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Other Sports: Philadelphia Eagles (NFL): Vegas, Baby! (2023 Regular Season)

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JojoTheWhale said:


I realize he gave the PR answer, so I will draw no conclusions at all from this. I do want to say that I urgently hope he doesn’t believe this.

Again, saying is good. I’m not ripping him. Believing would be very, very bad. I have no way of knowing which this is.
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It's a mix. I mean they are making changes, they can't expose him to hits on the ROs anymore (I've seen opposing teams target him and ignore the option), but that means shifting to a more conventional offense, and that's a big adjustment. And they've played two extreme defenses - one reason the first 4 weeks are a "shakeout cruise" is teams have all summer to prepare for you, not one week, and Eagles obviously have a target on their back. Still scoring 26 ppg on offense.

My suspicion is they'll be up and down until the bye week, then two weeks to absorb what other teams are doing and what they're doing wrong.

A bigger issue is getting the back seven stabilized with all the injuries, do that, and few teams are scoring 20 points against them. That DL is outright scary. Might be the best since 1990.
 
deadhead said:
It's a mix. I mean they are making changes, they can't expose him to hits on the ROs anymore (I've seen opposing teams target him and ignore the option), but that means shifting to a more conventional offense, and that's a big adjustment. And they've played two extreme defenses - one reason the first 4 weeks are a "shakeout cruise" is teams have all summer to prepare for you, not one week, and Eagles obviously have a target on their back. Still scoring 26 ppg on offense.

My suspicion is they'll be up and down until the bye week, then two weeks to absorb what other teams are doing and what they're doing wrong.

A bigger issue is getting the back seven stabilized with all the injuries, do that, and few teams are scoring 20 points against them. That DL is outright scary. Might be the best since 1990.
Click to expand...

If they’re not going to use his best abilities, they made a catastrophic error in signing him. There’s no room for interpretation here. You can’t just decide not to use a player’s biggest strength and also give him a top of market deal.

I’m very much open to the idea that Belichick and Flores is a gauntlet that counters Hurts’ weaknesses extremely well. I still think the offense eventually figures it out. But it is worrying for the playoffs when these better coaches have to be beaten every week. Bowles is another bad matchup for him, but he doesn’t have the same proclivity as the first two for doing something super weird. Bowles is more of a conventional problem.

I’d much, much rather play a Buffalo in the playoffs than a Miami for example. Buffalo’s defense just does what they do and dares you to beat them. Fangio makes a QB’s life hell. Hurts kills the former and struggles with the latter.
 
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JojoTheWhale said:
If they’re not going to use his best abilities, they made a catastrophic error in signing him. There’s no room for interpretation here. You can’t just decide not to use a player’s biggest strength and also give him a top of market deal.

I’m very much open to the idea that Belichick and Flores is a gauntlet that counters Hurts’ weaknesses extremely well. I still think the offense eventually figures it out. But it is worrying for the playoffs when these better coaches have to be beaten every week. Bowles is another bad matchup for him, but he doesn’t have the same proclivity as the first two for doing something super weird. Bowles is more of a conventional problem.

I’d much, much rather play a Buffalo in the playoffs than a Miami for example. Buffalo’s defense just does what they do and dares you to beat them. Fangio makes a QB’s life hell. Hurts kills the former and struggles with the latter.
Click to expand...

And to think, Fangio would be our DC if it wasn't for f***ing Jonathon Gannon
 
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JojoTheWhale said:
If they’re not going to use his best abilities, they made a catastrophic error in signing him. There’s no room for interpretation here. You can’t just decide not to use a player’s biggest strength and also give him a top of market deal.

I’m very much open to the idea that Belichick and Flores is a gauntlet that counters Hurts’ weaknesses extremely well. I still think the offense eventually figures it out. But it is worrying for the playoffs when these better coaches have to be beaten every week. Bowles is another bad matchup for him, but he doesn’t have the same proclivity as the first two for doing something super weird. Bowles is more of a conventional problem.

I’d much, much rather play a Buffalo in the playoffs than a Miami for example. Buffalo’s defense just does what they do and dares you to beat them. Fangio makes a QB’s life hell. Hurts kills the former and struggles with the latter.
Click to expand...
wow you have more faith in my coach than I do lol
 
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JojoTheWhale said:
If they’re not going to use his best abilities, they made a catastrophic error in signing him. There’s no room for interpretation here. You can’t just decide not to use a player’s biggest strength and also give him a top of market deal.

