Player Discussion Phillip Danault - The Centermania Edition

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Doc McKenna

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A few fellas. When you chirp Danault they get defensive suggesting he is the last player to blame.

I’m not blaming Danault for losing, I am blaming the fact that we have regressed from Koivu to Plekanec to Danault.
Back when they tried to run koivu out of town for not being a 1C:eek:

Anyone else think this team would be worse with a 30 year old koivu replacing anyone on the habs this year? Yet we complained he wasn't worthy of being our Captain, or the 1C. Just not competitive with a guy who was a consistant .8 + PPG player. Who turned it up in the playoffs. Oh right we can't judge this team because no one takes the team on their back the way Saku would. Therefore we haven't even seen a playoffs for most of the players that Mac Burgerbin has won all his trades with.
 

Sorinth

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I just don't see how you can argue that Danault is better than Plekanec was. Maybe in terms of value since his cap hit us lower.

I'll answer to @BaseballCoach and @blarneylad at the same time.

In essence the argument for Danault being the better player comes down to how much you value ES scoring vs overall scoring. Plekanec was an underrated PP player, and got quite a lot of his points on the PP. Danault on the other hand doesn't seem all that good on the PP, so yeah in terms of total points Plekanec will outdo Danault simply because the PP is such a major source of scoring in the NHL.

However most teams don't lack for players that are decent PP players, so Danault not being a good PP player doesn't matter much to me. At the end of the day it's pretty easy/cheap to acquire a good PP player, it's much harder/more expensive to get a good ES player.

For reference Plekanec averaged 35 ESP (Excluding his rookie+last few years) per 82 games whereas Danault the last two season's has him at 49. Plekanec's best season was 45 ESP, followed by a couple 41 seasons.

Now I fully admit this is an evaluation that is skewed in Danault's favour to begin with as I'm comparing essentially Danault's best seasons with most of Plekanec's career. Plekanec had a fairly up/down career even ignoring his final few years, which is why in my OP I even mentioned this is somewhat based on how you view Plekanec's numbers. If the 70 point Plekanec was the true Plekanec and he was held back those others years by terrible coach/usage/linemates then yeah he's better then Danault. But I'm not prepared to put Plekanec's inconsistency solely down to that. I consider Plekanec more of a 60 point center, and in that case Danault's better even-strength scoring puts him ahead.
 
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Doc McKenna

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There was a time Galchenyuk and Kotkaniemi were untouchable. Many had Tinordi and Beaulieu as untouchables. A poster once claimed he wouldn't give up Gallagher for Ovechkin 1 for 1. I wouldn't put much stock in that sort of talk.

Superstars don't average 45 points a season with a career high of 56 points. Even 29 goals is no where close to Superstar level. I mean Plekanec also scored 29 goals in his 3rd NHL season, and had 13 more assists to boot, was he considered a Superstar?
To some on here yes he was. I couldn't stand the guy because he was a massive puck hog when he wasn't playing with The Enigma. But Pleks was also a 70 point guy, so is it any surprise Tatar is also now closing in on that mark. I don't think its Danault that is suddenly elevating this guy to that level though. He is very skilled-which is the point about Detroit. They saw his skill level was extremely high. That is what got them excited for him. He was a goal scoring winger that passed a lot less. He likely won't hit 30 goals year, but you downplay his 29 goals he had with far fewer assists. You become a complete player by being allowed to grow through mistakes. Not getting benched for every mistake like youngsters in montreal.
 

Sorinth

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To some on here yes he was. I couldn't stand the guy because he was a massive puck hog when he wasn't playing with The Enigma. But Pleks was also a 70 point guy, so is it any surprise Tatar is also now closing in on that mark. I don't think its Danault that is suddenly elevating this guy to that level though. He is very skilled-which is the point about Detroit. They saw his skill level was extremely high. That is what got them excited for him. He was a goal scoring winger that passed a lot less. He likely won't hit 30 goals year, but you downplay his 29 goals he had with far fewer assists. You become a complete player by being allowed to grow through mistakes. Not getting benched for every mistake like youngsters in montreal.

29/30 goals is very good I'm not downplaying it, but it's simply not superstar level. And I can't think of any poster who ever claimed Plekanec was a superstar either.
 
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ZUKI

I hate the haters...
Oct 23, 2003
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We have a very strong line , facing best opposite lines and dominating them most of the time . I don't see a problem there .
We have a very promising Suzuki, a Domi that can play both centre or wing and a Drouin that was the best player of the team before he was injured . Those 3 amigos have much skills than Tatar, Danault and Gallagher ( even if the will probably never score 30 goals/season )

It's to these players to elevate their game and slowly get more minutes if they outplay Danault's line .
 
