Player Discussion Phillip Danault - The Centermania Edition

[BaseballCoach]

Where are you going with the Kovalchuk thing ? When you say "When Kovalchuk was put on a line with a better center his scoring dried up. Seems odd don't you think". You mean that Danault is better than Suzuki offensively ? Just to be sure.

Just like Domi last year, Tatar is having a career year. How ? Why ? I don't know. But it's certainly not because of Danault. Tatar is not a PPG player, but with a better centre than Danault, he will produce more than his 55-60 points he does with us.

When I watch Danault, I see a guy who can't score goals, can't make great passes on a regular basis, a guy with hands of stone. I can't help thinking what Tatar and Gallagher can do with a good/great centre. That's why I think he's dragging back his line offensively.

He's not a great goalscorer, but his passes are better than you think, and his line gets a lot of goals off tenacious forechecking. However, if skill were not involved, then surely Nate Thompson or Torrey Mitchell could do the same job, right? Anyone can forecheck, right?

And Tatar is on his way to 70-75 points, not 55-60. He already has 61 in 67 games.

 

[Archijerej]

But that is exactly the problem. I am not attacking him for being him, I am pointing him out as more of a indication at how poorly this team is constructed. To have him as your most mins top line center is very indicative of the position this team currently finds itself sitting in

Who is disputing that?

 

[1909]

Danault is the perfect centerman for tatar and Gally for the time being. They love playing with each other. They are very good against other top lines. Gally and Tatar love having a center like Danault with them.

Until and IF suzuki or anybody else prove that they can handle first line duties, Danault will keep his spot.

 

[ahmedou]

Where are you now when we need ya...

 

[blarneylad]

Who is disputing that?

A few fellas. When you chirp Danault they get defensive suggesting he is the last player to blame.

I’m not blaming Danault for losing, I am blaming the fact that we have regressed from Koivu to Plekanec to Danault.

 

[1909]

A few fellas. When you chirp Danault they get defensive suggesting he is the last player to blame.

I’m not blaming Danault for losing, I am blaming the fact that we have regressed from Koivu to Plekanec to Danault.

Who's to be blamed ? Management, of course. Unable to get a friggin #1 centerman since ages.

 

[blarneylad]

Who's to be blamed ? Management, of course. Unable to get a friggin #1 centerman since ages.

That is precisely who I am blaming. 13 goal career high 27 year old is our top line center.

 

[Archijerej]

When you chirp Danault they get defensive suggesting he is the last player to blame.

Aren't they right though? You yourself seem to suggest there's absolutely no reason to chirp Danault and that he's not to be blamed that he happens to be the best center on this team.

 

[cphabs]

Danault is the perfect centerman for tatar and Gally for the time being. They love playing with each other. They are very good against other top lines. Gally and Tatar love having a center like Danault with them.

Until and IF suzuki or anybody else prove that they can handle first line duties, Danault will keep his spot.

Drouin?

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

A few fellas. When you chirp Danault they get defensive suggesting he is the last player to blame.

I’m not blaming Danault for losing, I am blaming the fact that we have regressed from Koivu to Plekanec to Danault.

I don't see Danault as the prolem of the Habs. Danault is in the positive list of the players plus minus. He is representative of the Habs organisation as position per position he stands. If we compare Danault with Crosby or McKinnon, if Danault is 75% of those best in NHL, so following this exemple each winger, 3rd center, defense corp and second line is 75% of what NHL great teams have best.
Except maybe Price, Weber and Gallagher, Habs players are between 65% to 85% of what's best position player is per position. Danault isn't symptomatic, he is just reprentative of the whole organisation.

 

[blarneylad]

Aren't they right though? You yourself seem to suggest there's absolutely no reason to chirp Danault and that he's not to be blamed that he happens to be the best center on this team.

See my explanation has gone right over your head

 

[Archijerej]

See my explanation has gone right over your head

So maybe you'll express it more clearly?

How many Danault's defenders claim that having him as your best center is ideal for a good team?

 

[blarneylad]

So maybe you'll express it more clearly?

How many Danault's defenders claim that having him as your best center is ideal for a good team?

It’s when myself or others point out that his 3 goals in 30 games is pathetic especially pathetic for a 1stline center and the rebuttal is that he isn’t the problem.

As 1909 said, having guys play above the self in this org has been going on for 20+years now. Danault is in a long line of the underachieving mediocrity this team has suffered for long

 

[Sorinth]

Yes, Danault is a similar player to Eller, who is a great 3rd liner.

If we replace Danault with Mackinnon, Backstrom, Kuznetsov, the line will produce better numbers offensively. I don't know how many more points Tatar and Gally would get, but I know that they won't need to work as hard as with Danault to get offensive opportunities, this will allow them to have more energy to do other things, like defending. #1C are mostly possession centre and they have the ability to find passing lanes that Danault can't find. They are also less predictable than Danault, they can protect the puck well, can keep the puck in tight space thanks to their great hands, they can score goals, they have the ability to attract the opponents toward them... If you think otherwise, explain your point.

