Feb 13, 2012
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If you’re so sure the non-compliance issue is so strong then why didn’t Glendale use it as cause for terminating the lease??

They didn’t.

Note I’m not excusing IA here.... they screwed up. But IMO it doesn’t excuse Glendale pulling the end around they did either.

Every year the Coyotes are in Glendale without the old arena management agreement is a win for Glendale (and the mayor quite frankly). So with the old deal voided after 2 years, he has saved a ton of money for 3 seasons. The old deal (assuming the out clause wasn't excercised) would have had 10 years to go on it. So we know they are there for this season. The NHL probably doesn't want to move a team until after Seattle is in place. So thats 3 more years. So in the worst case scenario he loses 7 seasons of the Coyotes, but the money he saved on the 6 makes up for it.
 

awfulwaffle

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Every year the Coyotes are in Glendale without the old arena management agreement is a win for Glendale (and the mayor quite frankly). So with the old deal voided after 2 years, he has saved a ton of money for 3 seasons. The old deal (assuming the out clause wasn't excercised) would have had 10 years to go on it. So we know they are there for this season. The NHL probably doesn't want to move a team until after Seattle is in place. So thats 3 more years. So in the worst case scenario he loses 7 seasons of the Coyotes, but the money he saved on the 6 makes up for it.

What does that matter? As a Coyotes fan, am I happy that Glendale did what they did to get the team and keep them, of course. But realistically, they made a stupid deal to pay the fee each year to house the team. I don't think any city should be paying a professional sports team, a million dollar business, to let them play in their city and arena.

The whole issue of should Coyotes be mad at Glendale or not, is ridiculous. I'm thankful that they did what they did for as long as they did, but can't fault them for growing a brain.
 
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aqib

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What does that matter? As a Coyotes fan, am I happy that Glendale did what they did to get the team and keep them, of course. But realistically, they made a stupid deal to pay the fee each year to house the team. I don't think any city should be paying a professional sports team, a million dollar business, to let them play in their city and arena.

The whole issue of should Coyotes be mad at Glendale or not, is ridiculous. I'm thankful that they did what they did for as long as they did, but can't fault them for growing a brain.

I was just responding to the comment that Glendale was stupid for breaking the agreement. They've still had the team for 3 years and mostly likely 3 more at least.
 

TheLegend

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I was just responding to the comment that Glendale was stupid for breaking the agreement. They've still had the team for 3 years and mostly likely 3 more at least.

Who said they were stupid?

I said I didn’t like how they went about it. That’s not saying they’re stupid.
 

Fairview

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What does that matter? As a Coyotes fan, am I happy that Glendale did what they did to get the team and keep them, of course. But realistically, they made a stupid deal to pay the fee each year to house the team. I don't think any city should be paying a professional sports team, a million dollar business, to let them play in their city and arena.

The whole issue of should Coyotes be mad at Glendale or not, is ridiculous. I'm thankful that they did what they did for as long as they did, but can't fault them for growing a brain.
I wonder what would have happened if Glendale council would have shot down the big subsidy from the beginning? Bettman had made those veiled threats to move the team without Glendale signing on.Most would have believed the move would have been out of state. I had always assumed that the threat was real. Now I am more inclined to believe that it was just a load of BS. Bettman was only threatening to move the team elsewhere in Arizona it seems. Looking back, maybe council does a thumbs down on the agreement and Bettman leaves the team parked while he looks around for another patsy like he is doing now? We are likely in the same place, but Glendale is a lot less cash strapped than they were?
 

TheLegend

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I wonder what would have happened if Glendale council would have shot down the big subsidy from the beginning? Bettman had made those veiled threats to move the team without Glendale signing on. I had always assumed that the threat was real. Now I am more inclined to believe that it was just a load of BS. Bettman was only threatening to move the team elsewhere in Arizona it seems. Looking back, maybe council does a thumbs down on the agreement and Bettman leaves the team parked while he looks around for another patsy like he is doing now? We are likely in the same place, but Glendale is a lot less cash strapped than they were?


You would probably have been cheering for this franchise in Winnipeg instead of the Thrashers and they might have ended up in Quebec City.
 

Fairview

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You would probably have been cheering for this franchise in Winnipeg instead of the Thrashers and they might have ended up in Quebec City.
I used to believe that. But now I am not so sure. The only reason that the Thrashers went to Winnipeg was because they were basically kicked out of their arena in Atlanta. No matter what has gone on in Glendale. I believe that Glendale still wants the team to stay.
 

Mightygoose

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Keep in mind when Glendale was faced with the 'insurance policies' in 2010 and 2011 plus the AMF in 2013, the league still owned the franchise.

No one was going to buy the team without those arrangements. Today, at least Barroway is some form of ownership to keep it going. How much longer is in question. If he can't find new investors, they've already done the threat. Once/if Barroway is done, this saga gets into rarified air.
 

TheLegend

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I used to believe that. But now I am not so sure. The only reason that the Thrashers went to Winnipeg was because they were basically kicked out of their arena in Atlanta. No matter what has gone on in Glendale. I believe that Glendale still wants the team to stay.

I was looking at it purely from the timeline. The members of ASG we’re still hashing it out in court between themselves when Glendale was agreeing to pay the original $25M. Atlanta really wasn’t on the block per say for almost a year after that. However Bettman was said to have offered either franchise up to TNSE so anything was possible.

I agree Glendale certainly wants the Coyotes to stay. That was evident a while back when you had Mayor Weiers and city manager sending letters off to their counterparts in Phoenix asking them to “back off” trying to lure the team back downtown. Extending AEG as arena manger another 5 years is another sign.

Heck I can admit I have selfish reasons for them to stay in Glendale since I live in the west valley. :)
 
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