Penticton and Chilliwack to the WHL

[DoyleG]

Agree on the BCHL schadenfreude thing... they couldn't have picked a shittier time to do what they did.

Except that one of the biggest boosters of the BCHL going indy is getting into the WHL.

 

[jetsmooseice]

Except that one of the biggest boosters of the BCHL going indy is getting into the WHL.

So they made a big mess and left it for the others to clean up as they bugger off to the dub? Yikes.

 

[TheCrease]

I think the BCHL will be fine. Penticton and Chilliwack are bigger than the BCHL needs to be and the CHL is now the top dog in juniors.

The BCHL has been pretty clear about their goals. The want to compete with the USHL, and recruit from all over North America. They will still be that, and will also get the disgruntled WHL guys that need playing time.

 

[Mototik]

I think the BCHL will be fine. Penticton and Chilliwack are bigger than the BCHL needs to be and the CHL is now the top dog in juniors.

The BCHL has been pretty clear about their goals. The want to compete with the USHL, and recruit from all over North America. They will still be that, and will also get the disgruntled WHL guys that need playing time.

The BCHL wants to compete with the USHL but now they have to compete with the CHL as well. The one benefit the BCHL does have is not having a draft.

However, it will be interesting to see how the future CHL drafts go now that the threat of going NCAA isn't as strong anymore.

 

[hockeykid87]

Curious to hear more about this. I'm really not sure how much "bigger" the CHL can grow. There aren't many more cities with facilities capable of hosting CHL teams I don't think.

 

[Juniorhockeyguru]

Central Division

Lethbridge Hurricanes
Edmonton Oil Kings
Calgary Hitmen
Okotoks Oilers
Sherwood Park Crusaders
Medicine Hat Tigers
Red Deer Rebels
Cranbrook Bucks

East Division

Brandon Wheat Kings
Swift Current Broncos
Prince Albert Raiders
Saskatoon Blades
Moose Jaw Warriors
Regina Pats
Estevan Bruins


BC Division

Kamloops Blazers
Kelowna Rockets
Vancouver Giants
Prince George Cougars
Victoria Royals
Penticton Vees
Chilliwack Chiefs
Nanaimo Clippers


US Division

Portland Winterhawks
Everett Silvertips
Spokane Chiefs
Wenatchee Wild
Seattle Thunderbirds
Tri-City Americans

 

[hockeykid87]

Sherwood Park and Okotoks don't have big enough arenas for the WHL. You're not going to get anything smaller than Swift Current. Prince Albert is building their new rink now, and it's going to be 4,500 capacity.

Nanaimo would need a totally new building to get a WHL team. They tried that in 2017 with a public vote and it was a resounding, 80% no. As much as the WHL would love to have a team there, and I'm sure the Royals would too, I don't think that's ever happening.

Estevan has a nice enough rink, but do they have the fan and sponsor support for a WHL team? HockeyDB says they're averaging 975 fans a game this season. You would think that would go up for significantly better hockey, but to be even close to sustainable you'd have to nearly triple it.

I really think Penticton and Chilliwack might be the only two cities in Western Canada that could support a WHL team in the near future.

 

[MeHateHe]

Nanaimo would need a totally new building to get a WHL team. They tried that in 2017 with a public vote and it was a resounding, 80% no. As much as the WHL would love to have a team there, and I'm sure the Royals would too, I don't think that's ever happening.

The best chance for Nanaimo is if the league bends now (seeing this as chance to drive a knife into the BCHL's heart once and for all) and allows them to come in and get established, while they bring forward a plan to get private capital to build a facility more in keeping with the league's needs. So, sort of like what happened in WInnipeg. It's risky - look how Winnipeg turned out - but unlike Winnipeg, there is a real need for a multi-purpose events centre of that size in the mid-Island. It's a long shot, but I could see an argument for it (I say go for it, because it's not my money!)

As for the rest of that post: hard pass. Cranbrook? Not again. If you're going to the Kootenays, it would make more sense to go to Trail, because you could market it to the entire west Kootenay region, but it's still a terrible bet. Sherwood Park and Okotoks? Sherwood Park drew 451 for a recent game and neither of those rinks are big enough.

A 29 team WHL? At some point it collapses under its own weight.

 

[tank44]

My parents live in Nanaimo and wanted the arena but voted NO because of some other side elements to the vote. In the end I think the cost was "only $80M" which is much more now.

WHL could get to be big enough and split to a Western WHL (MB, SK, AB) and Pacific PHL (BC, US) with 12-16 teams each. The WHL could return to Winnipeg, and expand to FortMac, GrandPrairie, Llyodminster and even perhaps to Northern Ontario Thunder Bay & Kenora. The PHL could expand after Penticton & Chilliwack to Nanaimo, Cranbrook, Trail, city of Vancouver BC, Vancouver WA, Eugene OR, Boise ID, Missoula MT, Couer DAlene ID, Yakima WA, Bellingham WA.