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CristianoRonaldo

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If you can only name 35 better centers, that would put him as a high end 2nd line center. Yet his detractors claim he's a high end 3rd line center. It doesn't add up.

What are you talking about, I said at least 35, because I know that he won't even be able to name 25 RW better than Gally. I'll answer to your long post after, because I'm not at home.
 

Sorinth

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What are you talking about, I said at least 35, because I know that he won't even be able to name 25 RW better than Gally. I'll answer to your long post after, because I'm not at home.

Generally by saying "at least X", it means close to that number. So yeah maybe instead of 35 you would actually end up with 40, but it's unlikely to be 50 or 60+ because otherwise you would have used a bigger number when saying "at least".
 
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blarneylad

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I'll answer to @BaseballCoach and @blarneylad at the same time.

In essence the argument for Danault being the better player comes down to how much you value ES scoring vs overall scoring. Plekanec was an underrated PP player, and got quite a lot of his points on the PP. Danault on the other hand doesn't seem all that good on the PP, so yeah in terms of total points Plekanec will outdo Danault simply because the PP is such a major source of scoring in the NHL.

However most teams don't lack for players that are decent PP players, so Danault not being a good PP player doesn't matter much to me. At the end of the day it's pretty easy/cheap to acquire a good PP player, it's much harder/more expensive to get a good ES player.

For reference Plekanec averaged 35 ESP (Excluding his rookie+last few years) per 82 games whereas Danault the last two season's has him at 49. Plekanec's best season was 45 ESP, followed by a couple 41 seasons.

Now I fully admit this is an evaluation that is skewed in Danault's favour to begin with as I'm comparing essentially Danault's best seasons with most of Plekanec's career. Plekanec had a fairly up/down career even ignoring his final few years, which is why in my OP I even mentioned this is somewhat based on how you view Plekanec's numbers. If the 70 point Plekanec was the true Plekanec and he was held back those others years by terrible coach/usage/linemates then yeah he's better then Danault. But I'm not prepared to put Plekanec's inconsistency solely down to that. I consider Plekanec more of a 60 point center, and in that case Danault's better even-strength scoring puts him ahead.
Another interesting take!

But I think that points to Danault being better suited as a 3rd line center. Have him center if the wingers that will pk. Ie Byron and Lehkonen.

Suzuki undoubtedly is ready to take the reigns. I would actually give him his shot now to be honest this season is lost. I’d love to see even Gallagher with Domi as I believe those two would connect.
 

CristianoRonaldo

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Generally by saying "at least X", it means close to that number. So yeah maybe instead of 35 you would actually end up with 40, but it's unlikely to be 50 or 60+ because otherwise you would have used a bigger number when saying "at least".

EVGENY KUZNETSOV
NICKLAS BACKSTROM
PAUL STASTNY
WILLIAM KARLSSON
BO HORVAT
ELIAS PETTERSSON
J.T. MILLER
AUSTON MATTHEWS
JOHN TAVARES
STEVEN STAMKOS
MARK SCHEIFELE
BRAYDEN SCHENN
RYAN O'REILLY
ROBERT THOMAS
STEVEN STAMKOS
LOGAN COUTURE
TOMAS HERTL
SIDNEY CROSBY
EVGENI MALKIN
SEAN COUTURIER
CLAUDE GIROUX
MIKA ZIBANEJAD
MATHEW BARZAL
BROCK NELSON
NICO HISCHIER
MATT DUCHENE
RYAN JOHANSEN
NICK SUZUKI
MAX DOMI
ERIC STAAL
ANZE KOPITAR
ALEKSANDER BARKOV
CONNOR MCDAVID
LEON DRAISAITL
DYLAN LARKIN
TYLER SEGUIN
NATHAN MACKINNON
NAZEM KADRI
JONATHAN TOEWS
SEBASTIAN AHO
SEAN MONAHAN
JACK EICHEL
PATRICE BERGERON
DAVID KREJCI
CLAYTON KELLER




Similar players (Too close to call, some will prefer them to Danault, others will not)
KEVIN HAYES
RYAN STROME
JEAN-GABRIEL PAGEAU
RYAN NUGENT-HOPKINS
VINCENT TROCHECK
MIKAEL BACKLUND
ADAM HENRIQUE
JOE PAVELSKI
DYLAN STROME
LARS ELLER

55 names.
 

