Prospect Info: Peter Holland

[airforceones25]

People are awful hopeful if they think you should get a quality player in the mid to late rounds. LMAO

Its very hard and a total crap shoot 99% of the time. If a player becomes successful from beyond the 2nd round you should be thankful… I don't consider a team like Detroit good because they got a stud in Datsyuk in the 6th round. If they knew he was gonna be as great as he was you don't take the chance and draft him in the 6th. You take him in the 1st.

People that expect every player to pan out is laughable. If you can pull two career NHL players out of a draft that should be considered a very good draft. Hell tons of first round players become fringe NHL players or bottom 6 guys. 2nd round players are no more of a guarantee..

 

[paine]

Really depends on the organization. To me, the Ducks should value draft picks more heavily than say the Islanders.

 

[TheJoeMan]

Really depends on the organization. To me, the Ducks should value draft picks more heavily than say the Islanders.

Why's that? We only have players on our team right now who we're drafted by us. I'd say the opposite is true.

 

[Paul4587]

Its very hard and a total crap shoot 99% of the time. If a player becomes successful from beyond the 2nd round you should be thankful… I don't consider a team like Detroit good because they got a stud in Datsyuk in the 6th round. If they knew he was gonna be as great as he was you don't take the chance and draft him in the 6th. You take him in the 1st.

That's not true at all. If you know he is going to drop you use your first on somebody who won't be around later on. Nobody had any clue who Datsyuk was when he was drafted, Detroit knew they could wait and pick him up later. If they did use their first on Datsyuk then they miss out on Jiri Fischer.

I've read multiple articles with scouts saying we liked this guy the most but knowing they could get him in a later round allowed them to pick up another quality guy early.

 

[KaseMeOutside]

Devo is the best second rounder we have had in years. Shultz was previous one...

I think our drafting is overrated. Don`t want to sound like a dick, but - we are not so good at the later rounds. A lot of teams are finding good players there.
Andersen, Vatanen and maybe Roy looks like good picks, but others are really nothing impressive. Other teams have found a lot of gems in the lower rounds. We have 2,5 in 4 years. Nothing horrible, but nothing great either.

We benefited a lot from having few extra picks and we got Etem, Palmieri. With Fowler we were just incredibly lucky.
Lindholm was an awesome pick But we got him and Kerdiles after finishing at the bottom. Theodore might be a good one, but his defensive side is still a big concern - can`t say he was a bad pick, though. First round is not so bad (probably the ''worst'' 1st rounder we had since 09 is Holland). But we can and we should really work on those later rounds - imo, we are not so good at them

nobody's going to hit on alot of mid round picks, the point is to find some guys, that doesn't make your drafting overrated. the value of many of those players has risen to the point where they are useful trade bait , so whether they are busts or not still good picks w/value

 

[Ducksgo*]

Thank you for ignoring the part where I said this could change in a couple years since, as you pointed out, we have a number of promising prospects. Prospects.They aren't NHL players yet and for all we know never will. I'm confident these players should make the jump but we can't assume that. Oh and Smith-Pelly hasn't panned out yet and how many games has Schultz played for us?

If you look at the post-05 lockout alone we have a lot of gems like Mikkelson, Swan, Tangradi, O'Dell, Deschamps, and Clark. It hasn't been good.

"as of now our track record with second round picks blows"

That's what you said. Does it really matter if Schultz played for us or not? He was a 2nd round pick for us and playing for EDM. DSP is doing well and I'm sure the entire fan base knows he's a NHLer. On top of Bryz and Cullen I full heartedly disagree that our 2nd round pick selection are close to the "suck" definition. Yah we've had some bad ones but pulled out some good. No way I categorize it as the suck though

 

[TheJoeMan]

"as of now our track record with second round picks blows"

That's what you said. Does it really matter if Schultz played for us or not? He was a 2nd round pick for us and playing for EDM. DSP is doing well and I'm sure the entire fan base knows he's a NHLer. On top of Bryz and Cullen I full heartedly disagree that our 2nd round pick selection are close to the "suck" definition. Yah we've had some bad ones but pulled out some good. No way I categorize it as the suck though

Of course it matters. Schultz doesn't play for us nor was he used to acquire someone who plays for us. That pick was wasted because of his bull **** decision. You can't include players who haven't made it on this team yet. You can only judge the players that have made it or proved will never make it. Smith-Pelly MIGHT pan out but until he's a full-time NHL player he's part of that group that's too early to evaluate. We've had a lot more busts than useful players, there's no disputing that. If in five years our team includes those recent second rounders or assets acquired by trading them then I can revised my statement. But AS OF NOW that is not the case.