 

[hockeykid87]

My parents live in Nanaimo and wanted the arena but voted NO because of some other side elements to the vote. In the end I think the cost was "only $80M" which is much more now.

WHL could get to be big enough and split to a Western WHL (MB, SK, AB) and Pacific PHL (BC, US) with 12-16 teams each. The WHL could return to Winnipeg, and expand to FortMac, GrandPrairie, Llyodminster and even perhaps to Northern Ontario Thunder Bay & Kenora. The PHL could expand after Penticton & Chilliwack to Nanaimo, Cranbrook, Trail, city of Vancouver BC, Vancouver WA, Eugene OR, Boise ID, Missoula MT, Couer DAlene ID, Yakima WA, Bellingham WA.

Are you insane haha.

 

[MeHateHe]

Are you insane haha.

Well, the list of possible franchise locations is pretty out there, but given that the NHL has been in discussions with the CHL about what the junior hockey landscape looks like, it's not inconceivable that the league adds a few teams and then splits. It's well-established that the league would prefer a second team on Vancouver Island and a second team in Manitoba makes eminent sense (Winnipeg 3.0? if they can get their act together on a rink), so that takes the league up to 26. Leagues of that size become pretty unwieldly, especially when it comes to playoffs, so it's not completely out of the realm of possible.

 

[Mototik]

Yeah... I think people need to pump the brakes a bit on WHL expansion because I think the league is pretty much at its limit.

I'll grant Penticton and Chilliwack because those wheels appear to already be in motion and they do seem like viable markets but I'll take a bold stance and say that none of the existing BCHL, AJ, SJ and MJ markets are capable of moving up to the major junior level without, at the very minimum, a massive financial influx and/or new arenas, and that would be a very tall order. Then any other markets that don't currently have any hockey (like that PHL idea a few posts above...), do they have any interest in junior hockey and the facilities for it? Plus, you would also have to consider the travel because there's no way a split league thing happens.

On top of that, you also have to consider, even with the perceived bigger pool of players who want to go NCAA, are there even enough quality junior hockey players to fill out a bunch of new teams? I'm not too sure about that.

I don't think the WHL would turn down a meeting if some rich people want to lose a bunch of money in starting a new team from the ground up, including building an arena in most cases, but I just don't see there being many cases coming.

 

[MeHateHe]

Yeah... I think people need to pump the brakes a bit on WHL expansion because I think the league is pretty much at its limit.

I'll grant Penticton and Chilliwack because those wheels appear to already be in motion and they do seem like viable markets but I'll take a bold stance and say that none of the existing BCHL, AJ, SJ and MJ markets are capable of moving up to the major junior level without, at the very minimum, a massive financial influx and/or new arenas, and that would be a very tall order. Then any other markets that don't currently have any hockey (like that PHL idea a few posts above...), do they have any interest in junior hockey and the facilities for it? Plus, you would also have to consider the travel because there's no way a split league thing happens.

On top of that, you also have to consider, even with the perceived bigger pool of players who want to go NCAA, are there even enough quality junior hockey players to fill out a bunch of new teams? I'm not too sure about that.

I don't think the WHL would turn down a meeting if some rich people want to lose a bunch of money in starting a new team from the ground up, including building an arena in most cases, but I just don't see there being many cases coming.

Agreed on all of this. I think 24 is too many. However, I suspect the league is meeting the moment a bit, seeing a chance to rip out a couple of very successful BCHL franchises and plant its flag firmly in BC. An 8-team BC division is not ideal, but if they're doing that, I don't see the downside to a 9-team division by adding Nanaimo (caveats above) to support Victoria. I suppose it's possible they add either Vancouver or Chilliwack to the US division to keep the western conference even, but cross-border travel is an additional challenge and would be a problem from the standpoint of competitive fairness, IMO.

 

[wetcoast]

So... I think we're going to be seeing a lot of this. But what makes this a tad bit more interesting is I wonder what it'll mean for Junior A.

What I think is going to happen, is the WHL will be divided into two or three leagues.

I think this could happen as well with Chillwack and Nanamio being on the expansion radar.

 

[wetcoast]

Kelowna Rockets
Kamloops Blazers
Vancouver Giants
Victoria Royals
Prince George Cougars
Penticton Vees
Chilliwack Chiefs

Add Nanamio in there for the future.

 

[jetsmooseice]

and a second team in Manitoba makes eminent sense (Winnipeg 3.0? if they can get their act together on a rink), so that takes the league up to 26.

No one is building a rink in Winnipeg. No one feels any need to build a rink in Winnipeg. No government is going to help a new arena project. The two guys who were actually trying to get it done with their own money had their efforts rewarded by having their franchise revoked, so now there is no one left.

