Phoenix CXXXIV: 3 Sheets To The Wind

[TheLegend]

We both know the answer to that. Fortress wanted the money from the city because IA didn't have the collateral. Fortress knew what they were dealing with.There is a very good possibility that without the payments directed as such, there would be no loan agreement. Big difference for IA.

No..... we don't know what Fortress wanted.... nor do we know the loan depended upon direct payments. Other than payments needed to be made to Fortress on a regular basis and IA wanted some flexibility. Even that is speculation on my part just as you're speculating.

Now that I have answered your question Maybe you could answer the question I have asked from you 2 previous times. Why would the Coyote fans have a right to be mad at Glendale?The only thing that I could think of with your reference of the 2.5 million shortfall, is that you think that Glendale should have just accepted that, along with all the other failures on the IA end of the agreement. If that is the wrong assumption then please explain that comment. You want to talk about moving the goalposts. You have not even been on the field when it comes to answering that question.

Coyotes fans had a right to be angry at Glendale since they initiated the termination of the lease which put the franchise in the limbo it stands in today. After seven years of uncertainty and abuse from outside fan bases over the "worthiness" of being an NHL city, the 15 year lease with IA gave Coyotes fans a sense that there was going to finally be stability. Only to see the city rip that wound open again less than two years later.

Also.... in my previous comment I said right after that....

At the same time many weren’t pleased with IA either.

I've said on more than one occasion that I didn't like what Glendale did.... still don't..... but I also understood why they probably wanted to eliminate or reduce the additional $9M per year they were paying out. When Barroway joined into IA he brought additional financial support to the franchise, and I would speculate Glendale felt that additional $9M per year they were supplying was no longer necessary.

Also.... if you recall.... in the months prior to Glendale terminating the lease..... IA had entered into some discussions with the city to amend it, allowing some changes to what they charged for non-hockey events in order to fill more dates at the arena. Everything IA appeared to be doing at the time was to make the arena successful. But yes.... there was the financial review.... the squabbling between IA and the city over just what financial records could be audited. etc.

 

[Llama19]

^^^
Ahhh...the good olde contract compliance review report...

Contract Compliance Review: Professional Management Services and Arena Lease Agreement (C-8532)

 

[Stumbledore]

WARNING - IF you think someone is trolling use the report button.

Sadly, trolling is in the eyes of the beholder.

A few years ago, I responded to one outrageous comment by pointing out that the poster was wrong and including a link to a Mop and Pail report which proved they were wrong.

The poster responded with: "Haters gotta hate."

[MOD]

 

[mesamonster]

TL, how could you possibly be upset with COG? They acted upon a contract that had been agreed upon between IA and Glendale. Ia failed to live up to the covenants in the contract, the COG had every right to void the agreement based on IA`s non performance. Secondly, IA had a massive undisclosed conflict of interest with Tyndall negotiating from his position as past City Counsel for Glendale. This is just another example of how unprepared and ill suited IA was for the job of owning and managing the Coyotes.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

Sadly, trolling is in the eyes of the beholder.

".. a troll is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community...with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses and normalizing tangential discussion,whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain."

By this definition, a lot of trolling gets through here. A lot.

 

[TheLegend]

TL, how could you possibly be upset with COG? They acted upon a contract that had been agreed upon between IA and Glendale. Ia failed to live up to the covenants in the contract, the COG had every right to void the agreement based on IA`s non performance. Secondly, IA had a massive undisclosed conflict of interest with Tyndall negotiating from his position as past City Counsel for Glendale. This is just another example of how unprepared and ill suited IA was for the job of owning and managing the Coyotes.

I’m critical of Glendale as to how they went about it. When IA looked to hire Tindall they asked the city if they had a problem with it and the city told them they did not. Then they turn around and use the hiring as cause to terminate the lease. Had they used the compliance review instead (and let’s say it showed IA was cutting corners on operating the arena) as grounds then I don’t have as much of an issue.

 

[Fenway]

".. a troll is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community...with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses and normalizing tangential discussion,whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain."

By this definition, a lot of trolling gets through here. A lot.

Look - This megathread consists of 2 major groups, those that want the Coyotes to succeed and those who hope they relocate. It is a hard topic to moderate and we try our best.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I’m critical of Glendale as to how they went about it. When IA looked to hire Tindall they asked the city if they had a problem with it and the city told them they did not. Then they turn around and use the hiring as cause to terminate the lease. Had they used the compliance review instead (and let’s say it showed IA was cutting corners on operating the arena) as grounds then I don’t have as much of an issue.