Sorinth

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EVGENY KUZNETSOV
NICKLAS BACKSTROM
PAUL STASTNY
WILLIAM KARLSSON
BO HORVAT
ELIAS PETTERSSON
J.T. MILLER
AUSTON MATTHEWS
JOHN TAVARES
STEVEN STAMKOS
MARK SCHEIFELE
BRAYDEN SCHENN
RYAN O'REILLY
ROBERT THOMAS
STEVEN STAMKOS
LOGAN COUTURE
TOMAS HERTL
SIDNEY CROSBY
EVGENI MALKIN
SEAN COUTURIER
CLAUDE GIROUX
MIKA ZIBANEJAD
MATHEW BARZAL
BROCK NELSON
NICO HISCHIER
MATT DUCHENE
RYAN JOHANSEN
NICK SUZUKI
MAX DOMI
ERIC STAAL
ANZE KOPITAR
ALEKSANDER BARKOV
CONNOR MCDAVID
LEON DRAISAITL
DYLAN LARKIN
TYLER SEGUIN
NATHAN MACKINNON
NAZEM KADRI
JONATHAN TOEWS
SEBASTIAN AHO
SEAN MONAHAN
JACK EICHEL
PATRICE BERGERON
DAVID KREJCI
CLAYTON KELLER




Similar players (Too close to call, some will prefer them to Danault, others will not)
KEVIN HAYES
RYAN STROME
JEAN-GABRIEL PAGEAU
RYAN NUGENT-HOPKINS
VINCENT TROCHECK
MIKAEL BACKLUND
ADAM HENRIQUE
JOE PAVELSKI
DYLAN STROME
LARS ELLER

55 names.

First off, thanks for providing the list. I certainly disagree with a number of names, but I'm not really interested in debating each name.

But haven't you proven my point, your own list puts Danault somewhere as 46-56 best center which makes him a 2nd line center.
 
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expy

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Personally, I don't really like Danault.

Most of the time it looks like he half-asses his plays. Cannot for his life make a decent pass, and he's the centerman.

He's a fringe 2nd line centre, and a decent third line centre. But 1st line centre? Please.

The next GM needs to fix the centre position, even if it means overpaying.
 

Sorinth

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Jan 18, 2013
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Another interesting take!

But I think that points to Danault being better suited as a 3rd line center. Have him center if the wingers that will pk. Ie Byron and Lehkonen.

Suzuki undoubtedly is ready to take the reigns. I would actually give him his shot now to be honest this season is lost. I’d love to see even Gallagher with Domi as I believe those two would connect.

Isn't it better to have your top-6 be strong ES players, and then if you need PP help grab a third liner whose a PP specialist?

As for Suzuki, I don't think it's set in stone just yet, but yeah there's a good chance he's better right now or will soon surpass Danault. The only question we should be asking ourselves is what gives Suzuki the best chance at being that elite #1 center?

I think there's a strong case to be made that we should continue to try and shelter Suzuki somewhat. Give him more responsibility slowly, the worst possible thing is too anoint him #1 center, have him go up against teams best defenceman/players and struggle. It seems far better to have him go up against the 2nd line/defensive pairing for as long as possible. If he continues to get better teams will end up making that adjustment themselves and focus their defensive efforts against Suzuki's line, at which point we might want to readjust and provide him the best winger support we can.
 

CristianoRonaldo

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Apr 7, 2014
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In your head
First off, thanks for providing the list. I certainly disagree with a number of names, but I'm not really interested in debating each name.

But haven't you proven my point, your own list puts Danault somewhere as 46-56 best center which makes him a 2nd line center.

You are welcome. Can you please name the players you don't agree with ?

You know that 60 is pretty much a third liner, right ? And that I obviously forgot some names. You are free to believe what you want.
 
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waffledave

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Aug 22, 2004
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Ideally, he plays a key role on the 3rd line with all focus on matchups and shutting down the opposition. He will get points, maybe less but not much less. Fills in for key draws, used in key situations. A real, golden era type 3rd line C. Behind 2 guys with high end offensive production.

In the interim I am very happy with him as a #2 because he brings a lot in addition to points, enough to justify the 5-10 pt difference in production compared to some other #2s. And an offensive breakout is not completely out of the question.
 

LaP

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I'll answer to @BaseballCoach and @blarneylad at the same time.

In essence the argument for Danault being the better player comes down to how much you value ES scoring vs overall scoring. Plekanec was an underrated PP player, and got quite a lot of his points on the PP. Danault on the other hand doesn't seem all that good on the PP, so yeah in terms of total points Plekanec will outdo Danault simply because the PP is such a major source of scoring in the NHL.

