OT: Philadelphia Eagles (NFL): When You're Up, It's Never As Good As It Seems, And When You're Down, You Never Think You'll Be Up Again

[Jtown]

For all my specific concerns about projecting Hurts to a 2nd contract, I really don’t think he gets enough credit for how much of the Eagles’ run game effectiveness is a direct result of him. Coaches leverage it well, but he’s still got to be a meaningful threat or none of it works.

*Edit* Stoutland too. Some of these Pin/Pulls are his across multiple regimes.

what are your specific concerns?

 

[FLYguy3911]

 

[Beef Invictus]

Collinsworthless ready to put Love in the HOF.

Right? That was ridiculous

 

[JojoTheWhale]

what are your specific concerns?

I still see a guy who you can win with rather than one you win because of, which matters exponentially more when you have to give him 45+ AAV with high guarantees. My bar for that is admittedly very high. I didn't want to extend Wentz for example.

I don't like his pocket awareness at all and I don't think it's gotten better. That manifests both by in-pocket movement and when he decides to leave it. I was going to say I don't like many of his decisions on some of these optioned plays, but that's not actually saying anything. Everyone makes mistakes. Instead I'll say anecdotally it feels like too often I'm sitting here wondering if he's making the right reads on them. Please consider "wondering" to be a clear statement that I'm not in the room and I have no way of knowing for sure. But I'm skeptical based on how such things are usually read out.

I still don't think his arm is special enough to potentially carry his play to the level required to be a Tier 1 QB like an Allen or Stafford. I also don't think his accuracy/ball placement is any better than fine on the NFL starter scale. Other than his legs and out of structure plays, he's basically a collection of these good but not great assets. That's not something I'm comfortable committing huge money to basing my offense around.

He's also been really good this year! There are some strong Tua similarities in this vein.

One thing I'd like to point out on the positive side is how much better his Go balls look this year. You may or may not remember, but I defended his arm when people said he didn't have the strength to hit deep throws. He's getting to them earlier and most people have given that narrative up.

 

[FatTugboatFlahr]

God. The deep ball nonsense was the worst.

 

[Jack Straw]

This shit is so terrifying when you see it. Oh shit is that so and so? Wait no it's someone that looks eerily like them.

 

[DancingPanther]

I still see a guy who you can win with rather than one you win because of, which matters exponentially more when you have to give him 45+ AAV with high guarantees. My bar for that is admittedly very high. I didn't want to extend Wentz for example.

I don't like his pocket awareness at all and I don't think it's gotten better. That manifests both by in-pocket movement and when he decides to leave it. I was going to say I don't like many of his decisions on some of these optioned plays, but that's not actually saying anything. Everyone makes mistakes. Instead I'll say anecdotally it feels like too often I'm sitting here wondering if he's making the right reads on them. Please consider "wondering" to be a clear statement that I'm not in the room and I have no way of knowing for sure. But I'm skeptical based on how such things are usually read out.

I still don't think his arm is special enough to potentially carry his play to the level required to be a Tier 1 QB like an Allen or Stafford. I also don't think his accuracy/ball placement is any better than fine on the NFL starter scale. Other than his legs and out of structure plays, he's basically a collection of these good but not great assets. That's not something I'm comfortable committing huge money to basing my offense around.

He's also been really good this year! There are some strong Tua similarities in this vein.

One thing I'd like to point out on the positive side is how much better his Go balls look this year. You may or may not remember, but I defended his arm when people said he didn't have the strength to hit deep throws. He's getting to them earlier and most people have given that narrative up.

My untrained eye sees him improving on the timing of his throws and seizing the opportunity to hit windows.

I have no way to quantify this. I have no data. I don't even know if it exists.

If it exists and he actually is improving, that is exciting. Having him not at his ceiling right now, implying a better thrower in the future, is something to be excited about.

This is not me disagreeing with you btw

 

[Jtown]

I still see a guy who you can win with rather than one you win because of, which matters exponentially more when you have to give him 45+ AAV with high guarantees. My bar for that is admittedly very high. I didn't want to extend Wentz for example.