The thing is that Glendale was fine with allowing all sorts of sketchy, questionable stuff so long as the team stayed and performed the barest minimum of due diligence on their part. I mean, it's almost startling how much they were willing to go along with. But when IceArizona wouldn't even perform the minimums, Glendale wanted an out. Tindall was as bulletproof an out as they could ask for - the compliance review would have taken longer because IA would have tied it up in court with "he said, she said" garbage.

I have way more issue with what Glendale allowed prior to terminating the lease than I do with them terminating it. And keep in mind, I'm speaking as a multi-year season ticket holder who very, very much does not want to see the team relocate.

 

[Stumbledore]

".. a troll is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community...with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses and normalizing tangential discussion,whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain."

By this definition, a lot of trolling gets through here. A lot.

Actually, my comment would have made a lot more sense if the Mods hadn't Killionized the rest of the post, thus depriving everyone of the point that I was making.

 

[Stumbledore]

Look - This megathread consists of 2 major groups, those that want the Coyotes to succeed and those who hope they relocate. It is a hard topic to moderate and we try our best.

I don't fall into either group, Fen. I'm only here because this forum is a habit that's hard to shake.

I changed law firms late in life. A senior partner in the new firm asked me to write up and do a presentation on the Coyotes' bankruptcy and note up each of Baum's decisions. After that, several members of the firm asked me to monitor what was happening and keep them abreast of developments. I did that right into early retirement, enjoying CasualFan and Killion immensely along the way.

Now I've got a Coyotes Forum Habit and enough time to continue the occasional check-in. I don't particularly care what happens to the Coyotes, nor do I have strong opinions as to what will happen. But after staying on this ride for as long as I have, including three different personas, I'm sufficiently fascinated to follow it through until the end. Or until I die, whichever comes first.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

No..... we don't know what Fortress wanted.... nor do we know the loan depended upon direct payments. Other than payments needed to be made to Fortress on a regular basis and IA wanted some flexibility. Even that is speculation on my part just as you're speculating.



Coyotes fans had a right to be angry at Glendale since they initiated the termination of the lease which put the franchise in the limbo it stands in today. After seven years of uncertainty and abuse from outside fan bases over the "worthiness" of being an NHL city, the 15 year lease with IA gave Coyotes fans a sense that there was going to finally be stability. Only to see the city rip that wound open again less than two years later.

Also.... in my previous comment I said right after that....



I've said on more than one occasion that I didn't like what Glendale did.... still don't..... but I also understood why they probably wanted to eliminate or reduce the additional $9M per year they were paying out. When Barroway joined into IA he brought additional financial support to the franchise, and I would speculate Glendale felt that additional $9M per year they were supplying was no longer necessary.

Also.... if you recall.... in the months prior to Glendale terminating the lease..... IA had entered into some discussions with the city to amend it, allowing some changes to what they charged for non-hockey events in order to fill more dates at the arena. Everything IA appeared to be doing at the time was to make the arena successful. But yes.... there was the financial review.... the squabbling between IA and the city over just what financial records could be audited. etc.

If you get caught up into the minutia of the actual decision to kill off the lease, then Glendale deserves some blame.

The more broad the context, the less blame Glendale gets.

At this point in the saga, while individual details can still interest me, mostlu I'm just trying to view it from the widest angle possible, so I put pretty much 0 blame with Glendale at this time.

 

[GuelphStormer]

Look - This megathread consists of 2 major groups, those that want the Coyotes to succeed and those who hope they relocate. It is a hard topic to moderate and we try our best.

i understand need to categorize and i cannot argue with this simple dichotomy - yes, if forced, most here would indeed fall into one or t'other camp ... but surely there are all sorts of interesting and worthwhile points of discussion here raised by everyone, like PR and marketing the team/sport/venue; the economics of arena location and competition; franchise ownership/control and unique revenue sharing over the years, and even; how the league overall and individual owners may partner with local and state governments ...

these topics, while often interpretable by side/camp, do not necessarily require card-carrying status in either of the stay/go camps to discuss. but a lot of good banter gets muddied by a lot of us with this whole camp nonsense, and what seems to be a sense to argue with anyone in the other camp about anything, even if one actually agrees.

 

[Fairview]

No..... we don't know what Fortress wanted.... nor do we know the loan depended upon direct payments. Other than payments needed to be made to Fortress on a regular basis and IA wanted some flexibility. Even that is speculation on my part just as you're speculating.



Coyotes fans had a right to be angry at Glendale since they initiated the termination of the lease which put the franchise in the limbo it stands in today. After seven years of uncertainty and abuse from outside fan bases over the "worthiness" of being an NHL city, the 15 year lease with IA gave Coyotes fans a sense that there was going to finally be stability. Only to see the city rip that wound open again less than two years later.

