Phoenix CXX: High Tempe-rature

Status
Not open for further replies.

Tom ServoMST3K

In search of a Steinbach Hero
Nov 2, 2010
27,814
18,620
What's your excuse?
Whileee do you really think ASU would let themselves get involved with IA just for IA's benefit??

BTW interesting proposal regarding Glendale and GRA. What makes you think Weiers and his sidekick Hugh would even be interested in such an arrangement? Both of them think they have IA over a barrel while acting like they're both wearing one. :laugh:

On the first point, we really don't know anything about the nature of the relationship between IA and ASU.

Unless I've missed something, there has been no comment from ASU about the project. We know the developer hired by ASU has given some support, but that's it.
 

Fairview

Registered User
Jan 30, 2016
1,427
683
On the first point, we really don't know anything about the nature of the relationship between IA and ASU.

Unless I've missed something, there has been no comment from ASU about the project. We know the developer hired by ASU has given some support, but that's it.

I would also add, that IA supporters have made the claim on this forum that with ASU throwing their full support behind this project that the state would do whatever ASU has asked for. Yet, so far this bid has not even been sponsored. That coupled with the Regents statement, make me wonder just how strongly ASU is behind this project. IMO, they are likely just letting IA give it a shot. If it works..great, but if not, well the 16,000 seater was not in their plans anyways.
 

WildGopher

Registered User
Jun 13, 2012
1,072
159
Metro Phoenix already has an over-abundance of inventory, venues of various sizes both indoor & out. Its already seriously over-saturated. The concert & live-event business is not what it once was, few acts capable of filling cavernous arenas' of 16,000+. The vast majority of acts play smaller, more intimate venues, economy of scale. Fewer seats with a healthy price-point, better performance aspects, far superior sound quality, better audience experience, location convenient, the venues themselves much easier to work with, cost to setup & takedown a fraction of what it costs to stage a concert in an arena though most do offer smaller configurations, tarping off miles of seating its still impracticable. Far from ideal. The other nasty aspect to having one or two too many full sized arenas' be it NYC or anywhere let alone Metro Phoenix is that those few acts touring & capable of filling a 16K++ arena will be demanding in most cases Guaranteed Performance Fee's from the facilities management, pitting one venue off against another & another not just locally but so too regionally, bidding war. Could cost you $4M to host a U2 Concert, the bands management demanding %'s on top of that from tickets to parking & concessions etc etc etc and at the end of the day for your $4M you've net a profit of maybe 10, 50 grand tops. Possibly lost that much or more as was the case with a Billy Joel booking down in Sunrise, Yormark claiming it was "good business" due to the "prestige factor". That other acts will wanna book their facility because Piano Man croaked out his hits from 40yrs ago to a less than full house of Bluehaired Nearlydead Retiree's mostly from Long Island & New Jersey at the BB&T in South Florida. Absolutely crazy. IceArizona has neither the experience nor the money to be playing that game, they cant "bundle" concert stops like AEG or Global-Spectrum (both of whom have fallen far from their once lofty perches of the 80's & 90's) with a sort of wholesale approach in booking acts like The Eagles or Katy Perry or whomever. They'll be hard up against it. Competing not just with Sarver downtown but so too Glendale Arena for the few touring acts capable & or even willing to play venues of that size.

That explains why even AEG has had trouble filling dates at GRA. If the Coyotes leave, AEG has a real task in front of them not to leave the building empty most of the time. AEG owns an outdoor soccer team - I've always thought the demographics of greater Phoenix - a lot of young people, immigrants from cultures that love soccer - might make it a natural area to have soccer franchises, indoors or out.

Maybe AEG can use their connections to try to get an indoor team into GRA, or maybe an AHL team. It wouldn't help anyone to have that building sit empty.
 

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
36,763
3,220
On the first point, we really don't know anything about the nature of the relationship between IA and ASU.

Unless I've missed something, there has been no comment from ASU about the project. We know the developer hired by ASU has given some support, but that's it.

