Per Friedman: Coyotes players told team moving to Utah starting next season (Mod warning post #50)

[CupofOil]

Been trying to make this point. Vegas did the right thing and hired a veteran executive in McPhee. Seattle tried a relatively inexperienced executive and it showed.

Seattle had a 100 point season and made it to Game 7 of the 2nd round in its 2nd season, not exactly an example of a failed regime. What Vegas did was unprecedented sprinkled with some serious luck to start out so it's not a fair comparison.

 

[GKJ]

Meruelo is a con artist using the fact that the league has been desperate to stay in Arizona against them, along with the insistence of not having their franchise values look bad.

 

[JKG33]

Seattle had a 100 point season and made it to Game 7 of the 2nd round in its 2nd season, not exactly an example of a failed regime. What Vegas did was unprecedented sprinkled with some serious luck to start out so it's not a fair comparison.

I think it's pretty clear now after seeing their 1st and 3rd seasons where they missed the playoffs, that the 2nd season was them massively overachieving relative to where that roster should be.

They've got nothing on Vegas who unexpectedly went to the SCF in year 1 and were contenders ever since

 

[Captain Mountain]

I think it's pretty clear now after seeing their 1st and 3rd seasons where they missed the playoffs, that the 2nd season was them massively overachieving relative to where that roster should be.

They've got nothing on Vegas who unexpectedly went to the SCF in year 1 and were contenders ever since

Teams also learned lessons from the Vegas expansion draft and Seattle knew teams learned lessons from the Vegas expansion draft.

Seattle wasn't trying to do what Vegas did because teams weren't going to make the same kind of mistakes. Seattle is building through the draft and weren't in a position to obtain the same arsenal of picks. They also don't have the talent to justify going for it in the present, which is what Vegas has done since day one.

 

[JKG33]

Teams also learned lessons from the Vegas expansion draft and Seattle knew teams learned lessons from the Vegas expansion draft.

Seattle wasn't trying to do what Vegas did because teams weren't going to make the same kind of mistakes. Seattle is building through the draft and weren't in a position to obtain the same arsenal of picks. They also don't have the talent to justify going for it in the present, which is what Vegas has done since day one.

Nobody in their right mind after Vegas' expansion draft thought that team was a contender. But they did well to stock their war chest and build something.

Seattle actively did nothing. You can say the other GMs learned their lesson sure, but even still Seattle left a lot of talent on the board after their expansion draft. People looked at their mediocre roster and thought they'd repeat what Vegas did, but Seattle's management has nowhere near the killer instinct of Vegas, which to be fair few teams in the league do

 

[CupofOil]

I think it's pretty clear now after seeing their 1st and 3rd seasons where they missed the playoffs, that the 2nd season was them massively overachieving relative to where that roster should be.

They've got nothing on Vegas who unexpectedly went to the SCF in year 1 and were contenders ever since

I'm not comparing them to Vegas. That's the point, that Vegas is an unfair comparison because of how unprecedented their initial run was and everything since points to a top organization.

Of course the expansion rules are different now but Seattle is arguably the 2nd most successful expansion franchise in NHL history in their first 2 seasons. But yes, they certainly overachieved last season. I'm just saying that they've done pretty well all things considered.

 

[CraigBillington]

I Googled HRR and the first thing that popped up:

The league is projected to bring in record revenues from the 2021-22 season, likely around $5.3 billion, if not higher, according to NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman when hockey-related revenue (HRR) is officially tabulated.

I think the billionaire-owned teams have been just fine.

Just because they make a lot of money doesn't mean they don't want to make more

 

[Captain Mountain]

Nobody in their right mind after Vegas' expansion draft thought that team was a contender. But they did well to stock their war chest and build something.

Seattle actively did nothing. You can say the other GMs learned their lesson sure, but even still Seattle left a lot of talent on the board after their expansion draft. People looked at their mediocre roster and thought they'd repeat what Vegas did, but Seattle's management has nowhere near the killer instinct of Vegas, which to be fair few teams in the league do

Seattle "did nothing" because teams weren't going to make the same mistakes again. The best moves Vegas made were dumb trades teams made to either clear cap space or protect players. Even if some players took big jumps with Vegas, they got a lot of talent day one and were able to accrue lots of picks and young guys with high upside.

Teams realized they overpaid and both planned for the draft better and weren't willing to offer the same value. They were more willing to trade with other teams to manage their protection lists or just lose one guy than make a move.