What are you advocating here ? To keep Danault, because the improvement is not worth it ? Or that Danault is a #1C ? Or that the line won't improve, because Tatar-Danault-Gally have chemistry ?

Sure if they played with 100 point center they would do better. But we don't have a 100 elite #1 center, we have Domi and Suzuki. The question isn't about replacing Danault with McDavid, everybody would do that, it's about whether Suzuki or Domi would actually be better. I personally doubt Domi would, Suzuki isn't there yet because he's a rookie but hopefully in the next few years he will.

But it's ironic that you claim Danault is a 3rd liner, yet all your examples are of elite #1 centers. If Danault is a 3rd liner like you claim, then shouldn't his wingers do better when centered by 2nd liners like Henrique, an over the hill Getzlaf, or Pageau? And yet I have a hard time believe Tatar and Gallagher would be that much more productive with Pageau as their center.

Kovalchuk started the season with L.A and had 8 points in 11 games mostly with scrubs. He does not need Danault to produce.

Gallagher was on pace for 28 goals in his rookie year with a young Eller, in 2015-2016 he was at the same pace as he's today. Gallagher is a 30-goal scorer without Danault, stop acting like he's scoring 30+ goals because of Danault.

I've never claimed Gallagher scores 30 goals because of Danault, but that's not what you claimed. Your claim is that Danault brings his linemates down, his lack of offence is supposedly bringing their goal/point totals down. Yet they've been at their best/set career highs with him. It's illogical, if Danault was bringing them down and they still did so well it must mean their previous linemates were even bigger drags on their production. And frankly I find it hard to believe that Larkin and Zetterberg brought down his production.

Danault's takeaway stat is similar to Domi and Suzuki.

Giveaway and takeaway stats are less then useless. But if you really believe it means something then I would point out that both Tatar and Gallagher's takeaways per 60 minutes increased significantly since being paired with Danault, quite possibly because Danault's forecheck forces opposing players into making bad decisions which lead directly to turnovers.

 

[Sorinth]

Tatar was a superstar on detroit don't kid yourself. He isn't even on the level now that he was then. Many Detroit fans had him untouchable and in the same echelon as zederburg. Of course fans are homers-just like some are towards Phil, but Tatar was a very good talent not just a 45 point player. The difference is he is passing more now. He scored 29 goals in his third season.

There was a time Galchenyuk and Kotkaniemi were untouchable. Many had Tinordi and Beaulieu as untouchables. A poster once claimed he wouldn't give up Gallagher for Ovechkin 1 for 1. I wouldn't put much stock in that sort of talk.

Superstars don't average 45 points a season with a career high of 56 points. Even 29 goals is no where close to Superstar level. I mean Plekanec also scored 29 goals in his 3rd NHL season, and had 13 more assists to boot, was he considered a Superstar?

 

[1909]

It’s when myself or others point out that his 3 goals in 30 games is pathetic especially pathetic for a 1stline center and the rebuttal is that he isn’t the problem.

As 1909 said, having guys play above the self in this org has been going on for 20+years now. Danault is in a long line of the underachieving mediocrity this team has suffered for long

But Danault remains a good player to have, anyway. Just not your ideal, typical #1 centerman.

 

[Archijerej]

It’s when myself or others point out that his 3 goals in 30 games is pathetic especially pathetic for a 1stline center and the rebuttal is that he isn’t the problem.

Well, again, he isn't the problem. The fact that he's the best center on this team is.

As 1909 said, having guys play above the self in this org has been going on for 20+years now. Danault is in a long line of the underachieving mediocrity this team has suffered for long

Danault is underachieving as a player? I'd swear the opposite was the case. I've never envisioned this kind of progress when we acquired him.

 

[blarneylad]

But Danault remains a good player to have, anyway. Just not your ideal, typical #1 centerman.

I would keep him if his cap hit remains below 5m and he slots in as a veteran 3rd line who can play up in case of injury.

As long as he is the best option for 1st line center Bergevin isn’t doing his job. They need to explore the market to no end. And that includes potentially using Danault as a part of the package

 

[blarneylad]

Well, again, he isn't the problem. The fact that he's the best center on this team is.

100% my point! And when I make fun of him it is in jest of the team not him.

I may not be the most articulate lol

 

[Sorinth]

A few fellas. When you chirp Danault they get defensive suggesting he is the last player to blame.

I’m not blaming Danault for losing, I am blaming the fact that we have regressed from Koivu to Plekanec to Danault.

I'm starting to feel like Danault might be the better player then Plekanec was. It's hard to say for sure since Plekanec was stuck behind Desharnais for so many years, so we don't know how much that hurt his numbers. If Plekanec was really a 70 point center who got held back then sure he's ahead of Danault, if on the other hand he's closer to the 60 point center, then I'd put Danault ahead of him.