Also.... in my previous comment I said right after that....



I've said on more than one occasion that I didn't like what Glendale did.... still don't..... but I also understood why they probably wanted to eliminate or reduce the additional $9M per year they were paying out. When Barroway joined into IA he brought additional financial support to the franchise, and I would speculate Glendale felt that additional $9M per year they were supplying was no longer necessary.

Also.... if you recall.... in the months prior to Glendale terminating the lease..... IA had entered into some discussions with the city to amend it, allowing some changes to what they charged for non-hockey events in order to fill more dates at the arena. Everything IA appeared to be doing at the time was to make the arena successful. But yes.... there was the financial review.... the squabbling between IA and the city over just what financial records could be audited. etc.

I guess we just have a different interpretation of the word "right"..as in "the fans had a right to be upset with Glendale. I can certainly understand that the fans would be upset with the final result of what happened. I just don't agree that Glendale did anything wrong.
If the team asked council for their approval on the Tyndal hiring and they received it, maybe coucil just changed their collective minds. Just like some of the key voters changed their minds and alliances the night before the vote. Live by the Sword and Die by the Sword. That hiring just reeked of conflict of interest. If Tony wanted to reward a buddy for a job well done, he would have been better off pulling strings and getting Tyndal his reward in another state far...far..away. This was just a slap in the face to anyone who had opposed the back door dealings going on.
I remember the discussion back then about IA wanting to re-negotiate certain terms of the lease. IIRC and I could be wrong but IA's idea of negotiating was for the city to drop certain surcharges on smaller events , meaning less money flowing directly to the city and in exchange IA making yet another projection that lower surcharges would be recouped by a greater usage of the facility? Based on all the other IA projections, most of which according to the report were nowhere close to being realized, it is no small wonder that the city did not amend.

 

[Whileee]

TL, how could you possibly be upset with COG? They acted upon a contract that had been agreed upon between IA and Glendale. Ia failed to live up to the covenants in the contract, the COG had every right to void the agreement based on IA`s non performance. Secondly, IA had a massive undisclosed conflict of interest with Tyndall negotiating from his position as past City Counsel for Glendale. This is just another example of how unprepared and ill suited IA was for the job of owning and managing the Coyotes.

I find it absolutely preposterous that so many fans still focus their ire on Glendale.

Without the largesse of Glendale and its taxpayers the Yotes would be long gone.

Let's recount some of their heroic deeds...

Built the Yotes a state of the art arena on the back of taxpayers, with no private money...

Supported the NHL bid in bankruptcy proceedings to keep the team.

Forked out $50 million in subsidies, charging taxpayers for losses due to lack of enough fans willing to pay NHL ticket prices.

Entered into an arena lease deal to subsidize a group of eely and callow clowns as owners foisted on them by the NHL, helping to subsidize the purchase and operation of the team...

Yotes fans should send flowers every day to Glendale leaders and their taxpayers for affording them the luxury of watching NHL hockey in a beautiful arena and at rock bottom prices.

 

[Fenway]

Glendale had huge dreams 20 years ago.

They became the home of a NFL team in 2003, with the NHL coming a few months later. Then Camelback Ranch came along which was the brainchild of Jerry Reinsdorf who somehow convinced Frank McCourt to move spring training from Florida to Arizona. It's an odd situation where Glendale actually owns a stadium complex in Phoenix

There are storm clouds ahead as many Dodger fans have told the team Phoenix is not a place they want to spend vacation time and many White Sox fans also want to go back to Florida as they consider Phoenix a Cubs stronghold.

But the fact remains that back in 2002 everybody involved with the Coyotes bought into the Glendale vision from Bettman on down.

4 of the NHL teams struggling at the gate have one thing in common, they are not downtown (Carolina, Arizona, Florida and Ottawa) and the Islanders move to Brooklyn was a complete horror show. I think most of us agree that in the Coyote's case, Houston is the elephant in the room.

The Coyotes' saga reminds me of New York's Second Avenue Subway where construction started in 1972 and the first stations opened a year ago.

Second Avenue Subway - Wikipedia

 

[Boris Zubov]

Look - This megathread consists of 2 major groups, those that want the Coyotes to succeed and those who hope they relocate. It is a hard topic to moderate and we try our best.

There's a bunch of us who have no rooting interest one way or the other. Personally, I don't think a dollar of public money should pay for sports teams anywhere, which is why I really began paying attention during the first $25M ransom demand. I was appalled how the league held the COG over a barrel & dumbfounded the city was silly enough to pay...twice!

