OT: Philadelphia Eagles (NFL): When You're Up, It's Never As Good As It Seems, And When You're Down, You Never Think You'll Be Up Again

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BrindamoursNose

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Oct 14, 2008
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so a qb is only worthy in your mind if they are a top 5 qb. Of all the statistics used today, what ones do you use to determine who is and isn't top 5?

Bro, go have a Coke and a smile or something. Why are you pressing them on their own evaluations of players?

Top NFL coaches likely couldn't satisfy the questions you're pressing right now - at least in a way that will satisfy you.
 
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Beef Invictus

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Dec 21, 2009
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so a qb is only worthy in your mind if they are a top 5 qb. Of all the statistics used today, what ones do you use to determine who is and isn't top 5?
All of them. And then the added context of what they have around them and who is running the team and how.

Here's another example from your previous demand: Russell Wilson.

The Seahawks won in 2014 with Wilson on an ELC, because they had an incredibly strong team. Then his contract increased over 20-fold and they could never put together rosters as dominant; there wasn't cap space.

I don't understand why you are so offended
 

Jtown

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Oct 6, 2010
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All of them. And then the added context of what they have around them and who is running the team and how.

Here's another example from your previous demand: Russell Wilson.

The Seahawks won in 2014 with Wilson on an ELC, because they had an incredibly strong team. Then his contract increased over 20-fold and they could never put together rosters as dominant; there wasn't cap space.

I don't understand why you are so offended

i am not offended at all. I apologize for coming off that way.

Seattle should've won in 2015... wilson had a 30 million dollar cap hit. . Seattle did fall off but was it because of wilson or was it because of injuries to th legion of boom, not being able to find pass rushers , and Carroll being too far removed from college to recognize who the good college players were after having some historical draft success.

I don't think that is a great example .

On the opposite end of the spectrum, a pretty important factor in NE's annual dominance was Brady's willingness to be underpaid.

agreed, just part of the reason why he is the GOAT
 

JojoTheWhale

"You should keep it." -- Striiker
May 22, 2008
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what seperates a tier 1 qb from a tier 2 qb?

I'm going to ignore Mahomes because "Be flat out better than everybody else," isn't a meaningful answer.

At this point, I would say in order to get into my non-Mahomes T1, you've got to produce both in and out of structure and that should be graded on a scale based on the difficulty of what you're being asked to do. To pick some non-Eagles names, Burrow and Lamar would have a very high degree of difficulty schematically. Tua and Ryan Tannehill would fall into the opposite end of the spectrum.

These days, T1 QBs seem to manifest themself in two ways -- guys with multiple high-end NFL traits or guys with one who are still very good in all other major categories. The best example we have of the former would be Lamar. His creativity outside of structure and his arm talent are both high-end even when compared to other excellent QBs. There's also Tom Brady, but again, I would struggle to call him a useful comp for anyone. He's got at least two things he's only average at by now, but he's still elite in 3-4 major areas. That's absurd.

The latter brings to mind Joe Burrow. Defenses are now so good that your worst abilities are what limit your ceiling for these types. If someone is more deficient in any one major area than Burrow's arm, I don't think they can get to the top. Dak is another. He's good outside of structure, but he's not great. That will likely always be what defines his upside.

And again, I want to stress that my standard for an extension is to pay the good starter deal as defined by the cycle. If I can save enough money, the conversation changes. Murray got 5/230 with 105 fully guaranteed and another 55 guaranteed for injury. That's the current bar.
 
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Hollywood Cannon

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Bro, go have a Coke and a smile or something. Why are you pressing them on their own evaluations of players?

Top NFL coaches likely couldn't satisfy the questions you're pressing right now - at least in a way that will satisfy you.
Why? Because he believes that Jalen Hurts is the greatest QB of all time and anyone that doesn’t believe it is a hater.
Some of you never learn :popcorn:.

I’ve learned.
 

Jtown

Registered User
Oct 6, 2010
39,619
19,685
Fairfax, Virginia
I'm going to ignore Mahomes because "Be flat out better than everybody else," isn't a meaningful answer.

At this point, I would say in order to get into my non-Mahomes T1, you've got to produce both in and out of structure and that should be graded on a scale based on the difficulty of what you're being asked to do. To pick some non-Eagles names, Burrow and Lamar would have a very high degree of difficulty schematically. Tua and Ryan Tannehill would fall into the opposite end of the spectrum.

These days, T1 QBs seem to manifest themself in two ways -- guys with multiple high-end NFL traits or guys with one who are still very good in all other major categories. The best example we have of the former would be Lamar. His creativity outside of structure and his arm talent are both high-end even when compared to other excellent QBs. There's also Tom Brady, but again, I would struggle to call him a useful comp for anyone. He's got at least two things he's only average at by now, but he's still elite in 3-4 major areas. That's absurd.

The latter brings to mind Joe Burrow. Defenses are now so good that your worst abilities are what limit your ceiling for these types. If someone is more deficient in any one major area than Burrow's arm, I don't think they can get to the top. Dak is another. He's good outside of structure, but he's not great. That will likely always be what defines his upside.

And again, I want to stress that my standard for an extension is to pay the good starter deal as defined by the cycle. If I can save enough money, the conversation changes. Murray got 5/230 with 105 fully guaranteed and another 55 guaranteed for injury. That's the current bar.

I really appreciate this write up.. I think you hit the nail on the head in what big time qb's are asked to do. Produce in and out of structure. ALso haveing a few elite traits should be apart of this evaluation. A player like Tannehill who is an above avg qb does not have any elite traits imo.