... true, just the "unofficial" ruminations of ASU's Athletic Director who has made some comments supporting the concept & plans.... but "officially" and publicly, no, nothing. Just the 6 month (expiring in June) exclusive negotiating agreement with ASU's developer Catellus, target date as announced by LeBlanc & Barroway of 2019 for opening. 16K seater with adjacent 4K seater facility to be used by the ASU Sun Devils, minor hockey & other sports/activities. Vaguely, $200M coming from IA, $200M coming from either or both ASU & the City of Tempe' (with the Mayor Tempe' apparently in the dark about it as of the date of the Press Conference announcing the plans a few mnths back) or the State. Special Tax Bill.... It just doesnt get any more complicated & confusing and when things get that complicated & confused without verification of supposed partnerships including specifics as to financing & exactly how the TIF plays out what are people supposed to think? Trying to find out, get any straight answers is like trying to nail Jello to a wall. Its extremely frustrating. Beyond frustrating. Why even bother holding a Press Conference? Get your act together and then hold a Press Conference. That they did what they've done absent specifics & details, absent anyone on the dias from Tempe or ASU... I mean.... seriously? Why would you leave yourself open like that? Especially given their track record to date with Glendale. Overpromised & underdelivered at every step along the way. Merchants of False Hope. And I'm sorry but theyve' put themselves into a position whereby whatever they say has to be met with scepticism as theyve consistently misled & obfuscated at every possible turn and seemingly lack not only the financial heft to get anything done without relying on massive subsidies but even when they do get them lack the critical thought, creativity & experience, the innate abilities that are mandatory if that club has a hope in Hell of ever flourishing in Arizona. Absolutely beyond incompetent.... end rant.... just what is this. The NHL, if they had a conscience should be absolutely ashamed of themselves. Absolutely despicable. No respect. Left the fans to twist in the wind for a decade and no end in sight. Just gets worse month after month, year after year.
 
Last edited:

Fairview

Registered User
Jan 30, 2016
1,427
683
That's because doom and gloom is a popular thing. ;)

Take for instance..... Right now we haven't even seen what IA is proposing but reading some of the narrative over the past few days you would swear everyone had their own personal copy. :laugh:

Just a few weeks ago it was "ASU isn't even talking to Ice Arizona about an arena." That got shot to hell with the announcement.

Now this doesn't mean they're completely off base. There's plenty of reasons to be critical about how IA has progressed through this and if they manage to get a bill introduced there will be a lot more.

TL, I agree with your point that I have bolded above. We do not know the specifics of the IA proposal but we certainly do know the general outline of what the proposal will be. I believe that since this arena is a "want" not a "need" of the market that it is solely the responsibility of the team to pay for it. After construction if the team wants rebates for taxes collected in the arena, I believe that is a fair request. Tony said that they (IA) will put in $200 million or about half the required construction costs, so for myself, anything contained further in the proposal is a non-starter.
Without getting into the actual numbers, the idea that IA will present if sponsored, is that for the $200+ million that the state provides, the state will receive economic benefits that will somehow exceed their initial investment. Tempe and ASU will be in 7th heaven with their arena district and the Coyotes will not need any further direct subsidy to keep afloat. Most here,would probably agree that the likelihood of all those wonderful claims being fulfilled is beyond remote at best. Projections of this sort almost never come true. Just look to GRA for the latest prediction that failed miserably to come close to projections. We do not need to see the specifics of this plan to know what the general outline is going to be.
You have said, more than once, that you want to see what is in the proposal before passing judgement, like most of us have done already.
So, what do you need to see from this plan in order for you to support it or not ? Do you support the idea of the government putting in $200+million to assist in constructing a 16,000 seat facility for this team in this market, knowing the GRA was already built specifically for this team just over a decade ago?
Where do you draw the line for support of this team? How much money and trust do you feel the tax payer should place on this ownership group and the NHL based on their prior track record in Arizona?
 

WildGopher

Registered User
Jun 13, 2012
1,072
159
Without getting into the actual numbers, the idea that IA will present if sponsored, is that for the $200+ million that the state provides, the state will receive economic benefits that will somehow exceed their initial investment. Tempe and ASU will be in 7th heaven with their arena district and the Coyotes will not need any further direct subsidy to keep afloat.