I still follow along, albeit mostly in silence, because it's truly fascinating the length that this has dragged on & how for the most part, this drama is almost ignored by the national sports media. Clearly the NHL has controlled the message on this subject since about 2010. Never more evident than that fateful day in 2015 when both Gary Bettman & Anthony LeBlanc used the "People in Glendale should be concerned about their government" rhetoric in separate press conferences from each side of the country.

There was nowhere else on the web where anyone was reporting on this story other than a 250 word blurb hidden on very few websites if they bothered to include anything at all. That lack of information is what led me to this forum in the first place. Nothing has changed in that regard. Not one credible news outlet follows this story very closely. (Craig Morgan doesn't count. He is neither credible or impartial when he covers this saga.) Which is why I continue to check this thread regularly.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

There are storm clouds ahead as many Dodger fans have told the team Phoenix is not a place they want to spend vacation time

Which is weird, because I'm from not too far from their former home (Vero Beach, FL), and why anyone would want have wanted to spend any significant time there, especially having to travel from southern California (it's not like the weather's gonna be an improvement in March), is beyond me...but it's tradition I suppose...

 

[TheLegend]

Direct link:
Hockey's heating up in Arizona thanks to Matthews, Coyotes | CBC Sports

 

[Llama19]

Coyotes start to fill up vendor roster with Phoenix-area talent

To quote:

"The team said Thursday it signed a multi-year agreement with Valley-based pizzeria Streets of New York, making it the “official pizza of the Arizona Coyotes.”

“Two of our core initiatives as an organization are to provide an outstanding fan experience at every one of our home games and to build strong relationships with local brands who play a significant role in the Phoenix community,” Ahron Cohen, Coyotes president and CEO, said in a statement. “Streets of New York has been in the Valley for over 40 years and has received recognition for producing the best pizza in Phoenix on numerous occasions.”

The restaurant chain isn’t new to working with Phoenix professional sports teams. It also operates inside Chase Field and Talking Stick Arena downtown."

Source: www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2018/08/23/coyotes-start-to-fill-up-vendor-roster.html

 

[TheLegend]

Direct link:
Hockey's heating up in Arizona thanks to Matthews, Coyotes | CBC Sports

Follow up story from Craig Morgan.... includes additional comparison data and more quotes from Coyotes CEO Ahron Cohen. (better than talking about pizza vendors and shows where some of that "$50 million burned through" is going.).

Coyotes continue to fuel hockey’s massive growth in Arizona

 

[Llama19]

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Coyotes start to fill up vendor roster with Phoenix-area talent

To quote:

"The team said Thursday it signed a multi-year agreement with Valley-based pizzeria Streets of New York, making it the “official pizza of the Arizona Coyotes.”

“Two of our core initiatives as an organization are to provide an outstanding fan experience at every one of our home games and to build strong relationships with local brands who play a significant role in the Phoenix community,” Ahron Cohen, Coyotes president and CEO, said in a statement. “Streets of New York has been in the Valley for over 40 years and has received recognition for producing the best pizza in Phoenix on numerous occasions.”

The restaurant chain isn’t new to working with Phoenix professional sports teams. It also operates inside Chase Field and Talking Stick Arena downtown."

Source: www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2018/08/23/coyotes-start-to-fill-up-vendor-roster.html

Streets of New York was the pizza vendor when I first started buying season tickets to the Coyotes about 13 years ago. Nice to see them back, to be honest.

Now, if only they'd bring back the nachos...

 

[mesamonster]

I’m critical of Glendale as to how they went about it. When IA looked to hire Tindall they asked the city if they had a problem with it and the city told them they did not. Then they turn around and use the hiring as cause to terminate the lease. Had they used the compliance review instead (and let’s say it showed IA was cutting corners on operating the arena) as grounds then I don’t have as much of an issue.

How do you know the city had such a response with regard to Tindall?

 

[TheLegend]

^^^ Streets of New York replaces Papa Johns whom the Coyotes and many other pro franchises dropped after the controversy surrounding its founder.

Also.... I’m getting a sense of deja vu by seeing things here that were posted a day earlier on the Yotes forum.

 

[TheLegend]

How do you know the city had such a response with regard to Tindall?

Was mentioned in articles following the lease termination. Also previously discussed here. However as CF pointed out it’s all irrelevant because the state law can’t be negated by a waiver.

Then there’s the fact Tindall worked for the Coyotes for several months and Frisoni a couple of months as an outside consultant (working on a bid for the Frozen Four) before Glendale suddenly decides it’s violating the AMULA as they finally get to meet with Barroway for the first time.