Prospect Info: Peter Holland

[TheJoeMan]

The picks weren't busts. The trades that were made afterward were busts. That doesn't mean the team hasn't had good success with their drafting.

Yes they were. If you get no value from that pick, it's a bust. That isn't a successful pick, it's clearly a failure. It happens. The future is looking good and this trend should end but prior to Martin Madden taking over we had very few successes from the second round and beyond.

 

[TheJoeMan]

I'm a little back and forth on that topic.

On one hand, the drafting focus is generally BPA and not team utility. So in that case it doesn't matter if the player took too long or demanded a trade or whatever because the drafters don't take that into account. And like DVM said, in some cases the blame would seem to be on the GM or director of player personnel.

OTH scouting also sometimes takes into account NHL-readiness. And they do try to vet a prospect's personality. So maybe the draft team does take some responsibility for Schultz dicking out, or Ryan not being able to spell intense.


I think in terms of "what a pick is worth to use vs to trade away," it might make sense to look more holistically as to whether the player actually contributed to the original team. However in terms of "do we have a good scouting staff" or "how good is our drafting," I would tend to include guys who blossomed elsewhere.

But that only matters if we moved that player for something useful. That's my whole point. Who cares if they went on to a good career if they didn't produce squat for us? Our staff did a bad job picking that player because we was worthless to us.

 

[The Midnight Burrito]

But that only matters if we moved that player for something useful. That's my whole point. Who cares if they went on to a good career if they didn't produce squat for us? Our staff did a bad job picking that player because we was worthless to us.

Drafting players and managing assets are different things handled by different parts of the staff. The staff is not some monolithic entity.

 

[Duck Off]

Yes they were. If you get no value from that pick, it's a bust. That isn't a successful pick, it's clearly a failure. It happens. The future is looking good and this trend should end but prior to Martin Madden taking over we had very few successes from the second round and beyond.

That really depends how you look at it.

Let's say Schultz becomes a solid top 4 defenseman: You say that it doesn't matter because we did not get anything for him. That's true to an extent, but also wrong at the same time.

I personally think it means we have a good scouting department. Him leaving the way he did isn't on them. How do you know predict a kid's character being poor when he's saying all the right things? If he develops, I think it's damn impressive on our scouting department. The fact that we got nothing for him/outta him doesn't matter IMO. Not when evaluating how we draft in the 2nd round anyway.

All our drafting team can do is try and pick the players, it's up to Murray and the coaches to get "value" out of them. I personally think we should value picks more than others, because frankly, I think Murray has been pretty good with these picks. Even if the prospects are traded, their is still plenty of value in them.

I don't know, there's really no clear cut right or wrong answer.

 

[Ducks Nation*]

Yes they were. If you get no value from that pick, it's a bust. That isn't a successful pick, it's clearly a failure. It happens. The future is looking good and this trend should end but prior to Martin Madden taking over we had very few successes from the second round and beyond.

Just no.

 

[TheJoeMan]

That really depends how you look at it.

Let's say Schultz becomes a solid top 4 defenseman: You say that it doesn't matter because we did not get anything for him. That's true to an extent, but also wrong at the same time.

I personally think it means we have a good scouting department. Him leaving the way he did isn't on them. How do you know predict a kid's character being poor when he's saying all the right things? If he develops, I think it's damn impressive on our scouting department. The fact that we got nothing for him/outta him doesn't matter IMO. Not when evaluating how we draft in the 2nd round anyway.

All our drafting team can do is try and pick the players, it's up to Murray and the coaches to get "value" out of them. I personally think we should value picks more than others, because frankly, I think Murray has been pretty good with these picks. Even if the prospects are traded, their is still plenty of value in them.

I don't know, there's really no clear cut right or wrong answer.

Absolutely. And you're absolutely right about the blame of getting no value for a pick is more on the GM and coaches than the scouts. Schultz is probably an example we can throw away because if anyone had any kind of a hint he was going to what he did they would never have taken him.

 

[The Mighty Duck Man]

But that only matters if we moved that player for something useful. That's my whole point. Who cares if they went on to a good career if they didn't produce squat for us? Our staff did a bad job picking that player because we was worthless to us.

This is a ridiculous argument to make. Scouting staff did a bad job because the good player they found refused to sign or was traded? Jesus Christ.

If you're evaluating a scouting staff, why the hell should they be judged by something they had no control over? Very stupid logic.

 

[bumperkisser]

This is a ridiculous argument to make. Scouting staff did a bad job because the good player they found refused to sign or was traded? Jesus Christ.

If you're evaluating a scouting staff, why the hell should they be judged by something they had no control over? Very stupid logic.

agreed. if its on anyone its on management. not scouting staff. its managements job to have good asset management, the scouts job is to get the management good players that they can work with whether it be for trading chips or just for play

 

[TheJoeMan]

This is a ridiculous argument to make. Scouting staff did a bad job because the good player they found refused to sign or was traded? Jesus Christ.

If you're evaluating a scouting staff, why the hell should they be judged by something they had no control over? Very stupid logic.

Please read my last post.

 

[Ducks DVM]

Yes they were. If you get no value from that pick, it's a bust. That isn't a successful pick, it's clearly a failure. It happens. The future is looking good and this trend should end but prior to Martin Madden taking over we had very few successes from the second round and beyond.