Yes, that seems to be the general outline of what the proposal will be, with this exception: As stated by LeBlanc in the video link posted by Llama in #733 above, the Coyotes also want to draw from revenue brought in by the transaction privilege tax. It sounded to me like LeBlanc wanted this to be on-going, as he stated that revenue would not exist at all without the arena project.
 

mesamonster

Registered User
Oct 13, 2011
2,261
219
Scottsdale, AZ.
... true, just the "unofficial" ruminations of ASU's Athletic Director who has made some comments supporting the concept & plans.... but "officially" and publicly, no, nothing. Just the 6 month (expiring in June) exclusive negotiating agreement with ASU's developer Catellus, target date as announced by LeBlanc & Barroway of 2019 for opening. 16K seater with adjacent 4K seater facility to be used by the ASU Sun Devils, minor hockey & other sports/activities. Vaguely, $200M coming from IA, $200M coming from either or both ASU & the City of Tempe' (with the Mayor Tempe' apparently in the dark about it as of the date of the Press Conference announcing the plans a few mnths back) or the State. Special Tax Bill.... It just doesnt get any more complicated & confusing and when things get that complicated & confused without verification of supposed partnerships including specifics as to financing & exactly how the TIF plays out what are people supposed to think? Trying to find out, get any straight answers is like trying to nail Jello to a wall. Its extremely frustrating. Beyond frustrating. Why even bother holding a Press Conference? Get your act together and then hold a Press Conference. That they did what they've done absent specifics & details, absent anyone on the dias from Tempe or ASU... I mean.... seriously? Why would you leave yourself open like that? Especially given their track record to date with Glendale. Overpromised & underdelivered at every step along the way. Merchants of False Hope. And I'm sorry but theyve' put themselves into a position whereby whatever they say has to be met with scepticism as theyve consistently misled & obfuscated at every possible turn and seemingly lack not only the financial heft to get anything done without relying on massive subsidies but even when they do get them lack the critical thought, creativity & experience, the innate abilities that are mandatory if that club has a hope in Hell of ever flourishing in Arizona. Absolutely beyond incompetent.... end rant.... just what is this. The NHL, if they had a conscience should be absolutely ashamed of themselves. Absolutely despicable. No respect. Left the fans to twist in the wind for a decade and no end in sight. Just gets worse month after month, year after year.


You answered many of your own questions, most importantly you ask, "why did they put themselves in this untenable position?" Because they lack the experience to know better, Tony loves to hear himself blather away about nothing. He must have some delusional idea that GB will come riding in on a white horse and hand him a new arena. All he needs to do is talk needlessly about something he has no business attempting to orchestrate. Under normal working conditions he would have been let go years ago. Perhaps Barroway and Drummond are just smart enough to know what they don`t know. Rather than be made to look like fools they just trot out flappy mouth Tony to make a fool of himself. Honestly, why is this man still the mouthpiece for this organization? Being the face of the franchise has not helped their cause at all. In fact, his style and false bravado have now become the butt of too many jokes and innuendos related to his myriad of vocal miscues.
 

Tom ServoMST3K

In search of a Steinbach Hero
Nov 2, 2010
27,814
18,620
What's your excuse?
You answered many of your own questions, most importantly you ask, "why did they put themselves in this untenable position?" Because they lack the experience to know better, Tony loves to hear himself blather away about nothing. He must have some delusional idea that GB will come riding in on a white horse and hand him a new arena. All he needs to do is talk needlessly about something he has no business attempting to orchestrate. Under normal working conditions he would have been let go years ago. Perhaps Barroway and Drummond are just smart enough to know what they don`t know. Rather than be made to look like fools they just trot out flappy mouth Tony to make a fool of himself. Honestly, why is this man still the mouthpiece for this organization? Being the face of the franchise has not helped their cause at all. In fact, his style and false bravado have now become the butt of too many jokes and innuendos related to his myriad of vocal miscues.

I mean, yeah we make fun of him here, but is our opinion shared by coyotes fans?
 

Fairview

Registered User
Jan 30, 2016
1,427
683
I mean, yeah we make fun of him here, but is our opinion shared by coyotes fans?

Well, the media does not call him on any of his broken promises or blown deadlines. I'd wager that most fans don't have a clue about what he actually is.As far as they know, Tony is building them a new arena. If/When the team leaves, something will certainly hit the fan!!
 

mesamonster

Registered User
Oct 13, 2011
2,261
219
Scottsdale, AZ.
I mean, yeah we make fun of him here, but is our opinion shared by coyotes fans?

Most wouldn`t know him if you put him in a two person lineup with Larry Fitzgerald! Whether or not they know him or of him hardly matters, what is important from here on forward is how well the Governor and legislators know him and what he is attempting push on them!
 

Whileee

Registered User
May 29, 2010
46,134
33,328
Whileee do you really think ASU would let themselves get involved with IA just for IA's benefit??

