Per Friedman: Coyotes players told team moving to Utah starting next season (Mod warning post #50)

[LOFIN]

Atlanta came crashing down because of ownership not wanting them. Has nothing to do with the fans, which was better than what Winnipeg is pulling.

Sure, I don't see how that's relevant to my post. I wasn't arguing about that.

It's obvious the NHL wants another crack at Atlanta, but at that time they had to get out. And Winnipeg was ready on a short notice. Just like SLC is now ready on a short notice, and the NHL still wants to try the Arizona market in the future.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Idk I just have no clue how anyone can say any major city couldn't make a NHL team work after how well Vegas has worked. No one thought that Vegas having a hockey team would be successful, most people thought it would just be a tourist destination overrun with away fans. But Vegas has a major fanbase now and is a great example of how a team can succeed in a non-conventional city.

With Salt Lake City, it's famous for winter sports and skiing. It hosted the Winter Olympics in 2002 and is likely going to host it again in 2034. There really aren't many potential expansion cities that fit the idea of a "hockey town" better than Salt Lake City.

Salt Lake City isn't Denver but it's closer to Denver than anything else. I don't hear anyone questioning the viability of Denver supporting a hockey team.

 

[sigx15]

It's wild it ever got to this point. Shoutout to Seravalli for breaking this whole thing open. He's taken a ton of shit for his reporting on this because some Coyotes fans are taking the idea of the team leaving so personal which I totally get but it's been really solid so far

 

[93LEAFS]

Idk I just have no clue how anyone can say any major city couldn't make a NHL team work after how well Vegas has worked. No one thought that Vegas having a hockey team would be successful, most people thought it would just be a tourist destination overrun with away fans. But Vegas has a major fanbase now and is a great example of how a team can succeed in a non-conventional city.

With Salt Lake City, it's famous for winter sports and skiing. It hosted the Winter Olympics in 2002 and is likely going to host it again in 2034. There really aren't many potential expansion cities that fit the idea of a "hockey town" better than Salt Lake City.

Salt Lake City isn't Denver but it's closer to Denver than anything else. I don't hear anyone questioning the viability of Denver supporting a hockey team.

Denver is significantly bigger. SLC will be interesting as it will be byfar the smallest market to have both an NBA and NHL team. Not saying it can't succeed, but generally markets that are any smaller than Denver have had trouble supporting both. Sort of why the NHL isn't in some markets that might make sense but they don't want to go head to head against the NBA (Milwaukee, Indianapolis, Cleveland, etc).

 

[Empoleon8771]

Denver is significantly bigger. SLC will be interesting as it will be byfar the smallest market to have both an NBA and NHL team. Not saying it can't succeed, but generally markets that are any smaller than Denver have had trouble supporting both. Sort of why the NHL isn't in some markets that might make sense but they don't want to go head to head against the NBA (Milwaukee, Indianapolis, Cleveland, etc).

From the last page, there are 2.7 million people living in the SLC "market," as defined by the NHL's territory definition. Denver is at 3.6 million. It's not a huge difference.

 

[Tawnos]

From the last page, there are 2.7 million people living in the SLC "market," as defined by the NHL's territory definition. Denver is at 3.6 million. It's not a huge difference.

4.2 million in Denver under the same definition, so a bit more than 50% larger in population.

 

[93LEAFS]

From the last page, there are 2.7 million people living in the SLC "market," as defined by the NHL's territory definition. Denver is at 3.6 million. It's not a huge difference.

I'd say that's sizable. 900K would be 25% of Denver's population. Add in that most of Denver's CSA lives inside their MSA. Denver's MSA has about 1.8m more people.

 

[Hostile Offer]

some questions.

If the team does move to Utah:

1.) Can Utah support an NHL team?

2.) Does the owner have an arena that is suitable for an NHL team?

3.) Does the owner have a plan for an arena plan for the future. once they need an replacement?

4.) Can Utah support the team long term?

I feel the answer must be yes to all these questions for the consideration to be this far. SLC is certainly a valid option right now in case Phoenix doesn't work out this summer.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'd say that's sizable. 900K would be 25% of Denver's population. Add in that most of Denver's CSA lives inside their MSA. Denver's MSA has about 1.8m more people.

Denver also has the Broncos and Rockies, though. Including the MLS, Salt Lake City would have 3 major sports teams compared to 5 for Denver.