I don't like his pocket awareness at all and I don't think it's gotten better. That manifests both by in-pocket movement and when he decides to leave it. I was going to say I don't like many of his decisions on some of these optioned plays, but that's not actually saying anything. Everyone makes mistakes. Instead I'll say anecdotally it feels like too often I'm sitting here wondering if he's making the right reads on them. Please consider "wondering" to be a clear statement that I'm not in the room and I have no way of knowing for sure. But I'm skeptical based on how such things are usually read out.

I still don't think his arm is special enough to potentially carry his play to the level required to be a Tier 1 QB like an Allen or Stafford. I also don't think his accuracy/ball placement is any better than fine on the NFL starter scale. Other than his legs and out of structure plays, he's basically a collection of these good but not great assets. That's not something I'm comfortable committing huge money to basing my offense around.

He's also been really good this year! There are some strong Tua similarities in this vein.

One thing I'd like to point out on the positive side is how much better his Go balls look this year. You may or may not remember, but I defended his arm when people said he didn't have the strength to hit deep throws. He's getting to them earlier and most people have given that narrative up.

you and Hollywood have hated this pick from day 1. its been well documented. So You're coming in with some bias already so pardon if I look at your critiques with rose colored glasses.

You're worried about 40 million? Subtract fletcher, graham, barnett, and our dead cap space and voila.... there is our 40 mill. Guess what its still the same team.

I would argue , Hurts is the only reason we are winning games. He puts so much pressure on defenses that he opens up the running game by himself. Last year no one gave him credit for the reason why we were so good at running . THe fact that he is a threat with his legs make miles, and scott, and gainwell that much better.

His arm is not tier 1 like stafford, but has stafford ever had success like this? Stafford is a career bust if Jasqui Tartt could catch a pop up. The flukiest super bowl win since i have been alive sugar coats what has been a mediocre career. We should all thank our lucky stars that Hurts is no Matt Stafford. His arm is no kenny pickett either i would say he has the same arm talent as Joe burrow and may have a stronger arm.


So I apologize if i Can't take your criticisms with seriousness. I laughed at people on this board who said he was inaccurate after his rookie year, without realizing that he had the largest depth of target of any qb by a great margin. I laughed at those who said he couldn't throw across the middle , when we didn't have a single WR who was built to handle hits in the middle of the field. And I laughed at people who said Hurts couldn't throw to his left. I laughed at critics saying he is a 1 read qb and that he is incapable of beating anyone pre snap.

Is Hurts Perfect? no, but here is what everyone has failed to understand for his success. Jalen Hurts is capable of getting better. ANd there is no one i would bet on more than him at getting better. Everything about him oozes maturity, seriousness, work ethic, and coaches son. I would only put 2 other qb's in his class when it comes to those traits and that is brady and Payton. He will never have the physical gifts of Lamar and Josh Allen, but those two will never out work him , and he will never stop working.

If you're talking about work ethic we are seeing a guy with Michael Jordan like sense of focus and commitment.


So let's focus on the positives. Jalen Hurts, elite decision maker, elite ball placement , elite running ability, elite ability to read defenses, Elite strength at the position, elite work ethic, , elite leader.

He is the anti Zach WIlson.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

you and Hollywood have hated this pick from day 1. its been well documented. So You're coming in with some bias already so pardon if I look at your critiques with rose colored glasses.

You're worried about 40 million? Subtract fletcher, graham, barnett, and our dead cap space and voila.... there is our 40 mill. Guess what its still the same team.

I would argue , Hurts is the only reason we are winning games. He puts so much pressure on defenses that he opens up the running game by himself. Last year no one gave him credit for the reason why we were so good at running . THe fact that he is a threat with his legs make miles, and scott, and gainwell that much better.

His arm is not tier 1 like stafford, but has stafford ever had success like this? Stafford is a career bust if Jasqui Tartt could catch a pop up. The flukiest super bowl win since i have been alive sugar coats what has been a mediocre career. We should all thank our lucky stars that Hurts is no Matt Stafford. His arm is no kenny pickett either i would say he has the same arm talent as Joe burrow and may have a stronger arm.