BTW interesting proposal regarding Glendale and GRA. What makes you think Weiers and his sidekick Hugh would even be interested in such an arrangement? Both of them think they have IA over a barrel while acting like they're both wearing one. :laugh:

If Glendale think there's any chance that the Tempe arena proposal will fly, they would have plenty of incentive to undercut with an offer of their own.

Could you please articulate what sort of "involvement" you see between ASU and IA? Do you even know whether IA has shared any details of their financial plan with ASU? Does ASU know how much revenue from the arena and surrounding developments that IA will demand to refund their arena investment and cover ongoing subsidies for the Coyotes?

My guess is that ASU is keeping an open mind, but really don't yet have sufficient details to actually determine whether they can support it or not. My bet is that the NHL and IA will try to introduce a plan very late, using their typical brinksmanship to try to pressure other parties into a deal that provides maximum financial benefit and minimum financial risk to the Coyotes and the NHL. Once IA has presented the details of their plan we'll know better whether ASU is truly "involved" in this project.
 

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
36,763
3,220
Well mesa....
Well, Llama, it's good you're giving Mr. Leblanc advice, because I'm guessing he reads these posts. In the second link in your post #733 above, the one with the video clip with his wish for a share of the transaction privilege taxes, is another video where he says (paraphrasing): "I guess I shouldn't always be saying things will happen in two weeks - I read the social media, and maybe I shouldn't be doing that either, but they comment on it there, so I'll have to be more realistic and not say two weeks any more."

It's in one of the first videos in your link. I don't know what other social media would have multiple references to "two weeks" that he talks about - maybe the Arizona team page in HF Boards, but I'm guessing he's reading it here. If he is (or not), I'll give my take: I think the Coyotes' leadership takes some unwarranted flak here. I don't think they're "clowns" - I doubt I could run a franchise well if I had to. But they're woefully undercapitalized. I ran a much smaller business once, and that's always a killer. And as Mesa wrote above, the operating revenues will probably never be in the black. But more than anything else, given the history of bad faith before this ownership group even came on the scene, they need to be upfront with everybody about what they want to do, and how they want to accomplish it. Nobody in this saga has any credibility, not the NHL, not the franchise, not the politicians. And IceEdge hasn't done anything that I see to give fans, government, or observers like us that faith. Maybe it isn't even possible, given how badly Bettman/the NHL and others already poisoned the well. Strung out way too many people along the way, possibly including Mr. Leblanc and Co. themselves. A gigantic mess not entirely their fault.
... there is some validity to this opinion here, poster clearly hasnt "tried & convicted" LeBlanc & Company quite yet but then.... WG you havent been following this saga quite as closely as most of the regulars here have been (at least not to my knowledge based on posting history) so not sure if your fully informed or if you are that your perhaps being too kind (IMO) in cutting them that much slack....
You answered many of your own questions, most importantly you ask, "why did they put themselves in this untenable position?" Because they lack the experience to know better, Tony loves to hear himself blather away about nothing. He must have some delusional idea that GB will come riding in on a white horse and hand him a new arena. All he needs to do is talk needlessly about something he has no business attempting to orchestrate. Under normal working conditions he would have been let go years ago. Perhaps Barroway and Drummond are just smart enough to know what they don`t know. Rather than be made to look like fools they just trot out flappy mouth Tony to make a fool of himself. Honestly, why is this man still the mouthpiece for this organization? Being the face of the franchise has not helped their cause at all. In fact, his style and false bravado have now become the butt of too many jokes and innuendos related to his myriad of vocal miscues.

... its a corker. LeBlanc shouldve moved into Marketing & Sales immediately after the closing of the deal with Glendale, hired some experienced, smart, savvy & creative brains to take the tiller. He's done nothing but put both feet in his mouth since day one, been a detriment to what little chance that club & the building mightve had to effect a resurrection. They didnt hit the ground running, hit it with a thud and have rather than rolled forward tumbled backwards, something that seemed incomprehensible given the City of Glendales largess & having inherited a very bright mind & steadying hand in GM Don Maloney. Laid waste to some solid foundations, feeble minded & feeble handed. Just nuts. Its almost leads me to conclude that the NHL had to have known that this was all bound to happen, playing these guys just as they'd played Glendale and continue to try & play everyone & everything they can for all its worth. And if thats true, then like WildGopher I can actually cut them some slack and apportion the full blame on the NHL. However if their complicit, conspiring with the League, playing the roles of useful fools & accepting of it, following orders, hidden agenda then absolutely they deserve to be tarred & feathered and in considering all of their actions to date Im not quite there yet. I think theres a Dark Hand at work here, waters deeper than they appear. Thus far with IA Im reading more "incompetence" as opposed to some kind of Machiavellian hidden agenda bordering on the malevolent. Whomever concocted this scheme & handed off the team to rank amateurs like that had to have known what was likely to eventuate and if they didnt, God help the NHL.
 