However most teams don't lack for players that are decent PP players, so Danault not being a good PP player doesn't matter much to me. At the end of the day it's pretty easy/cheap to acquire a good PP player, it's much harder/more expensive to get a good ES player.

For reference Plekanec averaged 35 ESP (Excluding his rookie+last few years) per 82 games whereas Danault the last two season's has him at 49. Plekanec's best season was 45 ESP, followed by a couple 41 seasons.

Now I fully admit this is an evaluation that is skewed in Danault's favour to begin with as I'm comparing essentially Danault's best seasons with most of Plekanec's career. Plekanec had a fairly up/down career even ignoring his final few years, which is why in my OP I even mentioned this is somewhat based on how you view Plekanec's numbers. If the 70 point Plekanec was the true Plekanec and he was held back those others years by terrible coach/usage/linemates then yeah he's better then Danault. But I'm not prepared to put Plekanec's inconsistency solely down to that. I consider Plekanec more of a 60 point center, and in that case Danault's better even-strength scoring puts him ahead.

You can't compare the production of a player over almost his whole career to the production of a player in his prime. If you take Plekanec's two best back to back seasons (2009-2010 and 2010-2011) to Danault's last two seasons Plekanec did 2.00 points every 60 minutes at 5 on 5 and Danault 2.26. The interesting part though is Plekanaec was the most productive 5 on 5 player on his line (AK was at 1.75) while Danault is the least productive 5 on 5 player on his line since both Tatar (2.62) and Gallagher (2.44) do more point every 60 minutes at 5 on 5 than Danault.
 
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LaP

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You are welcome. Can you please name the players you don't agree with ?

You know that 60 is pretty much a third liner, right ? And that I obviously forgot some names. You are free to believe what you want.

Some guys around here have a hard time understanding that if you're the 20th best center then you might be a 1st line center but likely on a team outside the playoffs and if you're the 50th best center then you might be a 2nd line center but likely on a team outside the playoffs. If you want to win your first line center must ideally be top 10ish and your 2nd line center ideally top 40ish. This is in a ideal world of course you can cover a weakness a center with key players at other position (like Scott Stevens, Scott Niedermayer, Brian Rafalski and Martin Brodure) but it's still a weakness. There's obviously no perfect formula but if yor centers are not some of the best at their position and given TOI then you must cover with better players at other positions (which doesn't include the likes of Kulak, Folin, ...).
 

Catanddogguitarrr

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I would keep him if his cap hit remains below 5m and he slots in as a veteran 3rd line who can play up in case of injury.

As long as he is the best option for 1st line center Bergevin isn’t doing his job. They need to explore the market to no end. And that includes potentially using Danault as a part of the package
A team have to draft his centers. Rarely top end centers are involved in a trade. Except maybe NY Rangers and few big cities in usa. . This situations shows the incvompetence of our GM, loaded with free cap space and unable to spend that money. He did nice trades but the big bone he can't get. No good center signed ufa, no big defenseman except Chiarot, not even a good back up goalie, I mean, his job is to sign those free agents according to the needs of the team.
 
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Sorinth

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You are welcome. Can you please name the players you don't agree with ?

You know that 60 is pretty much a third liner, right ? And that I obviously forgot some names. You are free to believe what you want.

Like I said I don't really want to go through who is better/worse since it is irrelevant, we are going to have a difference of opinion on most players since we have a very different opinion on Danault. But if you really want a few names, Kadri, Nelson, Domi, Statsny, even guys like Hischier and Suzuki are probably not there yet though most likely will surpass him fairly soon.

You had him at 46-56 which is clearly in the 2nd liner range. Now apparently you've forgotten some names.
 

CristianoRonaldo

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In your head
Like I said I don't really want to go through who is better/worse since it is irrelevant, we are going to have a difference of opinion on most players since we have a very different opinion on Danault. But if you really want a few names, Kadri, Nelson, Domi, Statsny, even guys like Hischier and Suzuki are probably not there yet though most likely will surpass him fairly soon.

You had him at 46-56 which is clearly in the 2nd liner range. Now apparently you've forgotten some names.

It was mostly on the top of my head... I forgot some names like Cirelli, I'm sure he's not the only one, because we can put many players in that situation they will perform as good as him if not better. I don't know why you took the 46-56 mark... 56 is damn close to 60, a #3C.
 