Neither player was close to Koivu in his prime.

But regardless why chirp Danault at all if you think the problem is Bergevin?

 

[blarneylad]

I'm starting to feel like Danault might be the better player then Plekanec was. It's hard to say for sure since Plekanec was stuck behind Desharnais for so many years, so we don't know how much that hurt his numbers. If Plekanec was really a 70 point center who got held back then sure he's ahead of Danault, if on the other hand he's closer to the 60 point center, then I'd put Danault ahead of him.

Neither player was close to Koivu in his prime.

But regardless why chirp Danault at all if you think the problem is Bergevin?

Because me making fun of him is indicative of how bad the team is. He is not a 1st line center

Also Pleks was a 7 time 20 goal scorer. At 24 he had 29 goals and 69 point season.

At 27 years old Danault has yet to score 20 or break the 60 point barrier.

Plekanec was also a great two way center. A true 2nd line center or even a great one. Still not a 1st line center though. Danault I slot right below. Great 3rd line center but if you have a great 1st line center Danault would be way more than fine as your number 2.

Let’s hope Suzuki or Kotkaniemi can be the true number 1 this team has lacked forever

 

[DAChampion]

I'm starting to feel like Danault might be the better player then Plekanec was. It's hard to say for sure since Plekanec was stuck behind Desharnais for so many years, so we don't know how much that hurt his numbers. If Plekanec was really a 70 point center who got held back then sure he's ahead of Danault, if on the other hand he's closer to the 60 point center, then I'd put Danault ahead of him.

Neither player was close to Koivu in his prime.

But regardless why chirp Danault at all if you think the problem is Bergevin?

I just don't see how you can argue that Danault is better than Plekanec was. Maybe in terms of value since his cap hit us lower.

 

[BaseballCoach]

I'm starting to feel like Danault might be the better player then Plekanec was. It's hard to say for sure since Plekanec was stuck behind Desharnais for so many years, so we don't know how much that hurt his numbers. If Plekanec was really a 70 point center who got held back then sure he's ahead of Danault, if on the other hand he's closer to the 60 point center, then I'd put Danault ahead of him.

Neither player was close to Koivu in his prime.

But regardless why chirp Danault at all if you think the problem is Bergevin?

I think it makes sense to measure the production of players in different years and different emphasis on offence through a relative stat.

In 2007-08, Plekanec scored 69 points with Kovalev having 84 points. Pleks was 23rd in the league in points for centres.
In 2008-09, Plekanec scored 39 points with Kovalev having 65 points. Pleks was 68th in the league in points for centres. However, he still scored 20 goals (39th)
In 2009-10, Plekanec scored 70 points, tops on the team, with Cammaleri having 50 points. Pleks was 13th in the league in points for centres.
However, at 27, that was his second to last excellent season offensively. He hit 60 points (24th) one more time in the next eight years, in 2014-15.

In 2018-19, Danault scored 53 points with Tatar having 58 points. Danault was 49th in the league in points for centres.
In 2019-20, Danault has scored 45 points in 67 games, with Tatar having 61 points. Danault is 37th in the league in points for centres.

I think it is safe to say that so far in his career, Danault has not reached Plekanec's level offensively. But since Plekanec dropped off a bit after age 27, Danault may end up with similar stats when we check in a few years from now.

 

[blarneylad]

I think it makes sense to measure the production of players in different years and different emphasis on offence through a relative stat.

In 2007-08, Plekanec scored 69 points with Kovalev having 84 points. Pleks was 23rd in the league in points for centres.
In 2008-09, Plekanec scored 39 points with Kovalev having 65 points. Pleks was 68th in the league in points for centres. However, he still scored 20 goals (39th)
In 2009-10, Plekanec scored 70 points, tops on the team, with Cammaleri having 50 points. Pleks was 13th in the league in points for centres.
However, at 27, that was his second to last excellent season offensively. He hit 60 points (24th) one more time in the next eight years, in 2014-15.

In 2018-19, Danault scored 53 points with Tatar having 58 points. Danault was 49th in the league in points for centres.
In 2019-20, Danault has scored 45 points in 67 games, with Tatar having 61 points. Danault is 37th in the league in points for centres.

I think it is safe to say that so far in his career, Danault has not reached Plekanec's level offensively. But since Plekanec dropped off a bit after age 27, Danault may end up with similar stats when we check in a few years from now.

Good point, I didn’t even factor into the debate that scoring went up last year. And I am not sure but I believe is up this year too

Thus inflating everyone’s stats

 

[MTL-rules]

It’s when myself or others point out that his 3 goals in 30 games is pathetic especially pathetic for a 1stline center and the rebuttal is that he isn’t the problem.

As 1909 said, having guys play above the self in this org has been going on for 20+years now. Danault is in a long line of the underachieving mediocrity this team has suffered for long

Just like considering Gallagher a first line RW... yet, most people are in love with the guy.