Last edited:

TheLegend

Hardly Deactivated
Aug 30, 2009
37,168
29,740
Buzzing BoH
I actually did hear of a rumour, unsubstantiated, cant verify it but my source has been reliable but still, take it with a block of salt..... but.... according to this source an offer was recently made to IA to extend the current agreement as is for 10yrs, 12 month no penalty out-clause and it was rejected. IA wouldnt even meet to discuss it.... If this is true, and I think theres a good probability that it is, raises all kinds of questions. Setup for yet another 11th hour triple over-time Power Play. Demands of Glendale & it would seem of AEG to be forthcoming. More strange days dead ahead for unless this all some sort of elaborate facade, part of a scripted Exit Strategy they have no choice but to extend with AEG & Glendale and the terms offered as good as it gets. Yet with this crew, NHL included, its never good enough. Its never enough. Absolutely insatiable. Not happy unless theyve completely dismembered their victims.

Bet I know how that came about. If it's unsubstantiated then it's tin foil hat fodder.

I would also add, that IA supporters have made the claim on this forum that with ASU throwing their full support behind this project that the state would do whatever ASU has asked for. Yet, so far this bid has not even been sponsored. That coupled with the Regents statement, make me wonder just how strongly ASU is behind this project. IMO, they are likely just letting IA give it a shot. If it works..great, but if not, well the 16,000 seater was not in their plans anyways.

Never have I said ASU was "throwing their full support". Neither has Feckless nor anyone else. You just can't ignore the fact that they are involved in some fashion. :help:
 

Whileee

Registered User
May 29, 2010
46,134
33,328
Well mesa....
... there is some validity to this opinion here, poster clearly hasnt "tried & convicted" LeBlanc & Company quite yet but then.... WG you havent been following this saga quite as closely as most of the regulars here have been (at least not to my knowledge based on posting history) so not sure if your fully informed or if you are that your perhaps being too kind (IMO) in cutting them that much slack....


... its a corker. LeBlanc shouldve moved into Marketing & Sales immediately after the closing of the deal with Glendale, hired some experienced, smart, savvy & creative brains to take the tiller. He's done nothing but put both feet in his mouth since day one, been a detriment to what little chance that club & the building mightve had to effect a resurrection. They didnt hit the ground running, hit it with a thud and have rather than rolled forward tumbled backwards, something that seemed incomprehensible given the City of Glendales largess & having inherited a very bright mind & steadying hand in GM Don Maloney. Laid waste to some solid foundations, feeble minded & feeble handed. Just nuts. Its almost leads me to conclude that the NHL had to have known that this was all bound to happen, playing these guys just as they'd played Glendale and continue to try & play everyone & everything they can for all its worth. And if thats true, then like WildGopher I can actually cut them some slack and apportion the full blame on the NHL. However if their complicit, conspiring with the League, playing the roles of useful fools & accepting of it, following orders, hidden agenda then absolutely they deserve to be tarred & feathered and in considering all of their actions to date Im not quite there yet. I think theres a Dark Hand at work here, waters deeper than they appear.

I share the skepticism, K, and have ever since they signed the lease agreement with Glendale / GRA.

To me, the "temporary" financing of the purchase and the insistence on an "out clauses" were big red flags for me. I suspected that they were angling for a temporary solution and then to cash in with the "out clause" with a sale / relocation that would make the initial investors "whole". Subsequent to the deal, IA has done nothing to dispel my skepticism. They made paltry efforts to enhance marketing or improving the team, and they did nothing but annoy their new public partner and benefactor (City of Glendale). I think Glendale figured out early that IA wasn't really a serious partner looking for a real long-term partnership, and decided to find a way to terminate the lease and find a real arena manager that would provide them with a more financially feasible long-term solution for the GRA.