 

[chethejet]

I have thought for years hockey can work in the SLC area. that works for all involved and now the question is how to do it. Maybe Atlanta can be a place Hockey returns as they have the population base to support it. Owners with 32 teams even at a franchise fee of 1 billion just is 30 million per team which is fine. But hard to justify that with revenue not growing as much as other sports. The goal is stable franchises vs markets that never made sense.

 

[Heldig]

I've heard this transaction might be given an outward appearance of the Browns/Ravens "move" - i.e. Utah gets an "expansion team" but absorbs the Coyotes organization while the Arizona Coyotes "suspend operations" and go into hiatus but do not fold outright, and return later via expansion draft once they sort out the arena issue.

Which begs the question - why would Smith even want the Coyotes organization? With the Browns/Ravens organization there was ownership continuity, which isn't the case here. Moreover, taking on the Coyotes means taking on contracts Arizona absorbed to technically get to the floor, but will be problematic for Smith assuming he plans to try and build a contender in the short term.

The Coyotes are FAIAP on a twelve year playoff drought, the asterisked playoff appearance of 2020 notwithstanding. Whereas Vegas has missed the playoffs once in seven years and are defending champs, and whereas Seattle made the playoffs and dethroned the defending champs in their second year. If you're being asked to pay 300M premium on top of 1B to join this league, on what terms would you want to join? Not a hard call IMHO.

A Coyotes dispersal draft would also presumably suit most of the players just fine. They're moving in any case. And let's face it, SLC is not Funville USA. Alot of players without NTCs would prefer to head almost anywhere else. And if Schmaltz and Kerfoot can decline to play for ten teams each, why should they be forced to play in Utah if they don't want to?

Finally, this eliminates any perception that the Coyotes have "moved" - all things considered, it seems a logical way to resolve this matter.

The Coyotes are a very young team with several very good, young talent on the roster and a pipeline chalk full of top prospects and a boatload of draft picks.

Keller is an elite winger.

Top young players include Cooley, Guenther, Maccelli and Moser.

Other legit NHLers include Crouse, Schmaltz, McBain, Durzi and 2 youngish, cheap goalies (Ingram is very good).

Only bad contract to make the floor as you opine, is Shea Weber and that ends next season. They owe OEL cap $ but it is not that much.

The assertion that players can use a NMC/NTC to not relocate is highly likely a non-issue.

 

[viper0220]

Meruelo is a con artist using the fact that the league has been desperate to stay in Arizona against them, along with the insistence of not having their franchise values look bad.

They only have had con artists in Arizona whenever it concerns the NHL, hopefully the team is moved now and in the future an expansion team is awarded to Arizona under good ownership.

 

[viper0220]

The Coyotes are a very young team with several very good, young talent on the roster and a pipeline chalk full of top prospects and a boatload of draft picks.

Keller is an elite winger.

Top young players include Cooley, Guenther, Maccelli and Moser.

Other legit NHLers include Crouse, Schmaltz, McBain, Durzi and 2 youngish, cheap goalies (Ingram is very good).

Only bad contract to make the floor as you opine, is Shea Weber and that ends next season. They owe OEL cap $ but it is not that much.

The assertion that players can use a NMC/NTC to not relocate is highly likely a non-issue.

Very true, if they move the team to Utah and good competent management is put in place, they can turn this team around in 2-3 years.

 

[rojac]

There are complaints from players, not just from the Yotes but around the league.

Some have no trade clauses that have AZ as a place to get traded to , but obviously won’t have SLC and are concerned .. per Gord Miller

I'm not sure I've seen any actual complaints from players. I have seen one tweet from, I think, Darren Dreger that an agent mentioned this issue to him. But I can't recall at the moment if the issue was presented as "I have clients with this issue" or a more hypothetical "there could be players with this issue.".

But, in any event, it could be an issue with some players who have no-trade lists. Similarly, there may be players that have Arizona on their no-trade list who would be perfectly willing to go to SLC or are simply wondering if SLC will automatically replace Arizona on their list.

I think M-NTCs with no-trade lists were't really around yet when the Thrashers moved to Winnipeg, so this is really a new issue. Not to mention that it seems not all no-trade lists work the same way. Some need to be annually on a given date while I've heard of others that simply require the player need to present their list within 48 hours of being asked for it.

That being said, the issue is out there and I'm sure that Walsh and Bettman will meet on this issue and possibly work out a side deal where players with an active no-trade list can modify it when a franchise mves.