Idk, I don't think a NBA, NHL and MLS team in Salt Lake City would be too much. I don't think they should also be trying to add a MLB team, but I think three could be supported.

 

[Tawnos]

I'd say that's sizable. 900K would be 25% of Denver's population. Add in that most of Denver's CSA lives inside their MSA. Denver's MSA has about 1.8m more people.

SLC is a case where using MSA is super misleading. Provo and Odgen are considered separate MSAs, even though other similarly sized cities are often roped into the larger MSA near by. I'm sure the Census Bureau has its reasons. That's why I decided to look at what's within the NHL's territory definition. Even though cities are different sizes in terms of actual area, it was at least something the NHL looks at too.

Denver also has the Broncos and Rockies, though. Including the MLS, Salt Lake City would have 3 major sports teams compared to 5 for Denver.

Idk, I don't think a NBA, NHL and MLS team in Salt Lake City would be too much. I don't think they should also be trying to add a MLB team, but I think three could be supported.

The real issue is the season overlap. You're double dipping on available dollars with NHL and NBA in a way that you don't with MLB (different time of year) and NFL (less than 10 weeks, and only once in any individual week). This is going to be an interesting experience to watch. I've said before that NHL and NBA might work in a smaller city than Denver if there were some x factor. Vegas is going to be fine because they have the x factor of being an entertainment oriented city to begin with. SLC might have an x factor with their love of winter sports. I don't think it's guaranteed that this will work, but there's reasons to believe it will for sure.

 

[Aaaarrgghh]

If the move to Utah happens, I feel really bad for Arizona fans. However badly run it has been on the management level, on the sporting level they are really well-positioned. A potential Utah team will be able to make significant improvements in the off-season, due to their cap space and draft capital. They have a lot of assets to build a strong team around, which will be a good base on which to develop a fan base around in Utah.

 

[93LEAFS]

Denver also has the Broncos and Rockies, though. Including the MLS, Salt Lake City would have 3 major sports teams compared to 5 for Denver.

Idk, I don't think a NBA, NHL and MLS team in Salt Lake City would be too much. I don't think they should also be trying to add a MLB team, but I think three could be supported.

NBA and NHL go directly against each other at the same time of the year. It's why a ton of markets have 3 of the big 4, and the one missing is either the NHL or NBA. Look at Pitt, Cleveland, Seattle, Tampa, etc.

 

[Dicky113]

Thank god it’s over finally.
Salt Lake City is a dumb place to move to but at least the phoenix experiment is finally over. I feel like when I explain to my grandkids that an nhl team once played out of a college arena they won’t even believe me

 

[Tawnos]

NBA and NHL go directly against each other at the same time of the year. It's why a ton of markets have 3 of the big 4, and the one missing is either the NHL or NBA. Look at Pitt, Cleveland, Seattle, Tampa, etc.

I always find it interesting how some of those situations have the other sport in a city not that far away.

Raleigh has the Hurricanes and Charlotte has the Hornets
Tampa has the Lightning and Orlando has the Magic
Columbus has the Blue Jackets and Cleveland has the Cavaliers
Nashville has the Predators and Memphis has the Grizzlies

 

[Junohockeyfan]

Reading the seedy financial details of the Coyotes woes, they should be booking their players into the Motel 6 and making them share rooms. In the name of team bonding.

 

[Poppy Whoa Sonnet]

I always find it interesting how some of those situations have the other sport in a city not that far away.

Raleigh has the Hurricanes and Charlotte has the Hornets
Tampa has the Lightning and Orlando has the Magic
Columbus has the Blue Jackets and Cleveland has the Cavaliers
Nashville has the Predators and Memphis has the Grizzlies

Those cities are not that close by car. e.g. Nashville to Memphis is a 3 hour drive

 

[Tawnos]

Those cities are not that close by car. e.g. Nashville to Memphis is a 3 hour drive

I'm sorry, but what? Those are cities that are close to each other. A 3 hour drive from one large city to another isn't much at all. It's a day trip for a lot of people. My sister regularly drives from Charlotte to Raleigh and back in a single day for work. Not as a commute. She just has business in Raleigh once every couple of weeks.

 

[93LEAFS]

I always find it interesting how some of those situations have the other sport in a city not that far away.