When Glendale pulled the plug on IA earlier than IA expected to make a move (i.e. 5-year out clause window), they found that there weren't any readily available relocation / sale options, so they had to dig in and try to minimize their losses. This included: 1) slashing costs for hockey operations; 2) temporizing with fans to give them the impression that they wouldn't relocate to avoid the financial calamity of one or two "lame duck" seasons in the Phoenix market. In the meantime, LeBlanc has every incentive to see if he can cook up some sort of financial miracle to keep them in the Phoenix market, with him in a senior role. This is his absolute dream job, and he likely knows that he's out looking for work if the team is sold and relocated. So, his Sisyphean task of chasing a new arena scheme serves to keep his dream alive, while at the same time playing to the larger objective of keeping the fans from abandoning ship altogether as long as the hope of a new arena and a long-term future in the Phoenix area is kept alive for the fans.

I realize that this narrative is a bleak one for local fans, and I might be much too cynical. But I just have never had any confidence in LeBlanc or IA to be capable of pulling this off, or being upfront with the fans and the public about their real situation and future plans. The deal with Glendale always seemed like a house of cards that didn't have a chance to be a permanent solution. In my view, the remaining die-hard fans have given LeBlanc and IA way too much credit and latitude, and I expect that he will end up disappointing them. Their purchase of the team was a scam, the way they approached the challenges in the market have been abysmal, and their plans for a new arena look like a huge longshot, punctuated by a long string of prevarications and delays that suggest deceptive motives.

Happy New Year, etc., etc.
 

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
36,763
3,220
Never have I said ASU was "throwing their full support". Neither has Feckless nor anyone else. You just can't ignore the fact that they are involved in some fashion. :help:

Clearly it's been discussed internally & privately yet they withhold any public confirmation & support which lets face it would lend considerable credence, weight & heft to IceArizona's ambitions. Maybe their doing all their talking through IA Lobbyists. No idea. But you'd think that for a project of this scale & magnitude that rather than just sitting in the backseat & saying nothing they'd kinda like to have at least one hand on the wheel no? This has to be sold to a number of stakeholders and you need some heavy artillery. All the public's seen & heard to date are a few flashes & pops from IA's vintage Lone Ranger Winchester Carbine... you know the kind TL.... with the cork bullet attached to a string.... only goes so far Man. :D
 

Fairview

Registered User
Jan 30, 2016
1,427
683
Bet I know how that came about. If it's unsubstantiated then it's tin foil hat fodder.



Never have I said ASU was "throwing their full support". Neither has Feckless nor anyone else. You just can't ignore the fact that they are involved in some fashion. :help:

Agreed, the commentary on this forum at that time was that IF ASU was fully on board with this plan, then they will have huge influence over the government as poster(s) claimed that what ASU wants ASU gets.
What I said , if you read my post was that IF ASU is strongly behind this project, that we have not seen any evidence of that, based on the fact that so far...no one has sponsored the bill.
I am just using what certain posters claimed would be the result of ASU involvement, and noting that so far there does not seem to be any results that support that they are involved.
If ASU is on board, when do you think they will step out from behind the curtain and help IA push this through?
 
Last edited:

CasualFan

Tortious Beadicus
Nov 27, 2009
3,215
0
Bay Area, CA
On the first point, we really don't know anything about the nature of the relationship between IA and ASU. Unless I've missed something, there has been no comment from ASU about the project. We know the developer hired by ASU has given some support, but that's it.

I would disagree entirely. Now let's see if I can do it respectfully:

We know that after a public process, ASU created an athletics facilities district plan (call ASU the boss). We know that after a public process, Catellus was awarded a contract (call Catellus the project manager). We know the boss wants the project manager to execute the plan and part of that is marketing development opportunities for the land inside the district. IA was attracted to one of those development opportunities. The project manager reported that they were entering negotiations with IA. The AZ Board of Regents reported that the bosses still have to approve any big changes to the plan (see public process in 1st sentence above). That all seems to make the nature of the relationship between ASU and IA really clear: the university has a ******** of prime real estate available and the project manager they hired is marketing it. IA said let's use some of it for a development that would include a new arena that the NHL team could play in. Arenas, hotels, etc seem like pretty good fits for mixed-use university facilities districts, don't you think? The professional sports team synergy seems pretty nice too. The bosses should be pleased with that... as long as it doesn't expose them to any legitimate public process problems (see 1st sentence above again).