I’m very much open to the idea that Belichick and Flores is a gauntlet that counters Hurts’ weaknesses extremely well. I still think the offense eventually figures it out. But it is worrying for the playoffs when these better coaches have to be beaten every week. Bowles is another bad matchup for him, but he doesn’t have the same proclivity as the first two for doing something super weird. Bowles is more of a conventional problem.

I’d much, much rather play a Buffalo in the playoffs than a Miami for example. Buffalo’s defense just does what they do and dares you to beat them. Fangio makes a QB’s life hell. Hurts kills the former and struggles with the latter.
Click to expand...
Hurts can still use his running ability out of the pocket, either teams zone and mush rush, making passing easier, or they risk big runs off man coverage.

An offense build off the RO is basically a "trick" scheme that depends on a highly athletic QB who can also pass effectively - which makes it difficult to sustain. One thing as a change of pace, quite another as your base offense over a period of years.
 
JojoTheWhale said:


I realize he gave the PR answer, so I will draw no conclusions at all from this. I do want to say that I urgently hope he doesn’t believe this.

Again, saying is good. I’m not ripping him. Believing would be very, very bad. I have no way of knowing which this is.
Click to expand...

Without reading the full transcript or listening I don’t think it means he ignores the process, just that he cares less about his individual stats if if they get the win. He will throw 50 times if needed but if they have to run he’s okay with that too. Obviously it’s an issue if he’s part of the reason they can’t pass anywhere, but it didn’t sound like as much of a results over process argument as I thought initially.
 
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deadhead said:
Hurts can still use his running ability out of the pocket, either teams zone and mush rush, making passing easier, or they risk big runs off man coverage.

An offense build off the RO is basically a "trick" scheme that depends on a highly athletic QB who can also pass effectively - which makes it difficult to sustain. One thing as a change of pace, quite another as your base offense over a period of years.
Click to expand...

The current Eagles' problems have nothing to do with Zone vs Man.

The NFL disagrees with your 2nd paragraph more and more every year. We already had this argument in college. In football, schemes trickle up. Not every scheme is as simple as RPO or RO or "normal play."

Jalen Hurts is one of the very worst QBs in the NFL at throwing outside of structure from outside of the pocket. He's also one of the very best at gaining yards on the ground in those situations. He has a tendency to bail early, which puts a heavier than usual emphasis on what he does outside of structure. That's fine if he's going to be a premier power runner. Without the running ability, you do not have a good quarterback. Period. That doesn't mean he's not good when he stays in the pocket. The bar is just so damn high for the necessary level of QB play that good isn't enough.

If this is what Hurts is going to give you on the ground, he's clearly and inarguably worse than Cousins. I don't believe the org is incompetent enough to let that happen.

landsbergfan said:
Without reading the full transcript or listening I don’t think it means he ignores the process, just that he cares less about his individual stats if if they get the win. He will throw 50 times if needed but if they have to run he’s okay with that too. Obviously it’s an issue if he’s part of the reason they can’t pass anywhere, but it didn’t sound like as much of a results over process argument as I thought initially.
Click to expand...

What I'm specifically worried about is that taking what the defense gives you isn't good enough to run the playoff gauntlet. You have to be good enough offensively to dictate to defenses what you're going to do.

In short bursts of a drive or two or even game, yes. That can't be your whole plan.

And again, I think they eventually get it figured out. I'm not trying to be negative.
 
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JojoTheWhale said:
The current Eagles' problems have nothing to do with Zone vs Man.

The NFL disagrees with your 2nd paragraph more and more every year. We already had this argument in college. In football, schemes trickle up. Not every scheme is as simple as RPO or RO or "normal play."

Jalen Hurts is one of the very worst QBs in the NFL at throwing outside of structure from outside of the pocket. He's also one of the very best at gaining yards on the ground in those situations. He has a tendency to bail early, which puts a heavier than usual emphasis on what he does outside of structure. That's fine if he's going to be a premier power runner. Without the running ability, you do not have a good quarterback. Period. That doesn't mean he's not good when he stays in the pocket. The bar is just so damn high for the necessary level of QB play that good isn't enough.

If this is what Hurts is going to give you on the ground, he's clearly and inarguably worse than Cousins. I don't believe the org is incompetent enough to let that happen.



What I'm specifically worried about is that taking what the defense gives you isn't good enough to run the playoff gauntlet. You have to be good enough offensively to dictate to defenses what you're going to do.

In short bursts of a drive or two or even game, yes. That can't be your whole plan.