Do any old-timers who were around for the Thrashers' move to Winnipeg 13 years ago remember if there were many complaints from players? Because if you think about it, there had to be players who didn't like the idea of moving from Atlanta to Winnipeg.

This time around, we seem to be hearing a lot more about how this affects the players, both from the players themselves and from others.

i think it's possible that this is a concerted effort by Marty Walsh and the NHLPA to bring these issues to the forefront to show things like relocation and expansion affect the players with the end goal of getting some or all of expansion and relocation fees included in HRR.

 

[joestevens29]

Seattle "did nothing" because teams weren't going to make the same mistakes again. The best moves Vegas made were dumb trades teams made to either clear cap space or protect players. Even if some players took big jumps with Vegas, they got a lot of talent day one and were able to accrue lots of picks and young guys with high upside.

Teams realized they overpaid and both planned for the draft better and weren't willing to offer the same value. They were more willing to trade with other teams to manage their protection lists or just lose one guy than make a move.

Francis also said he had offers to take on bad contracts that would've resulted in assets, but thought it would be better saved for the trade deadline when teams are desperate.

He didn't use it then either.

 

[VivaLasVegas]

Meruelo is a con artist using the fact that the league has been desperate to stay in Arizona against them, along with the insistence of not having their franchise values look bad.

I've personally known Alex Meruelo for going on 25 years and he's nothing like a scam artist. He does tend to get financially overextended and gets tunnel vision for one project to the disadvantage of others, and sometimes let hope take the place of reality, but that is not uncommon among wheeler-dealer businessmen like him. Meruelo has had legitimate success, and sometimes amazing success, with a wide variety of very different businesses, from his early Pizza Loco shops to fiber optics, etc. IMHO, the League's problems have been of their own making and they could have cut off this fiasco long ago had not they too let hope take the place of reality.

 

[GKJ]

I've personally known Alex Meruelo for going on 25 years and he's nothing like a scam artist. He does tend to get financially overextended and gets tunnel vision for one project to the disadvantage of others, and sometimes let hope take the place of reality, but that is not uncommon among wheeler-dealer businessmen like him. Meruelo has had legitimate success, and sometimes amazing success, with a wide variety of very different businesses, from his early Pizza Loco shops to fiber optics, etc. IMHO, the League's problems have been of their own making and they could have cut off this fiasco long ago had not they too let hope take the place of reality.

Sounds like I’m not the one you need to convince, instead it’s all his employees that he’s refused to be up front with. Maybe you can put a call in if he’s cognizant or has any care about his personal reputation

 

[VivaLasVegas]

Sounds like I’m not the one you need to convince, instead it’s all his employees that he’s refused to be up front with. Maybe you can put a call in if he’s cognizant or has any care about his personal reputation

It might make him a bad employer, but still doesn't rise to the level of a "scam artist". If those employees have a legally-cognizable claim against him, they should sue and then we can see how that shakes out.

 

[GKJ]

It might make him a bad employer, but still doesn't rise to the level of a "scam artist". If those employees have a legally-cognizable claim against him, they should sue and then we can see how that shakes out.

If he’s not trying to solve the situation he was entrusted with in good faith, but opts to take advantage and use that against the league, then yes it does. Doesn’t have to be a legal angle to that.

 

[robertocarlos]

Why can't they beg to go back to Glendale?

 

[Summer Rose]

Why can't they beg to go back to Glendale?

That bridge could not be any more burned.

 

[Edenjung]

That bridge could not be any more burned.

And the NHL and Gary played a huge role in burning it down.

 

[StreetHawk]

And the NHL and Gary played a huge role in burning it down.

Really, for a market the size of Arizona, there should be no need for gov funding for an indoor arena. Larger markets like chicago, Houston, LA, Boston, even to Phi and such you really can't get into a larger market than they are at.

I get that smaller markets like OKC, NO, Memphis, and others will have the gun put to their head as there are other markets that can be as lucrative or better than them, thus the gov. ends up giving into the team's demands.

 

[Amorgus]

Seattle had a 100 point season and made it to Game 7 of the 2nd round in its 2nd season, not exactly an example of a failed regime. What Vegas did was unprecedented sprinkled with some serious luck to start out so it's not a fair comparison.

I'm just glad to see Dave Hakstol is failing with another team. 2nd round is all he could get from the Flyers too because the dude loved activating the Hakshell as soon as they got ahead by 1.

 

[Some Other Flame]

That's pretty embarrassing

 

[GKJ]