 

[Kalv]

nobody's going to hit on alot of mid round picks, the point is to find some guys, that doesn't make your drafting overrated. the value of many of those players has risen to the point where they are useful trade bait , so whether they are busts or not still good picks w/value

I am not asking for everyone to be an NHL player

 

[paine]

Why's that? We only have players on our team right now who we're drafted by us. I'd say the opposite is true.

Look at our draft history as of late. Murray can trust his scouting staff to find prospects in the 2nd, 3rd, and later rounds.

 

[Professor John Frink]

"as of now our track record with second round picks blows"

That's what you said. Does it really matter if Schultz played for us or not? He was a 2nd round pick for us and playing for EDM. DSP is doing well and I'm sure the entire fan base knows he's a NHLer. On top of Bryz and Cullen I full heartedly disagree that our 2nd round pick selection are close to the "suck" definition. Yah we've had some bad ones but pulled out some good. No way I categorize it as the suck though

Just for reference in this debate. 2nd round picks for the Ducks:

1993: Nikolai Tsulygin - 22 NHL games played
1994: Johan Davidsson - 82 NHL games played
1995: Brian Wesenberg - 1 NHL game played
1996: Matt Cullen - 1117 NHL games played
1997: Maxim Balmochnyk - 6 NHL games played
1998: Stephan Peat - 130 NHL games played
1999: Joran Leopold - 640 NHL games played
2000: Ilya Bryzgalov - 438 NHL games played
2001: Mark Popovic - 81 NHL games played
2002: Tim Brent - 207 NHL games played
2003: No 2nd round pick
2004: Jordan Smith - 0 NHL Games played
2005: Brendan Mikkelson - 131 NHL games played
2006: Bryce Swan - 0 NHL games played
2007: Eric Tangradi - 116 NHL games played
2008: Nicolas Deschamps - 0 NHL games played/Eric O'Dell - 6 NHL games played
2009: Mat Clark - 2 NHL games played
2010: Devante Smith Pelly - 72 NHL games played


That is as comfortable as I feel we can go in the draft to evaluate their 2nd round selections.

Clearly had some time on my hands.

 

[TheJoeMan]

Look at our draft history as of late. Murray can trust his scouting staff to find prospects in the 2nd, 3rd, and later rounds.

True. But by that same rationale you can say that we have a good stockpile of prospects right now and can afford to use some picks to acquire players right now. Especially considering how many young players we have on our roster already signed to long-term deals.

 

[paine]

True. But by that same rationale you can say that we have a good stockpile of prospects right now and can afford to use some picks to acquire players right now. Especially considering how many young players we have on our roster already signed to long-term deals.

Of course, I wasn't referring to this season, just in general. I agree the Ducks have the assets to make a move.

 

[Theridion]

So the argument in the Holland thread is.. "dont move either of the 1st round picks because they are more likely nhlers, and getting 2 quality nhlers in the upcoming draft after a successful season would be amazing"

Which i agree with.

 

[quentez]

What the heck is the story behind the double selection of Tim Brent? That's as weird as draft stuff gets.

 

[GreatBear]

What the heck is the story behind the double selection of Tim Brent? That's as weird as draft stuff gets.

If a team does not sign a draft choice who played in the juniors or overseas within two years of the draft, the player goes back into the draft. Brent was drafted in the second round when he was 18, but refused to sign with the Ducks within that two year period. When Brent went back into the draft, the Ducks drafted him again, this time in the third round. Brent then signed with the Ducks.

The Ducks got Anderson this same way. He was originally drafted by Carolina, but refused to sign with him. When he was available two years later, the Ducks drafted him.

 

[snarktacular]

If a team does not sign a draft choice who played in the juniors or overseas within two years of the draft, the player goes back into the draft. Brent was drafted in the second round when he was 18, but refused to sign with the Ducks within that two year period. When Brent went back into the draft, the Ducks drafted him again, this time in the third round. Brent then signed with the Ducks.

The Ducks got Anderson this same way. He was originally drafted by Carolina, but refused to sign with him. When he was available two years later, the Ducks drafted him.

To add to this, this is kind of similar to what happened to Schultz in that Schultz refused to sign before his draft rights expired. Only that his class of draftee becomes a UFA after 4 years of rights, vs CHL going back into the draft after 2 years of rights.

 

[Mr Rogers]

I just have a weird feeling that Holland will in fact not play 3 more NHL games this year.