Raleigh has the Hurricanes and Charlotte has the Hornets
Tampa has the Lightning and Orlando has the Magic
Columbus has the Blue Jackets and Cleveland has the Cavaliers
Nashville has the Predators and Memphis has the Grizzlies

I'm pretty sure Cleveland is closer to Pitt than Columbus. Seattle/Portland sort of fit this now, they are closer than Nashville/Memphis, but you see to zero in on cities in the same state. Seattle/Vancouver fit this before the Sonic's moved (pre-Grizzlies and post-Grizzlies).

 

[Tawnos]

I'm pretty sure Cleveland is closer to Pitt than Columbus. Seattle/Portland sort of fit this now, they are closer than Nashville/Memphis, but you see to zero in on cities in the same state. Seattle/Vancouver fit this before the Sonic's moved (pre-Grizzlies and post-Grizzlies).

Fine, Columbus and Indianapolis then!

Seattle is a little different because they really should have both, and will again at some point.

 

[Lt Dan]

If the move to Utah happens, I feel really bad for Arizona fans. However badly run it has been on the management level, on the sporting level they are really well-positioned. A potential Utah team will be able to make significant improvements in the off-season, due to their cap space and draft capital. They have a lot of assets to build a strong team around, which will be a good base on which to develop a fan base around in Utah.

It won't quite be Avalanche year 1, but it'll be a very well positioned team with a STRONG farm

 

[Poppy Whoa Sonnet]

I'm sorry, but what? Those are cities that are close to each other. A 3 hour drive from one large city to another isn't much at all. It's a day trip for a lot of people. My sister regularly drives from Charlotte to Raleigh and back in a single day for work. Not as a commute. She just has business in Raleigh once every couple of weeks.

If you were a season ticket holder going 3 hours for a game is probably too far, if you are a corporate ticket holder you aren't going to use an arena 3 hours away to entertain. Maybe I'm just used to the density of the northeast corridor of the US but they seem pretty distinct markets to me at the ticket purchase level. Maybe the same TV markets.

 

[93LEAFS]

If you were a season ticket holder going 3 hours for a game is probably too far, if you are a corporate ticket holder you aren't going to use an arena 3 hours away to entertain. Maybe I'm just used to the density of the northeast corridor of the US but they seem pretty distinct markets to me at the ticket purchase level. Maybe the same TV markets.

Outside the rare exception, I agree. Going to Buffalo for something for me is a one-off event I might do once a year for either a Leafs/Sabres game or a Bills game. In no way are people in Buffalo or Toronto season ticket holders for any of the Raptors/Jays/Leafs/Sabres. The Bills are an exception as they play primarily on weekends and only 8 times a year, so the occasional Bills season ticket holder can be found in the GTA.

I guess it also depends on traffic too, some of these regions are less dense, which makes car travel more smooth. In the NYC area traffic is nuts, just as it's pretty nuts here. New York to Philly aren't particularly far apart, but I would assume a hellacious drive during the week.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I'm not suggesting this will happen. I just think it's a better solution (i.e. a straight-up DD followed by a separate ED, not a '92-like hybrid) than moving the Coyotes organization.

It's not, but ... OK.

For Arizona fans, it spares them the pain of 90's Browns fans et. al. in seeing anything resembling "their team" play in another city,

I don't think this is remotely like the Cleveland Browns getting moved to Baltimore, but ... OK.

Besides, ultimately, if and when the Coyotes are resurrected, it'll be with an expansion draft.

This is true, but it still doesn't explain why the current franchise needs to be ripped to shreds with a dispersal draft only to be rebuilt with what would effectively be an expansion draft, sans all the prospects - good, bad, indifferent - that were in the system to begin with. It's solving a non-problem with a non-solution.

You must be an accountant.

Actuary. Even better.

@Bear of Bad News will second that.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Idk I just have no clue how anyone can say any major city couldn't make a NHL team work after how well Vegas has worked. No one thought that Vegas having a hockey team would be successful, most people thought it would just be a tourist destination overrun with away fans. But Vegas has a major fanbase now and is a great example of how a team can succeed in a non-conventional city.

Those same people are lined up eagerly waiting for Vegas to not be good so they can crap all over the city, SEE I TOLD YOU, THEY'LL ONLY SHOW UP TO SUPPORT A WINNER, NO ONE CARES OTHERWISE.

 

[Turin]

Really giving me Atlanta to Winnipeg vibes in terms of the timeline and messaging. Good as gone.