So I apologize if i Can't take your criticisms with seriousness. I laughed at people on this board who said he was inaccurate after his rookie year, without realizing that he had the largest depth of target of any qb by a great margin. I laughed at those who said he couldn't throw across the middle , when we didn't have a single WR who was built to handle hits in the middle of the field. And I laughed at people who said Hurts couldn't throw to his left. I laughed at critics saying he is a 1 read qb and that he is incapable of beating anyone pre snap.

Is Hurts Perfect? no, but here is what everyone has failed to understand for his success. Jalen Hurts is capable of getting better. ANd there is no one i would bet on more than him at getting better. Everything about him oozes maturity, seriousness, work ethic, and coaches son. I would only put 2 other qb's in his class when it comes to those traits and that is brady and Payton. He will never have the physical gifts of Lamar and Josh Allen, but those two will never out work him , and he will never stop working.

If you're talking about work ethic we are seeing a guy with Michael Jordan like sense of focus and commitment.


So let's focus on the positives. Jalen Hurts, elite decision maker, elite ball placement , elite running ability, elite ability to read defenses, Elite strength at the position, elite work ethic, , elite leader.

He is the anti Zach WIlson.

Most importantly, what someone else says isn't on me. HC can speak for himself and he shouldn't have to answer for anything I've said either.

Let me tell you how you're biased and I'm not, while evoking Michael Jordan comps is probably a sign something is wrong somewhere.

That is decidedly not how it works with regard to cap space and you know it. It's all tied together. Player salaries scale with the cap. Some players are due raises. Howie's fantastic at it and if you just leave it at trusting him to navigate it, I can at least respect that. But not writing it off as that simple.

I really don't know how to help you anymore. I didn't get into the specifics because I don't want to be negative. I was trying to praise him. You asked me why and now you're bothered that I'm ripping him. Even in the post where I explained, I tried to close on a positive AND made sure to note how well I think he's playing. There is no satisfying you on this subject. If I had half a brain cell in my dopey head, I would learn that lesson.

And for the millionth time, I hated the pick. I still do because the team was in win-now mode with win-now players on the board that filled key positions. I did not hate the player. Different issues. One way to tell I'm probably telling the truth is that I had the exact same criticisms about taking Davion Taylor at 103. Except he had no idea how to play football, which made it that much worse. Whether you choose to believe me or not is quite frankly not my problem.

Stafford's play is irrelevant to my personal point. The Tier 1 QBs usually have something otherworldly that get them there and I don't like projecting someone who doesn't have one of those abilities. He was just an example of a guy with an arm with the physical talent I consider at that level.

You're insistent upon having this discussion to quite frankly a weird degree and I'm done with it after today.

My untrained eye sees him improving on the timing of his throws and seizing the opportunity to hit windows.

I have no way to quantify this. I have no data. I don't even know if it exists.

If it exists and he actually is improving, that is exciting. Having him not at his ceiling right now, implying a better thrower in the future, is something to be excited about.

This is not me disagreeing with you btw

Hurts has gotten better for ~4 consecutive years. That's uncommon. As we all know, development isn't usually linear.

This is another compliment in case anyone is unclear for some strange reason.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Holy shit that says elite ball placement. I need a drink.

Please, please stop saying crazy shit. I want to be positive. Patrick Mahomes isn't elite at everything.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Holy shit that says elite ball placement. I need a drink.

Please, please stop saying crazy shit. I want to be positive. Patrick Mahomes isn't elite at everything.

Have seven for me.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Have seven for me.

No actual drinks, but I'm face deep in a homemade apple crumble with a scoop of greek yogurt on top right now. Life is good again.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

No actual drinks, but I'm face deep in a homemade apple crumble with a scoop of greek yogurt on top right now. Life is good again.

That’s a quality pallet cleanser right there.

You see Bowles’ reasoning for not using a timeout yesterday? Wooooof.

 

[Beef Invictus]

It's worth asking if Hurts is really worth the contract he may command. It's a question Baltimore is asking with Lamar, and Baltimore generally knows what they're doing which is how they've managed to stay decent-to-good for so long without good draft spots.