No. The pick wasn't a bust at all. The GM that traded the player chosen with that pick was the bust. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the pick itself. The team DID get something out of that pick, they just blew it. There's a bright line here, and it ends with the player who was chosen. Otherwise you could make an entire string of connections that all lead to the ultimate failure of not winning the cup and say every single pick ever made was a blown pick at some level along the chain because a better player wasn't chosen or traded for or appropriately coached. And there would be no actual difference in doing that vs what you are doing.

You're also ignoring the already posted statistics that the Ducks aren't below average at their 2+ round picks.

 

[snarktacular]

You're also ignoring the already posted statistics that the Ducks aren't below average at their 2+ round picks.

That doesn't mean anything. It's just going to regress to the mean.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

But that only matters if we moved that player for something useful. That's my whole point. Who cares if they went on to a good career if they didn't produce squat for us? Our staff did a bad job picking that player because we was worthless to us.

this is so wrong, you have to be trolling

 

[Kalv]

Past is a past.

We have to look at it starting from 09, imo. That`s when our current staff strted to work together more or less.

2nd rounders still have some potential, at least some of them. Imo we could do a better job (we have a room to grow) in later rounds. For example, in 2012 we picked Cooper, and 10 picks later Washington picked Carrick. They are about the same size and Carrick actually is a right hander which we don`t have so many in our organisation. Few years later, Cooper is nothing impressive in college , while Carrick already scored 1 goal in the NHL and had fairly good WJC.

I proably sound too harsh, as i am happy for our scouting staff, but sometimes we tend to overrate it a little. Turns out we won`t get always the BPA

 

[bminucci]

That doesn't mean anything. It's just going to regress to the mean.

forgot the

 

[TheJoeMan]

God forbid someone propose an opinion based on facts. Whatever. If this pick turns into a second great. If not no big deal. This league is built on first rounders anyway.

 

[justheducks]

God forbid someone propose an opinion based on facts. Whatever. If this pick turns into a second great. If not no big deal. This league is built on first rounders anyway.

It is a big deal because that is 30 spots higher in a draft. With our scouting staff as good as it is I want the pick to be 30 spots higher. Not to mention if Toronto really starts to look bad and goes through another injury problem and Holland comes up. If they start to lose and end up finishing in the bottom 5-7 range then that pick is #35 instead of #65. You can now package that pick with the Ducks pick at #25-30 and you can move up into the #15-20 range. If it is a #65 pick then it can be used to move up a few spots.
Not to mention having 3 picks in the top #35-#40 is huge for trading at the draft. We traded up 2 2nd rounders to move up into the late first round and pick up some kid named Corey Perry.
So yes it is a big deal.

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

If TOR starts spiraling to the bottom of the standings, you can bet Holland will not play 25 games.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

God forbid someone propose an opinion based on facts. Whatever. If this pick turns into a second great. If not no big deal. This league is built on first rounders anyway.

So why have a second to seventh rounds to pick?

Anyhow, it's alright to have propose an opinion based upon APPROPRIATE facts and supported with peripheral context. But don't get butt hurt when you're disproven. Just say, "My bad." and move along.

Quit trolling.

 

[TheJoeMan]

So why have a second to seventh rounds to pick?

Anyhow, it's alright to have propose an opinion based upon APPROPRIATE facts and supported with peripheral context. But don't get butt hurt when you're disproven. Just say, "My bad." and move along.

Quit trolling.

How am I trolling? I made a statement, backed it up with facts and have been blasted for it. And I haven't been disproven. Since 2005 he haven't had a single player of significance who was selected in the second stick on this team yet. Furthermore we traded many away with little return. These are facts. Now everyone seems to disagree with me whether that means these picks were wasted or not and that's fine. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. I'm hopeful that this trend is on the up swing beccause the last four drafts have yielded what appear to be very promsing prospects from the second round. But until they actually pan out they can't be included in this debate. I'm not going to say "my bad" but let's please move on.

And as for the importance of that pick being a second. Yes it would be better but it's not the end of the world if it's not. We still have our own second and two firsts not to mention a bunch of prospects waiting in the wings. It isn't a big deal. It's potentially icing on the cake.

 

[Phion Keneuf]

Holland up. Enjoy the 2nd

@mirtle
Jerry D'Amigo goes down to the Marlies to make room for Holland, who had three goals in two AHL games. #leafs

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

Holland up. Enjoy the 2nd

@mirtle
Jerry D'Amigo goes down to the Marlies to make room for Holland, who had three goals in two AHL games. #leafs

That is good news. Still need 3 more games though.

 

[Ducksforcup]

Holland up. Enjoy the 2nd

@mirtle
Jerry D'Amigo goes down to the Marlies to make room for Holland, who had three goals in two AHL games. #leafs

Wow, that did not take long.

Good news!

 

[Markus078]

Maybe a trade is in the air in Toronto.

 

[Phion Keneuf]

Maybe a trade is in the air in Toronto.

i think all the air is in the heads of our management ....

but i sure hope so

 

[Hockey Duckie]

Holland up. Enjoy the 2nd

@mirtle
Jerry D'Amigo goes down to the Marlies to make room for Holland, who had three goals in two AHL games. #leafs

Toronto is falling for that trap that our NHL club fell for. Holland dominates the AHL... that's nothing new. It's translating that play at the NHL level that's the problem. ha ha ha

Three more games! Three more games! Three more games!