One thing that I have a tough time agreeing with you on and that is also because we have a tough time evaluating this is the difficulty of what a qb is being asked to do.

If you are a follower of Steven Ruiz or some other online qb guru's you may fall into the trap that believing things like the rpo are used as training wheels for qb's that aren't good at progressions or reading the defense. That may have been true about 5 years ago but that is certainly not the case now.


This article does a great job of explaining why that is. The eagles success when we run RPO is squarely on Jalen. That structure puts so much pressure on the qb consistently making the right decision, and so far he has with great success.

If you have a hierarchy of easiest to hardest things offenses ask a qb to do I would like to see your ranking.

A guy like herbert being able to sit in the pocket all day and go through progressions while throwing strikes is a enviable skill set and offense , it's one that more and more teams are having less success with. So maybe instead of difficult offenses to run , a more simpler approach is better.

If i had to summarize the nfl right now it would be like that this, there are 2 barriers for successful offenses. Teams are basically given free reign to get into the red zone. What determines a team getting into the red zone is the least mistakes committed i.e. penalties, sacks, turnovers and drops. . That is barrier 1. Barrier 2 for success is what do teams do in the red zone? DO they score td's get fg's or do they turn it over?

Few if any qb's are able to overcome mistakes. THe josh allen, Mahomes, and herberts of the world have the talent to overcome mistakes.

WHen I look at hurts I see him as a perfect qb for this era of football , because he has 3 elite traits imo. 1. He is an elite decision maker. He does not turn the ball over, he does not take big sacks. 2. In the red zone he is elite at producing. This is the 2nd year in a row that the Eagles dominate in the red zone ( best this year) THe pressure the rpo , and hurts legs puts on defenses makes us the best running red zone team in the nfl and its not even close. How good is Hurts in the Red zone? He and Dak are the only qb to be in the top 8 in the past 2 years.

So again, I don't care how beautiful of a ball herbert throws. I care about a red zone percentage in the 70's instead of the low 50's like herbert has had the2 of the past 3 years.


If we place an emphasis on results rather than style , it's easy to see why there is so much enthusiasm behind Hurts. Elite REd zone production. Does not f*** up. that seems to be the recipe for success in todays nfl.
 
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JojoTheWhale

"You should keep it." -- Striiker
May 22, 2008
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I really appreciate this write up.. I think you hit the nail on the head in what big time qb's are asked to do. Produce in and out of structure. ALso haveing a few elite traits should be apart of this evaluation. A player like Tannehill who is an above avg qb does not have any elite traits imo.


One thing that I have a tough time agreeing with you on and that is also because we have a tough time evaluating this is the difficulty of what a qb is being asked to do.

If you are a follower of Steven Ruiz or some other online qb guru's you may fall into the trap that believing things like the rpo are used as training wheels for qb's that aren't good at progressions or reading the defense. That may have been true about 5 years ago but that is certainly not the case now.


This article does a great job of explaining why that is. The eagles success when we run RPO is squarely on Jalen. That structure puts so much pressure on the qb consistently making the right decision, and so far he has with great success.

If you have a hierarchy of easiest to hardest things offenses ask a qb to do I would like to see your ranking.

A guy like herbert being able to sit in the pocket all day and go through progressions while throwing strikes is a enviable skill set and offense , it's one that more and more teams are having less success with. So maybe instead of difficult offenses to run , a more simpler approach is better.

If i had to summarize the nfl right now it would be like that this, there are 2 barriers for successful offenses. Teams are basically given free reign to get into the red zone. What determines a team getting into the red zone is the least mistakes committed i.e. penalties, sacks, turnovers and drops. . That is barrier 1. Barrier 2 for success is what do teams do in the red zone? DO they score td's get fg's or do they turn it over?

Few if any qb's are able to overcome mistakes. THe josh allen, Mahomes, and herberts of the world have the talent to overcome mistakes.

WHen I look at hurts I see him as a perfect qb for this era of football , because he has 3 elite traits imo. 1. He is an elite decision maker. He does not turn the ball over, he does not take big sacks. 2. In the red zone he is elite at producing. This is the 2nd year in a row that the Eagles dominate in the red zone ( best this year) THe pressure the rpo , and hurts legs puts on defenses makes us the best running red zone team in the nfl and its not even close. How good is Hurts in the Red zone? He and Dak are the only qb to be in the top 8 in the past 2 years.

So again, I don't care how beautiful of a ball herbert throws. I care about a red zone percentage in the 70's instead of the low 50's like herbert has had the2 of the past 3 years.


If we place an emphasis on results rather than style , it's easy to see why there is so much enthusiasm behind Hurts. Elite REd zone production. Does not f*** up. that seems to be the recipe for success in todays nfl.

We have company for the weekend, so I will get back to this when I have time. But I wanted to say that I completely agree that RPOs are just part of a normal offense now. Yes, they have simplified reads. But they're not gimmicks like putting a trick play on film and allowing a team to prep for it. You can run a shitton of them and expect them to keep working.
 
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Chinatown88

1 year 1 month 1 day and counting
Jan 17, 2012
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The Universe


I always forget The Athletic has a podcast. I guess it's because I always listen to them on YouTube and I kinda want to punch Andy Staples in the face because he looks really punchable to me.
 

bennysflyers16

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Jan 26, 2004
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It was a stealth bomber or something. Murica
In KC few years ago, it was pretty cool

1670178090093.png
 
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