Look at the Vikings; they handed a QB who can't elevate a team on his own (but who relies on distributing to other talent) the kind of contract that should be reserved for a high level QB, and it hamstrung them for years. Paying a distributor so much you can't afford anyone for them to distribute to is a big problem.

Hurts right now sure looks like a QB who isn't gonna do it alone. He needs help. Paying him enough that help can't be afforded doesn't get the team anywhere. It's a challenge facing most teams with "merely" good QBs and I'm glad it's not my job to decide on it.

 

[Chinatown88]

Must resist temptation to shit stir.

 

[Svechhammer]

I think Hurts is a perfect fit for the system the Eagles want to run. Is he the absolute perfect QB? No, but he's probably not as far away from it as you'd originally think. The guy is built like a tank, but also has the ability to put the ball on the numbers 20 yards downfield while scrambling. He rarely misses in dangerous ways (that is, if he's missing, he's not giving the defense much of a chance to pick it off) and he's able to spread the ball around to find the open guys a lot rather than keying in on one receiver.

Being a VT alum and watching all the Hokie games on Saturday as well as living in NC and forced to watch the Panthers on Sunday, I've seen a lot of dogshit QB play the last few years, and Hurts really doesn't show any of the bad traits that I see so often. He reminds me a bit of a short Cam Newton, but with a bit more accuracy on his throws, and a little less of a bulldozer cause of his size, and I'm excited to see what he can do with a OL that keeps him off his ass and a receiving corps that isn't dogshit.

He's worth the contract he's going to get because. Well, quite frankly, he's legitimately a good QB and that's just the going rate for them nowadays. And the last thing you want to do is to be stuck going through journeymen QBs til the end of time because you cut bait on one of the few times you had actual playmaking talent and balked at the market price.

 

[Jtown]

Holy shit that says elite ball placement. I need a drink.

Please, please stop saying crazy shit. I want to be positive. Patrick Mahomes isn't elite at everything.

IF you have stats to back up that he does not have elite ball placement I would be happy to take a look at them. But if you are paying any attention to what he has done over the past two years every advanced throwing metric would suggest he has elite ball placement.

It's worth asking if Hurts is really worth the contract he may command. It's a question Baltimore is asking with Lamar, and Baltimore generally knows what they're doing which is how they've managed to stay decent-to-good for so long without good draft spots.

Look at the Vikings; they handed a QB who can't elevate a team on his own (but who relies on distributing to other talent) the kind of contract that should be reserved for a high level QB, and it hamstrung them for years. Paying a distributor so much you can't afford anyone for them to distribute to is a big problem.

Hurts right now sure looks like a QB who isn't gonna do it alone. He needs help. Paying him enough that help can't be afforded doesn't get the team anywhere. It's a challenge facing most teams with "merely" good QBs and I'm glad it's not my job to decide on it.

Baltimore has legitimate reasons to be skeptical. The eagles don't.

Beef every qb needs help , we need to stop moving the goalposts for Jalen its crazy how dumb people get when talking about this kid.

 

[Jtown]

i would love your take.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

i would love your take.

You’re not going to get it.

Trying to talk to someone that compares Jalen Hurts to Michael Jordan and believes that he is elite in all ways isn’t worth my time.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Oh and again:

 

[Beef Invictus]

IF you have stats to back up that he does not have elite ball placement I would be happy to take a look at them. But if you are paying any attention to what he has done over the past two years every advanced throwing metric would suggest he has elite ball placement.



Baltimore has legitimate reasons to be skeptical. The eagles don't.

Beef every qb needs help , we need to stop moving the goalposts for Jalen its crazy how dumb people get when talking about this kid.

To say the Eagles have no legitimate reason to be skeptical is pretty insane.

This isn't moving the goalposts. I've been on board with the idea that very few QBs are worth their contract for a long time.

Do you think he'd be worth 46+ million? Do you think he can provide that level of value?

 

[Taijuan Fedotov]

LOL

 

[sabremike]

 

[Striiker]

what are your specific concerns?

Wentz 2.0