And again, I think they eventually get it figured out. I'm not trying to be negative.
Click to expand...
I respectfully disagree. Hurts won't last 17 games running the RO on a regular basis, just watch defenses, they're targeting him. He has to learn to be an effective pocket QB (which he's done at times) and use the running as a threat to keep defenses honest, not as the "main course." The better he passes out of the pocket, and the better they run the ball, the less teams can target him, both limiting his punishment and opening up the field for big running plays.

A QB scrambling in the open field is much harder to pound than on the RO, where a defender can just ignore the option and target the QB - and you don't think DCs would rather give up a few big plays if it means knocking Hurts out of the game?
 
deadhead said:
I respectfully disagree. Hurts won't last 17 games running the RO on a regular basis, just watch defenses, they're targeting him. He has to learn to be an effective pocket QB (which he's done at times) and use the running as a threat to keep defenses honest, not as the "main course." The better he passes out of the pocket, and the better they run the ball, the less teams can target him, both limiting his punishment and opening up the field for big running plays.

A QB scrambling in the open field is much harder to pound than on the RO, where a defender can just ignore the option and target the QB - and you don't think DCs would rather give up a few big plays if it means knocking Hurts out of the game?
Click to expand...

It’s not that QBs can’t exist doing what you want him to do. It’s that these are Hurts’ worst attributes. You can’t just turn your weaknesses into the entire basis of your game plan as a 25yo NFL QB. You don’t try to turn Josh Allen into Joe Burrow or vice versa.

Since it’s relevant to the topic yet again, most major QB injuries happen in the pocket. PFF has delved deeply into this exact topic for years. The highest injury rates are even on pure pocket passers
 
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Incoming hot take:

I really don't think Lynch or Shanahan's jobs should be this secure.

Shanahan in particular. Shanahan really doesn't blow me away as a coach for the recognition he gets.

 
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JojoTheWhale said:
The current Eagles' problems have nothing to do with Zone vs Man.

The NFL disagrees with your 2nd paragraph more and more every year. We already had this argument in college. In football, schemes trickle up. Not every scheme is as simple as RPO or RO or "normal play."

Jalen Hurts is one of the very worst QBs in the NFL at throwing outside of structure from outside of the pocket. He's also one of the very best at gaining yards on the ground in those situations. He has a tendency to bail early, which puts a heavier than usual emphasis on what he does outside of structure. That's fine if he's going to be a premier power runner. Without the running ability, you do not have a good quarterback. Period. That doesn't mean he's not good when he stays in the pocket. The bar is just so damn high for the necessary level of QB play that good isn't enough.

If this is what Hurts is going to give you on the ground, he's clearly and inarguably worse than Cousins. I don't believe the org is incompetent enough to let that happen.



What I'm specifically worried about is that taking what the defense gives you isn't good enough to run the playoff gauntlet. You have to be good enough offensively to dictate to defenses what you're going to do.

In short bursts of a drive or two or even game, yes. That can't be your whole plan.

And again, I think they eventually get it figured out. I'm not trying to be negative.
Click to expand...
I see what you’re saying and I would agree that is a better approach to it. In my mind I’m not as concerned cause I feel like if they can run the ball they’ll be okay, but totally agree on the preference to dictate the game on their terms
 
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JojoTheWhale said:
It’s not that QBs can’t exist doing what you want him to do. It’s that these are Hurts’ worst attributes. You can’t just turn your weaknesses into the entire basis of your game plan as a 25yo NFL QB. You don’t try to turn Josh Allen into Joe Burrow or vice versa.

Since it’s relevant to the topic yet again, most major QB injuries happen in the pocket. PFF has delved deeply into this exact topic for years. The highest injury rates are even on pure pocket passers
Click to expand...
Yes, which is why I'm for Hurts scrambling, though only after he's been patient in the pocket and there's nothing there.

There is very little data on the injury rate on RO QBs, but I suspect successful RO QBs will take a beating as DCs focus on not letting them beat them - they can live with a handoff for 10 yards if they consistently hit the QB.

This reminds me of the "run and shoot" which Buddy Ryan called the "chuck and duck." Send 5 WRs and I'm coming after your QB - you may complete a bunch of passes in the first half but he'll be on the bench by the second half.
 
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BrindamoursNose said:
That Trey Lance trade-up and then MISS feels unforgivable.
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I watched most of the game last night, Trey must be terrible cause Brock is running on smoke and mirrors. The opening drive he threw two passes that should have been picked off, he probably had 3 or 4 other passes that should have too. They werent. He also does not step into throws. When he has pressure he backpedals and chucks. I think i saw him step into 1 throw last night. The niners arent winning with him at quarterback the way he is playing.
 
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