How are they actually going to finance it without junking up the AFD plan? Lots of unknowns there. But the relationships all seem clear; fully and properly sanctioned by ASU. Catellus, IA and whichever subdeveloper(s) are trying to come up with an agreement. Sounds like some folks are going to head on over to the capital building, see if there's any money in that banana stand...
 

Tom ServoMST3K

In search of a Steinbach Hero
Nov 2, 2010
27,814
18,620
What's your excuse?
I would disagree entirely. Now let's see if I can do it respectfully:

We know that after a public process, ASU created an athletics facilities district plan (call ASU the boss). We know that after a public process, Catellus was awarded a contract (call Catellus the project manager). We know the boss wants the project manager to execute the plan and part of that is marketing development opportunities for the land inside the district. IA was attracted to one of those development opportunities. The project manager reported that they were entering negotiations with IA. The AZ Board of Regents reported that the bosses still have to approve any big changes to the plan (see public process in 1st sentence above). That all seems to make the nature of the relationship between ASU and IA really clear: the university has a ******** of prime real estate available and the project manager they hired is marketing it. IA said let's use some of it for a development that would include a new arena that the NHL team could play in. Arenas, hotels, etc seem like pretty good fits for mixed-use university facilities districts, don't you think? The professional sports team synergy seems pretty nice too. The bosses should be pleased with that... as long as it doesn't expose them to any legitimate public process problems (see 1st sentence above again).

How are they actually going to finance it without junking up the AFD plan? Lots of unknowns there. But the relationships all seem clear; fully and properly sanctioned by ASU. Catellus, IA and whichever subdeveloper(s) are trying to come up with an agreement. Sounds like some folks are going to head on over to the capital building, see if there's any money in that banana stand...

I feel like we're approaching these things from a different perspective.

Right now the coyotes are in a PR war, battling for the life of the franchise. An ASU representative coming out and saying:

"What a great opportunity this is to work with the NHL and coyotes to bring a state of the art facility to our campus."

is a no brainer.

They're behind the eight-ball considering their history with public funding, so they need all the help they can get, and this one is so easy. It would help lay a foundation and make a great link to share with the legislature if they vote on this.

Not only did that not happen, ASU wasn't even involved in the press conference announcing the building. That throws up a million red flags for me. It tells me that ASU doesn't believe in this project.
 

Fairview

Registered User
Jan 30, 2016
1,427
683
So,essentially this is IA ball to carry. If they can complete the deal with the developer then ASU will be pleased. If not, then the developer will find someone else with another project and ASU will still be pleased. They are fine with either result.
 

WildGopher

Registered User
Jun 13, 2012
1,072
159
... there is some validity to this opinion here, poster clearly hasnt "tried & convicted" LeBlanc & Company quite yet but then.... WG you havent been following this saga quite as closely as most of the regulars here have been (at least not to my knowledge based on posting history) so not sure if your fully informed or if you are that your perhaps being too kind (IMO) in cutting them that much slack....

A little context for my comment might help. It was in the context of an earlier video link that suggested LeBlanc might be reading our board. Certainly if LeBlanc himself isn't reading these, someone at the Coyotes should be. If so, it was a chance to send a message to "be open, honest with the fans," etc. In that context, I wasn't going to blast him.

But I do take issue with one-sentence posts that call someone a clown, without back-up. Contrast that with some better posts after my comment. Mesa, Whileee, you, maybe others had posts that listed some of the things IA and the NHL had done wrong. Those are actual facts, evidence. That's what persuades and illuminates, not ad hominems. Actually, that's why I stay on these boards - there's enough actual fact and information posted to make it worthwhile, which I can't say about other social media I've long since dropped off of.

Oh, and I've been faithfully following this saga for some time - on BOH since the bankruptcy. For anyone interested in business, government, and hockey, it's addictive. Was just a reader for years, then started posting about 4 years ago, but only post occasionally. But I actually got involved in the issue before ever posting. Remember how everyone was so surprised when Glendale popped for the 2nd $25 million payment? Well, I wasn't posting then, so I didn't report it to these boards, but about two months before, Bettman was asked in a presser what might happen, and in his smirky way, he gave an answer that subtly hinted that Glendale might pay again. It looked like what he might be angling for was huge annual subsidies (which he kind of did later with the $15 million AMFs), so being a big opponent of subsidies to businesses, I contacted a political group in the West Valley with ties to Glendale (not Goldwater), hoping they'd lobby a council member or two. Little or nothing came of it, smirky Gary got his money, and the rest is history. But I was at least tangentially involved years ago. I'm certainly on to Bettman's deceptions, but I just don't have the facts to know if Bettman has lied through his teeth to LeBlanc (I don't put it past him after what he and Daley did to Glendale), or if LeBlanc is part of a deception himself, or if he's just winging things in a desperate effort to keep his franchise afloat. Maybe all of the above. Time will tell.
 

