Per Friedman: Coyotes players told team moving to Utah starting next season (Mod warning post #50)

[serp]

It's becoming pretty clear that the NHL has become too fed up with Murello and his lies and empty promises that they decided they needed to act fast . The arena situation just was not acceptable and it seems like there was nobody else in AZ that had any interest in the Yotes . If someone did i doubt the NHL would've greenlit the sale to Murello , who looked sketchy AF right from the beginning , in the first place.

The group in SLC is willing to take the Yotes right now so this was the decision they made to get out of the Murello mess.

Sure the NHL aparently gave Murello exclusive expansion rights for the next couple of years but does anyone really expect him to fullfill the requirements for that ? I sure hope not after how much he's lied since buying the Yotes.

Pretty sure the NHL wants to be in the Phoenix area but if Murello is the only option to do it thats just not worth it.

 

[ItWasJustified]

You seem to lack a fundamental understanding of what drives NHL decisions.

I don't lack that at all. It's the NHL that lack a fundamental understanding of their fans and you who lack a fundamental understanding of anything it seems. Population doesn't matter to the degree you and the NHL believe it does. What ultimately matter THE most is what I've already said: The number of hockey fans and the plan to create more,

 

[Drake1588]

I feel really badly for the Coyotes fans who have had to put up with a lot of crap from dodgy ownership groups over the decades, which the NHL should have vetted better. After sticking it out this long, those fans deserve better. I hope they get an expansion team soon; I'm quite sure the NHL wants back into that market.

There's a lot of slagging on SLC and Utah from either miffed Canadians or Arizona hockey fans across this thread. I've no personal ties or stake, but having been to SLC and seen quite a bit of the state as a tourist, Utah is awesome. It's got a different kind of attraction than some other cities. It's going to lure in people who love the outdoors, camping, hiking, winter sports, incredible parks, and clean climate more than nightlife. As for SLC, it's cosmopolitan, clean, there's plenty of people there in terms of market size and it's a very wealthy city.

There's nothing edgy or exciting about the place, but it's a good sports market. Season ticket and sponsorship dollars are there and will be stable. The people of SLC love winter sports. I think the team will thrive there and wish them well.

 

[Hodge]

I don't lack that at all. It's the NHL that lack a fundamental understanding of their fans and you who lack a fundamental understanding of anything it seems. Population doesn't matter to the degree you and the NHL believe it does. What ultimately matter THE most is what I've already said: The number of hockey fans and the plan to create more,

Wrong. What matters is how many American eyeballs they can stick their DraftKings ads in front of.

 

[JS19]

Phoenix is a lucrative media market with a substantial corporate base unlike [insert backwater Canadian town here]. The NHL will be back.

On paper yes, but how many times do we have to rely on that when we have nearly 30 years of results with the Coyotes post-relocation? At what point do we go "Hm maybe there isn't as much of a market here as we initially thought"? (Especially when you consider that throughout the lifespan of NHL teams, they aren't always going to be good forever. It matters how you deal with the bad years. Something that teams right now are struggling with. See: Winnipeg Jets concern re: season ticket base and lack of corporate buyers). All that potential in the world means nothing if it's not backed up.
Yes, I understand the majority of those years were rife with bad ownership, bad roster construction, bad luck (particularly Sarver refusing to retrofit Footprint Center to accommodate an NHL team) but it also had elements of bad business too.

Quebec City is a cultural capital of the world compared to literally any American city.

That's not relevant in business matters. Do keep in mind that with the landscape of NHL rights, Rogers is on record saying they lost money in the rights deal with the NHL. Do you really think adding Quebec City is going to move the needle that much?

 

[Megustaelhockey]

Because being that has made the Coyotes so successful, right?

Cairo metro area population are over 4 times that. Mexico City too. What about Delhi? Good of you to name a bigger city than Quebec City, but as you can see, I can do that too. Do you want to name some other cities that are bigger to no point whatsoever?

This team was never going back to Canada.

I know the media has drilled into Canadian fans of a certain age that there need to be NHL clubs in Quebec City, Hamilton, Halifax, Saskatoon, Flin Flon, and more, but this kind of whataboutism just looks very silly.

 

[shenmue16]

The population debate is irrelevant when the population generally has no interest in your team. All these people who never went to games weren't just sitting at home watching games, they had no interest. Just because you have some massive metro area doesn't mean you will attract fans. They had 28 years to make this work, couldn't get it done. NHL should not return without a new arena and/or new ownership group, however this will never happen.

 

[ItWasJustified]

I don’t see what’s so great about a fanbase losing its team

It's great for the league to get what seems like a serious owner and a serious team wanting to compete and to be rid of the money hole that's been the Coyotes for 15+ years. It's sad for the fans.

Wrong. What matters is how many American eyeballs they can stick their DraftKings ads in front of.

Wrong. That's what you and the NHL think matters.

Rogers is on record saying they lost money in the rights deal with the NHL. Do you really think adding Quebec City is going to move the needle that much?

You don't think that more Canadian teams = more money from Canadian TV rights?

This team was never going back to Canada.

I'm fully aware of that. They would never move a western team to the east now that the conferences are 16/16 and exactly half the league makes the playoffs.

But Quebec City and Arizona/Houston should be the next expansion markets, not Atlanta.

 

[JS19]

You don't think that more Canadian teams = more money from Canadian TV rights?

No, because media rights deals are more nuanced than just "/insert more team = more money." For instance, regional blackouts have been a deadhorse-beaten, common complaint of any NHL fan, which directly limits how much of the product they get access to, EVEN if you are a Canadian and want to watch Canadian teams. There's also the changing business landscape where people are favouring streaming over cable, which directly hurts Rogers' ability to leverage Sportsnet subscribers.

Both are examples of business elements hurting the Rogers-NHL rights that go beyond just assuming adding more teams would increase profitability (more specifically, these are service delivering issues).

 

[Hodge]

The population debate is irrelevant when the population generally has no interest in your team. All these people who never went to games weren't just sitting at home watching games, they had no interest. Just because you have some massive metro area doesn't mean you will attract fans. They had 28 years to make this work, couldn't get it done. NHL should not return without a new arena and/or new ownership group, however this will never happen.

Not only did they never have a stable arena or ownership situation, the team was literally never good. Downtown Phoenix arena + competitive team = successful franchise which is why the NHL will definitely try again.

 

[yzerman]

I think Salt Lake City is a great relocate city for Arizona Where will they play in Salt lake city?which arena?

 

[JS19]

Not only did they never have a stable arena or ownership situation, the team was literally never good. Downtown Phoenix arena + competitive team = successful franchise which is why the NHL will definitely try again.

They will try again but good luck. Why do you think they gave Meruelo a 5 year window? It's clear the NHL expects a lot of difficulty with the logistics behind land and business deals, based on recent and past experience. The land deals have been a mess no matter which region of Phoenix they've gone to. You say they need to go downtown but where??? They tried Footprint Center back in the day when they moved from Winnipeg, but the arena was terrible for sightlines and it was only ever constructed for basketball.

Even if you hedge your bets on Mat Ishbia allowing the Coyotes to use the Center, then your next problem is to deal with the logistics of how that would work from a fan experience standpoint (chances are, Mat Ishbia did not pursue ownership for a reason, and is paying for renovations to the Footprint, so I very much doubt that he's interested in helping out). If you say go elsewhere within Downtown, good luck finding space and I hope they have pockets, considering real estate is more expensive now than it's been in the past. Not to mention, word is that the municipality aren't exactly open to having their hand in 2 arenas.

 

[serp]

Not only did they never have a stable arena or ownership situation, the team was literally never good. Downtown Phoenix arena + competitive team = successful franchise which is why the NHL will definitely try again.

In the early 2010's the team was half decent for a 3 year stretch . Even made the WCF in 2012 . IRC it was a story back then that the team didn't sell out during the WCF either.

 

[CascadiaPenguin]

I wouldn't call Phoenix a major media market. It's sizable, but that's reserved for regions like NYC, LA, DMV, Bay Area and Chicagoland. Then you got a next tier of like Boston, Philadelphia, Atlanta, South Florida, Houston and Dallas before you start talking about places like Phoenix, Seattle, Minneapolis, Detroit, etc.

I don't understand why you wouldn't consider the 11th largest media market in the U.S. "major". I think you'd be in the minority, with that. ;-). Who even knows what words like that mean, if anything. You have South Florida way over-ranked as well and Philly and Houston way under. Houston is used to that, folks don't realize how damn big it and its suburbs are.

Anyway, top 20 rankings for US metro media mkts are:
NY, LA, Chicago, Philly, DFW, Atlanta, Houston, DC, Boston, Bay Area, Phoenix, Seattle, Tampa, Detroit, Twin Cities, Denver, Orlando, Miami/FtL, Cleveland, and Sacramento. And yeah, there are some expansive geographic areas in that group, Orlando stretching to Daytona and Cleveland gets Akron and Canton, fwiw.

 

[ItWasJustified]

No, because media rights deals are more nuanced than just "/insert more team = more money." For instance, regional blackouts have been a deadhorse-beaten, common complaint of any NHL fan, which directly limits how much of the product they get access to, EVEN if you are a Canadian and want to watch Canadian teams. There's also the changing business landscape where people are favouring streaming over cable, which directly hurts Rogers' ability to leverage Sportsnet subscribers.

Both are examples of business elements hurting the Rogers-NHL rights that go beyond just assuming adding more teams would increase profitability (more specifically, these are service delivering issues).

North Americans always think they know best when in reality all your business models stinks.

 

[majormajor]

Not only did they never have a stable arena or ownership situation, the team was literally never good. Downtown Phoenix arena + competitive team = successful franchise which is why the NHL will definitely try again.

I agree with you, but the land auction site Meruelo is (was?) pursuing is 20 miles north of downtown phoenix on the edge of the desert.

Is that site no longer expected to be the target?

The other caveat is that the Phoenix metro is so full of low density sprawl that people in large parts of it can't even get to downtown Phoenix for a game.

They will try again but good luck. Why do you think they gave Meruelo a 5 year window? It's clear the NHL expects a lot of difficulty with the logistics behind land and business deals, based on recent and past experience. The land deals have been a mess no matter which region of Phoenix they've gone to. You say they need to go downtown but where??? They tried Footprint Center back in the day when they moved from Winnipeg, but the arena was terrible for sightlines and it was only ever constructed for basketball.

Even if you hedge your bets on Mat Ishbia allowing the Coyotes to use the Center, then your next problem is to deal with the logistics of how that would work from a fan experience standpoint (chances are, Mat Ishbia did not pursue ownership for a reason, and is paying for renovations to the Footprint, so I very much doubt that he's interested in helping out). If you say go elsewhere within Downtown, good luck finding space and I hope they have pockets, considering real estate is more expensive now than it's been in the past. Not to mention, word is that the municipality aren't exactly open to having their hand in 2 arenas.

I took a quick look at downtown Phoenix and there are empty lots all over the place within a couple miles of downtown. I think there just isn't an appetite to have two arenas in the same area. Not from the city or from Meruelo or any prospective Coyotes owner.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

They hid it from players and staff?

Jeez...were they planning on bringing in Mayflower moving vans in the middle of the night, as well?

 

[General Fanager]

They hid it from players and staff?

Jeez...were they planning on bringing in Mayflower moving vans in the middle of the night, as well?

That's just media being trouble makers....

They obviously couldn't tell anyone until it was a done deal.....Then someone leaked it so they had no choice.

 

[Edenjung]

I think Salt Lake City is a great relocate city for Arizona Where will they play in Salt lake city?which arena?

Delta Center.
11k seats bad sightlines and old as hell (30th in the NHL by age).

 

[Dread Clawz]

I feel really badly for the Coyotes fans who have had to put up with a lot of crap from dodgy ownership groups over the decades, which the NHL should have vetted better. After sticking it out this long, those fans deserve better. I hope they get an expansion team soon; I'm quite sure the NHL wants back into that market.

There's a lot of slagging on SLC and Utah from either miffed Canadians or Arizona hockey fans across this thread. I've no personal ties or stake, but having been to SLC and seen quite a bit of the state as a tourist, Utah is awesome. It's got a different kind of attraction than some other cities. It's going to lure in people who love the outdoors, camping, hiking, winter sports, incredible parks, and clean climate more than nightlife. As for SLC, it's cosmopolitan, clean, there's plenty of people there in terms of market size and it's a very wealthy city.

There's nothing edgy or exciting about the place, but it's a good sports market. Season ticket and sponsorship dollars are there and will be stable. The people of SLC love winter sports. I think the team will thrive there and wish them well.

Phoenix will be back. Just like Atlanta....you just don't let that market go. Too much money to be made down the road.

 

[FMichael]

I think Salt Lake City is a great relocate city for Arizona Where will they play in Salt lake city?which arena?

Delta Center - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Tuoppi]

They should start a new professional league to Eastern Canada with cities like Toronto, Montreal, Gatineau, Quebec city, Hamilton, Kitchener, London and Halifax.

 

[PBandJ]

My sincere condolences to the Arizona fans. It all sucks, plain and simple. Hopefully you get a team with a legit owner in a few years.

 

[FMichael]

It's becoming pretty clear that the NHL has become too fed up with Murello and his lies and empty promises that they decided they needed to act fast . The arena situation just was not acceptable and it seems like there was nobody else in AZ that had any interest in the Yotes . If someone did i doubt the NHL would've greenlit the sale to Murello , who looked sketchy AF right from the beginning , in the first place.

The group in SLC is willing to take the Yotes right now so this was the decision they made to get out of the Murello mess.

Sure the NHL aparently gave Murello exclusive expansion rights for the next couple of years but does anyone really expect him to fullfill the requirements for that ? I sure hope not after how much he's lied since buying the Yotes.

Pretty sure the NHL wants to be in the Phoenix area but if Murello is the only option to do it thats just not worth it.

Was it not more than a few years ago there was the Katie Strand report on Murillo and his shady business practices such as not paying vendors and wanting to rewrite contracts?

I seem to recall this guy was bad news from the start.

 

[RangerBoy]

Utah will be active in the free agency and in the trade market. The franchise has so many draft picks and young players. Tons of cap space. It will be interesting to see them spend money this summer.