Sorinth

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You can't compare the production of a player over almost his whole career to the production of a player in his prime. If you take Plekanec's two best back to back seasons (2009-2010 and 2010-2011) to Danault's last two seasons Plekanec did 2.00 points every 60 minutes at 5 on 5 and Danault 2.26. The interesting part though is Plekanaec was the most productive 5 on 5 player on his line (AK was at 1.75) while Danault is the least productive 5 on 5 player on his line since both Tatar (2.62) and Gallagher (2.44) do more point every 60 minutes at 5 on 5 than Danault.

In the post you quoted I even said it's unfair, however whenever we compare someone in the middle of their career to someone whose finished theirs it's going to be somewhat unfair. We know what happened with one guy and have to speculate about the other.

We know Plekanec wasn't able to maintain that level of play, so looking at his "good" years is pointless, that's not the player he was, just like the real Gionta was a 25-30 goal scorer not a 40+ goal scorer. We don't know if Danault will have that same kind of inconsistency, so far he's gotten better every single year so there's good reason to believe he'll continue at his current level of play. And yes when I said I think Danault is better then Plekanec, that is partly based on me expecting him to continue to produce like he has these past two seasons.
 

CristianoRonaldo

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In your head
Sure if they played with 100 point center they would do better. But we don't have a 100 elite #1 center, we have Domi and Suzuki. The question isn't about replacing Danault with McDavid, everybody would do that, it's about whether Suzuki or Domi would actually be better. I personally doubt Domi would, Suzuki isn't there yet because he's a rookie but hopefully in the next few years he will.
But it's ironic that you claim Danault is a 3rd liner, yet all your examples are of elite #1 centers. If Danault is a 3rd liner like you claim, then shouldn't his wingers do better when centered by 2nd liners like Henrique, an over the hill Getzlaf, or Pageau? And yet I have a hard time believe Tatar and Gallagher would be that much more productive with Pageau as their center.

I can name you Horvat, Schenn, Eric Staal and say that Gallagher and Tatar would look better with them, you will dismiss it and the conversation won't go farther, that's why I used elite centres for my example.

I've never claimed Gallagher scores 30 goals because of Danault, but that's not what you claimed.

You said that: "It's a coincidence Kovalchuk produced, it's a coincidence Tatar had back to back career years, it's a coincidence that Gallagher set a career high in goals. There seem to be quite a lot of coincidences when it comes to Danault." You clearly meant it.

Your claim is that Danault brings his linemates down, his lack of offence is supposedly bringing their goal/point totals down.

I claimed that, because Danault is a grinder and I don't want that in my top-6 as a centre. He's not a goal scorer, he can't make good passes on a regular basis, He has stone hands, he can't create space and time for his wingers with his dribbles... Many times we see him lose the puck during the PP as he forces passes while he does not have the ability to execute them. He's strong against the board, he can keep the puck in these situations, can make simple passes, he's pretty good defensively, has a good hockey sense and skate well, protect the puck tremendously.

He's on pace for 55 points, playing with the best wingers in EV and in the PP. The last 39 games he's getting 1:53 on average per/game, but he's still bad on the power play, only got 3 points during that time. His skill set is not suited for the Power play.

Domi, now that he's looking like the player we watched last year and Suzuki would do better than him with Tatar and Gally. They are already close in points. Domi is not as good defensively as Danault, but Suzuki is pretty close.

Yet they've been at their best/set career highs with him. It's illogical, if Danault was bringing them down and they still did so well it must mean their previous linemates were even bigger drags on their production. And frankly I find it hard to believe that Larkin and Zetterberg brought down his production.

Gallagher was on pace for 28 goals in his rookie year with a young Eller, many years after and during his prime, he only scored 33 goals in his best year and you are here bragging that he did it with Danault. I'm sure that with a centre who can ditch the puck, he will score more goals. He's already pretty good at scoring garbage goals by his own.

Tatar is scoring at the same rate as he used to with the wings, the thing is he's getting more assists than he used to and Danault with his 13 goals is not doing much to help him in that area.

Giveaway and takeaway stats are less then useless. But if you really believe it means something then I would point out that both Tatar and Gallagher's takeaways per 60 minutes increased significantly since being paired with Danault, quite possibly because Danault's forecheck forces opposing players into making bad decisions which lead directly to turnovers.

Not really, Gally's takeaway stats improved and Tatar takeaways were high last year, but not this year, it's back to normal, so it's probably not because of Danault. I used raw stats, takeaways per 60 minutes, I don't know where to find, if you have a link, I would like to see it.
 
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