 

[Kalv]

Just for reference in this debate. 2nd round picks for the Ducks:

1993: Nikolai Tsulygin - 22 NHL games played
1994: Johan Davidsson - 82 NHL games played
1995: Brian Wesenberg - 1 NHL game played
1996: Matt Cullen - 1117 NHL games played
1997: Maxim Balmochnyk - 6 NHL games played
1998: Stephan Peat - 130 NHL games played
1999: Joran Leopold - 640 NHL games played
2000: Ilya Bryzgalov - 438 NHL games played
2001: Mark Popovic - 81 NHL games played
2002: Tim Brent - 207 NHL games played
2003: No 2nd round pick
2004: Jordan Smith - 0 NHL Games played
2005: Brendan Mikkelson - 131 NHL games played
2006: Bryce Swan - 0 NHL games played
2007: Eric Tangradi - 116 NHL games played
2008: Nicolas Deschamps - 0 NHL games played/Eric O'Dell - 6 NHL games played
2009: Mat Clark - 2 NHL games played
2010: Devante Smith Pelly - 72 NHL games played


That is as comfortable as I feel we can go in the draft to evaluate their 2nd round selections.

Clearly had some time on my hands.

You are missing Shultz

 

[Vipers31]

I wouldn't expect it, either. Always seemed likely he wouldn't hit that mark. Given the few minutes he has played it's actually a bit of a shock they kept him up for so long.

Actually, the wild card is Carlyle's situation. His tenure with the Leafs might come to an end sooner rather than later, and if a new coach likes Holland, he could suddenly find himself in higher demand and make for a good "statement" line-up change for a while. But we'll just have to wait and see.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

Really depends on the organization. To me, the Ducks should value draft picks more heavily than say the Islanders.

Eh? I think every GM values picks. They may not manage them well, but they're all valued.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

The object of a draft isn't to select players that will eventually be NHL players necessarily, it's to select players that will provide value to your team.

Clearly, you do not comprehend what you say. If the players you do draft do not project to the NHL, then why draft them? They are assets that can help your team in the future by being on the team or being traded. Also, the notion that a drafted player will immediately contribute is astronomically asinine. It is best to draft best player available. You want players that fit your system, then you can trade for them like a Ben Lovejoy or Mathieu Perreault, at a much lower cost.

Also, you associate this current scouting staff with all of the Ducks' 2nd round picks, instead of the picks they have actually made.

You seem quite inconsistent in thought and relations.

 

[TheJoeMan]

Clearly, you do not comprehend what you say. If the players you do draft do not project to the NHL, then why draft them? They are assets that can help your team in the future by being on the team or being traded. Also, the notion that a drafted player will immediately contribute is astronomically asinine. It is best to draft best player available. You want players that fit your system, then you can trade for them like a Ben Lovejoy or Mathieu Perreault, at a much lower cost.

Also, you associate this current scouting staff with all of the Ducks' 2nd round picks, instead of the picks they have actually made.

You seem quite inconsistent in thought and relations.

You clearly didn't comprehend what I said because everything you just said is exactly what I meant.

Let me clarify: When examining drafted players retroactively you can't count a player with a lot of NHL experience as a quality draft pick for YOUR team if you didn't get any value out of that player. Leopold and Schultz are quality players but we lost them for nothing so those picks, for us, were busts. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear but we're on the same page.

 

[Ducks DVM]

You clearly didn't comprehend what I said because everything you just said is exactly what I meant.

Let me clarify: When examining drafted players retroactively you can't count a player with a lot of NHL experience as a quality draft pick for YOUR team if you didn't get any value out of that player. Leopold and Schultz are quality players but we lost them for nothing so those picks, for us, were busts. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear but we're on the same page.

The picks weren't busts. The trades that were made afterward were busts. That doesn't mean the team hasn't had good success with their drafting.

 

[snarktacular]

I'm a little back and forth on that topic.

On one hand, the drafting focus is generally BPA and not team utility. So in that case it doesn't matter if the player took too long or demanded a trade or whatever because the drafters don't take that into account. And like DVM said, in some cases the blame would seem to be on the GM or director of player personnel.

OTH scouting also sometimes takes into account NHL-readiness. And they do try to vet a prospect's personality. So maybe the draft team does take some responsibility for Schultz dicking out, or Ryan not being able to spell intense.


I think in terms of "what a pick is worth to use vs to trade away," it might make sense to look more holistically as to whether the player actually contributed to the original team. However in terms of "do we have a good scouting staff" or "how good is our drafting," I would tend to include guys who blossomed elsewhere.

 

[quentez]

If a team does not sign a draft choice who played in the juniors or overseas within two years of the draft, the player goes back into the draft. Brent was drafted in the second round when he was 18, but refused to sign with the Ducks within that two year period. When Brent went back into the draft, the Ducks drafted him again, this time in the third round. Brent then signed with the Ducks.

The Ducks got Anderson this same way. He was originally drafted by Carolina, but refused to sign with him. When he was available two years later, the Ducks drafted him.

Yes, so I've read on Wikipedia. I was really looking more for the back story behind the whole thing.

Andersen isn't the same story, because he didn't want to sign for Carolina specifically.