aqib

Registered User
Feb 13, 2012
5,326
1,368
I share the skepticism, K, and have ever since they signed the lease agreement with Glendale / GRA.

To me, the "temporary" financing of the purchase and the insistence on an "out clauses" were big red flags for me. I suspected that they were angling for a temporary solution and then to cash in with the "out clause" with a sale / relocation that would make the initial investors "whole". Subsequent to the deal, IA has done nothing to dispel my skepticism. They made paltry efforts to enhance marketing or improving the team, and they did nothing but annoy their new public partner and benefactor (City of Glendale). I think Glendale figured out early that IA wasn't really a serious partner looking for a real long-term partnership, and decided to find a way to terminate the lease and find a real arena manager that would provide them with a more financially feasible long-term solution for the GRA.

When Glendale pulled the plug on IA earlier than IA expected to make a move (i.e. 5-year out clause window), they found that there weren't any readily available relocation / sale options, so they had to dig in and try to minimize their losses. This included: 1) slashing costs for hockey operations; 2) temporizing with fans to give them the impression that they wouldn't relocate to avoid the financial calamity of one or two "lame duck" seasons in the Phoenix market. In the meantime, LeBlanc has every incentive to see if he can cook up some sort of financial miracle to keep them in the Phoenix market, with him in a senior role. This is his absolute dream job, and he likely knows that he's out looking for work if the team is sold and relocated. So, his Sisyphean task of chasing a new arena scheme serves to keep his dream alive, while at the same time playing to the larger objective of keeping the fans from abandoning ship altogether as long as the hope of a new arena and a long-term future in the Phoenix area is kept alive for the fans.

As much as I have mocked IA and LeBlanc, he did have a chance to move when the AMF was voided and chose not to.
 

Llama19

Registered User
Jan 19, 2013
7,282
1,122
Outside GZ
As much as I have mocked IA and LeBlanc, he did have a chance to move when the AMF was voided and chose not to.

He may not have wanted to move, as it seemed to me that he had no one to blame but himself...

But, he may have to once all likely 'subsidies' are exhausted...
 

Jeffrey93

Registered User
Nov 7, 2007
4,335
46
I'm pretty sure I asked a week or more ago if this new arena talk was a 'done deal' and I was told (if I recall correctly.....errr....iirc) that it was.

Doesn't seem that way from what I'm reading.

How anyone that could even be loosely judged to be 'sane' would dare enter into an agreement with this franchise is beyond me. Look at the track record....nevermind the on-ice or the financials.....just the lease issues, and the fact that after the league pulled out all the stops to save Glendale this franchise is almost immediately looking elsewhere afterward.

I mean....the sense I got from the NHL at the bankruptcy hearings is that they don't bail on their markets. Glendale built a rink and owes a pretty penny for it, so the league is going to make sure they give it the 'college try' to make it work for their sake. Otherwise.....cities would be less likely to fork over dough for new buildings across the league.

Not so long after.....the Owners are actively looking to build another venue while still playing in Glendale.

If I were Bettman I'd be fuming. To the point of purchasing the team and selling it for relocation fuming. If I were Glendale I'd be thinking "Damn...we should've taken that Canadian guy's money!". And, if I were ASU I'd be thinking "I don't want to agree to a coffee with these guys....we'll end up in 10 years of litigation over it!".

One more 'If I were'......If I were the Coyotes Ownership.....and you're going to bail on Glendale.....why bail locally? Either sell for relocation and make some good coin (even after paying back what you owe the NHL....from what I've heard).....or get your franchise into a decent market where this isn't a constant issue?


The Suns are going to want a new arena soon.....why on earth wouldn't current Coyotes ownership be partnering with them and the city of Phoenix to build a new rink.......why would they be trying to go it alone....again?

So much of this situation has boggled my mind.....and it's been doing that for the better part of a decade now. Must be tiresome for actual fans.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad