Per Friedman: Coyotes players told team moving to Utah starting next season (Mod warning post #50)

[NYR94]

 

[Dr Pepper]

"The wait is finally over..........in about three years!"

 

[Legion34]

No, there aren't markets who support the team even in down years. We've discussed this a number of times. There's 3 in the NHL: the Maple Leafs, Canadiens and Rangers. Every other team has demonstrated once things get bad, fans start staying away and the longer it's bad the more fans stay away.

This includes the Blackhawks [which are currently demonstrating it], the Canucks [which demonstrated it in the recent past], the Bruins [who did it post-lockout] and the Oilers [where fans started staying away when the 5-year rebuild started going into a 6th, 7th, 8th year with increasing condescension from Lowe and MacTavish] and the Jets [as has been noted in threads here].


That's true when talking about any team and market, relative to any other team and market. That's also reality.

And, as I've tried pointing out numerous times: the Coyotes have been a losing team for the vast majority of 20 years. 4 playoff appearances since 2002-03, 1 since 2012-13 which was in the bubble in Edmonton. Buffalo hasn't seen the playoffs since 2011, hasn't been within 10 points of a playoff spot but twice in that span, and fans there have had enough and aren't showing up most nights - and that's a real hockey market with real hockey fans. It is really difficult to get fans to pay for tickets to see losing on a nightly basis, it's even more so in a market where a slew of owners have done about everything wrong they possibly could in running a franchise.

Because it's devastating to your argument? It's absolutely relevant: it underscores that no matter what sport we're talking about, fans show up for winning teams and they don't for losing teams - and the longer a team is bad, the more fans stay away.


When you can establish that they have a right to a team because they'll pay more than fans in another city, sure - they can have a team. Until then, fans don't own teams and don't have any say in where teams operate. Owners do.

It doesn't matter how many fans are in some other city that will pay more. If an owner doesn't want to set up shop there, or conditions are such that the owner can't find a place to play under terms he deems to be suitable, it doesn't matter if fans in that other city will shell out $500 a ticket: the owner isn't setting up there for the alleged lure of money if the conditions attached make it too onerous (in his opinion) to operate there.

If fans want to buy a team, they should go read up on the league's requirements for ownership and form a group that conforms to those requirements, and then enjoy all the benefits (and pitfalls) that go along with team ownership.

There are levels. Arizona after 30 years has little fan base. Almost zero footprint and has been taken over by the league and sold back to a guy who couldn’t pay the hotdog guy.

There are no teams that have had this level of money loss and lack of interest that still have a team. The team was owned by the league for 5 years.

Equating ups and downs to this is just ridiculous.
This is a false dichotomy. More fans and less fans based on winning makes sense.

Allowing a team to exist in a market that hasn’t supported them at any real level commensurate with making a profit makes no sense.

I am not saying fans have a right to a team. You are. It’s not about the fans feelings. It’s irrelevant to the actual business

There are not enough fans with enough support spending enough to make it work. That’s it.

 

[BiolaRunner]

Hard to imagine any perspective owner building an arena if the Coyotes leaves.

The big problem here is that the team has no home and none on the horizon either. If it's not getting built while they're there, I highly surprised it'll get built while they're gone.

Better owners might be able to get it done. The current owners barely campaigned for the Tempe arena proposal

 

[57special]

Hopefully the Hunt family buys them and moves them to KC. Arena is already built.

Sure, either there for the second time, or Atlanta for the third. Two places where they don't give a shit about hockey, as opposed to place like Hamilton/GTA, where they live and breathe it. What could go wrong with that plan?

 

[TheLegend]

I thought I saw something that the state isn't required to simply accept the highest bid. The nature of the project is part of winning the auction. @The Legend ?

The state has specific guidelines as to who qualifies to bid. Basics are this….

- You have to show up with a certified cashiers check (for this auction it’s ~$16 million.)

- Have the ability to close the sale within 30 days (state can extend under some circumstances).

- Have a vetted plan in place to develop the property. (ie: Can’t sit on it or flip it.)

 

[TheLegend]

Better owners might be able to get it done. The current owners barely campaigned for the Tempe arena proposal

Current owner spent north of a million in cash and performed several community events on top of that.

 

[McShogun99]

This reminds me of the commercial from South Park when they were rejuvenating the shitty wok part of town.

 

[ORRFForever]

As someone who followed this more than a decade ago, how is this not done yet?

 

[Dr Pepper]

This reminds me of the commercial from South Park when they were rejuvenating the shitty wok part of town.

"CtPaTwn. Welcome home."

 

[Ted Hoffman]

There are levels. Arizona after 30 years has little fan base.

And it's sucked ass for the last 20 years, but you keep ignoring that minor point.

Almost zero footprint and has been taken over by the league and sold back to a guy who couldn’t pay the hotdog guy.

That's the owner's problem until he stiffs the league.

There are no teams that have had this level of money loss and lack of interest that still have a team. The team was owned by the league for 5 years.

The league was owned by the league because .... you know what, it doesn't matter if I explain it to you, or point you to any of the hundreds of threads that discuss it, you'll just ignore that too.

This is a false dichotomy. More fans and less fans based on winning makes sense.

But you ignore it when it comes to Arizona because ... reasons.

Allowing a team to exist in a market that hasn’t supported them at any real level commensurate with making a profit makes no sense.

Leagues can't tell owners when and where they have to move teams. I can't believe you don't understand that.

I am not saying fans have a right to a team. You are.

No, I'm saying - and have said for years - that fans don't get to dictate where teams operate, and your kvetching and everyone else's kvetching about the Coyotes has as much impact on whether the Coyotes operate in Phoenix as the fish in my backyard pond have on global weather: none.

I'm also saying - and have said for years - that as long as Meruelo, or Moyes in a 2nd iteration, or anyone else wants to own and operate a team in Phoenix and lose tens of millions of dollars a year, that's impacts me, you and everyone else as much as your kvetching about the Coyotes being in Phoenix: not at all.

If you have future questions about what I think, ask me instead of pretending you know what I'm thinking when we both know you don't.

There are not enough fans with enough support spending enough to make it work. That’s it.

1. Cue every prior comment by me about why fans aren't supporting a team that's been shit for the better part of 20 years. Feel free to keep ignoring it, too.

2. If the Coyotes move, do you get a piece of the money that results? Do you get a break on ticket prices? No, you're not going to get a goddamn thing. The only thing it impacts is ... your ... feelings. Everything you've said here complaining about the Coyotes comes back to "I don't like it because it hurts my feelings."

My feelings don't matter it any of this. How I feel about what's going on re: any team in any market is irrelevant. What matters is the reality of how, when and why things are the way they are and why any of it may change, and none of that has to do with my feelings: it has to do with reality and how the world works. I at least understand that, because that's the world I work in and deal with and have to made decisions within accordingly. Your feelings don't matter in any of this, so quit using it as a basis for decisions on what should happen and why.

Sure, either there for the second time, or Atlanta for the third. Two places where they don't give a shit about hockey, as opposed to place like Hamilton/GTA, where they live and breathe it. What could go wrong with that plan?

When you have an owner for Hamilton/GTA and a suitable arena, let us know.

 

[Legion34]

And it's sucked ass for the last 20 years, but you keep ignoring that minor point.

That's the owner's problem until he stiffs the league.


The league was owned by the league because .... you know what, it doesn't matter if I explain it to you, or point you to any of the hundreds of threads that discuss it, you'll just ignore that too.

But you ignore it when it comes to Arizona because ... reasons.

Leagues can't tell owners when and where they have to move teams. I can't believe you don't understand that.


No, I'm saying - and have said for years - that fans don't get to dictate where teams operate, and your kvetching and everyone else's kvetching about the Coyotes has as much impact on whether the Coyotes operate in Phoenix as the fish in my backyard pond have on global weather: none.

I'm also saying - and have said for years - that as long as Meruelo, or Moyes in a 2nd iteration, or anyone else wants to own and operate a team in Phoenix and lose tens of millions of dollars a year, that's impacts me, you and everyone else as much as your kvetching about the Coyotes being in Phoenix: not at all.

If you have future questions about what I think, ask me instead of pretending you know what I'm thinking when we both know you don't.


1. Cue every prior comment by me about why fans aren't supporting a team that's been shit for the better part of 20 years. Feel free to keep ignoring it, too.

2. If the Coyotes move, do you get a piece of the money that results? Do you get a break on ticket prices? No, you're not going to get a goddamn thing. The only thing it impacts is ... your ... feelings. Everything you've said here complaining about the Coyotes comes back to "I don't like it because it hurts my feelings."

My feelings don't matter it any of this. How I feel about what's going on re: any team in any market is irrelevant. What matters is the reality of how, when and why things are the way they are and why any of it may change, and none of that has to do with my feelings: it has to do with reality and how the world works. I at least understand that, because that's the world I work in and deal with and have to made decisions within accordingly. Your feelings don't matter in any of this, so quit using it as a basis for decisions on what should happen and why.


When you have an owner for Hamilton/GTA and a suitable arena, let us know.

Explaining why what happened 20 years ago isn’t relevant.

What is relevant is that the market has shown zero interest in actually keeping the team or supporting them. You may believe that they may have at some other time. You may believe that if the world was different it would have been different.

It’s not relevant. What is relevant is the market has insufficient support. Negative revenue. An owner with multiple issues with contract history and timely payments.

No arena. A proposal that would still require approvals even if they win the land.

 

[Poppy Whoa Sonnet]

There’s nothing unique about Arizona that would make it be a bad place for an NHL team compared to the other warm weather markets that have been successful. If the coyotes and their ownership have poisoned the well and are forced to sell and move the team, Arizona becomes the top potential expansion location for a committed owner with an arena plan (see: where we currently are with Atlanta).

Maybe a reset is necessary, ownership simply can't be trusted and local governments are hostile to their arena plans. I get why Bettman is trying to keep the team alive though.

 

[tucker3434]

This has been my concern for a while. I just can't see a new ownership group wanting to fight this fight in AZ. Or, at least, not being willing to pay a premium for it if there are competing bids elsewhere. I'd want a real bargain to step into that arena mess.

 

[finkelsteinberg]

There are levels. Arizona after 30 years has little fan base. Almost zero footprint and has been taken over by the league and sold back to a guy who couldn’t pay the hotdog guy.

There are no teams that have had this level of money loss and lack of interest that still have a team. The team was owned by the league for 5 years.

Equating ups and downs to this is just ridiculous.
This is a false dichotomy. More fans and less fans based on winning makes sense.

Allowing a team to exist in a market that hasn’t supported them at any real level commensurate with making a profit makes no sense.

I am not saying fans have a right to a team. You are. It’s not about the fans feelings. It’s irrelevant to the actual business

There are not enough fans with enough support spending enough to make it work. That’s it.

You are talking about this as a matter of fact which is not the case. And when you say there are plenty of cities with fans that will support this team, why can't that city still be in AZ?

The move to Glendale by previous ownership was about greed and not what was right for the team or fans. The team was a way to get his land developed out there. The LOCATION was not good. Then ownership snowballed for a number of factors. Housing market failure that lead to recession, COVID and a whole host of other reasons.

When they were downtown, with obstructed views and had a competitive team, the fans showed up.

You are definitely one of the reasons why people get so annoyed with non AZ/non Yotes fans posting. You don't know how this state, it's cities, fans etc function. You know what you are told by hockey media, heavily Canadian, that have different agendas.

You have seen what this one post, by a local radio sports talk show host has done already. This guy has very little connection to the hockey world. His show spends very little time talking about hockey. He's a clown. The reporting had no sources and no time frame. For all we know, and seems likely, this was previous conversations that have already been reported. He intentionally regurgitated the info with vagueness because he wanted clicks.

Why don't we let this team finally get stable ownership, with an arena in a better location and see what happens? We are a bid, with a concrete date, away from finding out how this could all look.

 

[Legion34]

You are talking about this as a matter of fact which is not the case. And when you say there are plenty of cities with fans that will support this team, why can't that city still be in AZ?

The move to Glendale by previous ownership was about greed and not what was right for the team or fans. The team was a way to get his land developed out there. The LOCATION was not good. Then ownership snowballed for a number of factors. Housing market failure that lead to recession, COVID and a whole host of other reasons.

When they were downtown, with obstructed views and had a competitive team, the fans showed up.

You are definitely one of the reasons why people get so annoyed with non AZ/non Yotes fans posting. You don't know how this state, it's cities, fans etc function. You know what you are told by hockey media, heavily Canadian, that have different agendas.

You have seen what this one post, by a local radio sports talk show host has done already. This guy has very little connection to the hockey world. His show spends very little time talking about hockey. He's a clown. The reporting had no sources and no time frame. For all we know, and seems likely, this was previous conversations that have already been reported. He intentionally regurgitated the info with vagueness because he wanted clicks.

Why don't we let this team finally get stable ownership, with an arena in a better location and see what happens? We are a bid, with a concrete date, away from finding out how this could all look.

I don’t need to know the state fans etc. I know that there aren’t enough that support the team to the level required

Because in 30 years there has been no evidence under multiple ownerships, arenas, locations that this has ever been remotely successful.

Ownership would be stable if fans supported the team. Multiple teams have survived ridiculous and incompetent ownership without having to be bought by the league and playing second fiddle in a college arena.
They were rejected by another community in the state.
Where else would that happen?

There are fluctuations in success and fan support sure. Nothing like this though. Plenty of teams have had poor locations (sunrise/kanata) that have done better than this.

There is one post. Which has been denied. But also….. JG came out and said this is the last option. Are you honestly suggesting that a good business owner has never even considered plan B or talking to potential owners if this doesn’t work? They went all in on Tempe and they said no. Is it a smart owner that wouldn’t even consider talking to others about options considering the circumstances? Seems odd but I don’t know that he has shown good sense in this endeavour.

Even IF they win the land. It’s far from a gaurantee this project gets built. There is not a lot of evidence of them paying the bills on time

 

[Megustaelhockey]

That shot from the air makes the arena look like it has been drawn on the wall of a public bathroom lol.

 

[herashak]

Merulo is like a hot chick that keeps getting drinks from the NHL and gives out the wrong phone #. Send em to Toronto

 

[GrumpyKoala]

When you kind of wish Arizona don't win a cup so the rafter banner don't obstruct what left of your season ticket value

 

[Louie the Blue]

Leagues can't tell owners when and where they have to move teams. I can't believe you don't understand that.

The NFL explicitly told the Chargers, Raiders, and Rams that no team could move to LA until 2016 at the earliest. Guess what happened?

The Expos were forced to move from Montreal. Guess why? MLB owned the team and moved them to DC.

 

[finkelsteinberg]

I don’t need to know the state fans etc. I know that there aren’t enough that support the team to the level required

Because in 30 years there has been no evidence under multiple ownerships, arenas, locations that this has ever been remotely successful.

Ownership would be stable if fans supported the team. Multiple teams have survived ridiculous and incompetent ownership without having to be bought by the league and playing second fiddle in a college arena.
They were rejected by another community in the state.
Where else would that happen?

There are fluctuations in success and fan support sure. Nothing like this though. Plenty of teams have had poor locations (sunrise/kanata) that have done better than this.

There is one post. Which has been denied. But also….. JG came out and said this is the last option. Are you honestly suggesting that a good business owner has never even considered plan B or talking to potential owners if this doesn’t work? They went all in on Tempe and they said no. Is it a smart owner that wouldn’t even consider talking to others about options considering the circumstances? Seems odd but I don’t know that he has shown good sense in this endeavour.

Even IF they win the land. It’s far from a gaurantee this project gets built. There is not a lot of evidence of them paying the bills on time

They were rejected by Tempe voters who are 60+ that got suckered in to misinformation from a lobbying group supported by a labor union who was upset they didn't get the call for the work. This isn't the demographic who would even go to the games. But they got told their taxes were going up (they weren't) and that there would be more traffic with a host of other issues. This really never affected them but they were told it would. When you think about it, it sounds like you. This doesn't affect you, you don't have the correct information but yet you sit here as you do and have this grand statement that the state of AZ cannot support the team enough for them to stay. The reality is, we have just never had the stability needed with the correct location. Greed, recessions, morons doomed us.

One of the owners literally went bankrupt. Was that the fans doing because his trucking company screwed up and the economy was in shamble? The fans had no bearing on that...

It has been really hard to undo the previous mistakes by previous owners. If the original owner still had this team, and his plan for a building in Scottsdale was seen to fruition, we are likely not even talking about this. Instead, arena got built in Glendale. Super far west and especially at the time, not easy to get to. Some will still argue it isn't. Then ALL of the next owners were saddled with this location. Trying to make it work. With a whole country who has little appetite for using taxes to build new arenas, getting a new one was really not an option. Glendale itself played games and eventually the Yotes had to leave because it wasn't going to be sustainable. Glendale tried to force them to stay long-term, ruining the financial viability of moving. Meruelo said no because he knew for the team to succeed it needed to be where the majority of the fans and money are, the east valley.

Plenty of temas have had poor locations and have done better, sure. There are also many who haven't. Even teams with state handouts.

Again, we have the fans. We are the 5th largest city in the US. The Yotes just have not had the correct ownership since the crew that moved them to Glendale who created the situation of having an arena in the wrong area.

The paying bills on time is such a lazy statement that you think is some sort of gotcha that it isn't. The owner is a savvy businessman, trying to undo the previous ownerships mistakes. He has money. He has 2 casinos, he has resorts, a media company and much more.
.

 

[TheDawnOfANewTage]

View attachment 846576

When you kind of wish Arizona don't win a cup so the rafter banner don't obstruct what left of your season ticket value

1) No need to worry about this anytime soon. 2) a banner in that barn would block dump ins and clears, Tyler Myers would get clotheslined. I say do it.

 

[DustyDangler]

When they were downtown, with obstructed views and had a competitive team, the fans showed up.

True history.

There are maybe 3-4 other NHL markets that would've better supported a team who is 30 of 32 in all time points percentage.

 

[Vector]

The auction doesn't even take place until June and has to be up for 10 weeks. What are they even talking about?

 

[Dr Pepper]

The auction doesn't even take place until June and has to be up for 10 weeks. What are they even talking about?

They're just being as hopelessly optimistic as they need to be. Can't say I blame them.