The only options for the WHL in Winnipeg are to get TNSE on side (which will only happen if the Moose are moved to another city first), or to accept a souped-up Wayne Fleming Arena. Or if you really want to go crazy, the WHL could give it a shot 60 km outside of city limits in Steinbach.

 

[MeHateHe]

The only options for the WHL in Winnipeg are to get TNSE on side (which will only happen if the Moose are moved to another city first), or to accept a souped-up Wayne Fleming Arena. Or if you really want to go crazy, the WHL could give it a shot 60 km outside of city limits in Steinbach.

Yeah, which is why I specified a second team for Manitoba rather than Winnipeg 3.0. I don't know Manitoba geography well enough to say where that might be. Are there enough Mennonite hockey fans in Selkirk to make it work? Could they do something in Portage?

 

[jetsmooseice]

Yeah, which is why I specified a second team for Manitoba rather than Winnipeg 3.0. I don't know Manitoba geography well enough to say where that might be. Are there enough Mennonite hockey fans in Selkirk to make it work? Could they do something in Portage?

Selkirk's arena (2,751 seats) might have barely met WHL standards when it was opened in 1992 but not anymore. It's squarely a Jr. A rink by today's standards. If it can be salvaged, it would need a ton of renovations and improvements for the WHL, and I'm not sure the City of Selkirk would be willing and able to take that on. Especially when we see how capriciously the league can act with regard to franchises.

Portage's rink is more modern but is smaller than Selkirk's. It has 1,975 seats and maybe you could cram in a couple hundred more without taking on expensive structural alterations. Not much bigger than Wayne Fleming Arena, really.

In both cases though you have longstanding MJHL franchises that would not take kindly to being displaced. And the distance is far enough that depending on Winnipeg's support would not be a sure thing... the highway drives can be treacherous in the winter.

Steinbach's new arena opens this month. It will have 2,500 seats plus a generous (for Jr. A) amount of premium seating. This might be the most viable ready-built solution for the WHL. But again, there is a well supported MJHL team that I don't think is just going to allow a WHL team to walk in, unless maybe it's a Wenatchee-like scenario where the existing team and ownership get "promoted" to the dub. But even then both town and rink are on the small side, as much as Steinbach feels like a booming town, it still only has about one or two thousand people more than Swift Current. And Steinbach's rink isn't as big as the iPlex in Swift. So it would be a struggle.

I don't really see any other viable locations in Manitoba.

 

[hockeykid87]

This Penticton stuff is moving along. Sounds like they're hoping to hold the expansion draft in early May, before the WHL Draft. Not sure about the number of players that teams will be allowed to protect, but I do believe 2009-born players are exempt.

 

[hockeykid87]

Chilliwack Chiefs relinquishing control of their arena. A clear sign the WHL will be there in short order.

 

[MeHateHe]

Chilliwack Chiefs relinquishing control of their arena. A clear sign the WHL will be there in short order.

I’m trying to sort this out. The release includes a reference to capital improvements in the rink. I suspect the Chiefs don’t want to be on the hook for those, so they’ve ceded control of the rink 4 years early to leave the city to do that work. But there isn’t another suitable rink in Chilliwack for them to play in, so one would expect that if the WHL is coming, it will be the Chiefs group who operates in the WHL, and giving up the operation of the rink will limit their revenue streams, surely. Unless the Chiefs are cash-poor or can’t get financing to do the capital improvements, giving up the rink is going to hamstring them moving forward.

 

[hockeykid87]

I’m trying to sort this out. The release includes a reference to capital improvements in the rink. I suspect the Chiefs don’t want to be on the hook for those, so they’ve ceded control of the rink 4 years early to leave the city to do that work. But there isn’t another suitable rink in Chilliwack for them to play in, so one would expect that if the WHL is coming, it will be the Chiefs group who operates in the WHL, and giving up the operation of the rink will limit their revenue streams, surely. Unless the Chiefs are cash-poor or can’t get financing to do the capital improvements, giving up the rink is going to hamstring them moving forward.

There was a lot of rumors surrounding Francesco Aquilini buying the Chiefs and the rink a few years ago. Perhaps he buys the team and not the rink? Not sure how much money he'd want to put into it, but it's not unheard of. Dallas Stars owner Tom Gaglardi also owns the Kamloops Blazers.

 

[hockeykid87]

Sounds like an official announcement coming Monday about Penticton.

 

[DudeWhereIsMakar]

Central Division

Lethbridge Hurricanes
Edmonton Oil Kings
Calgary Hitmen
Okotoks Oilers
Sherwood Park Crusaders
Medicine Hat Tigers
Red Deer Rebels
Cranbrook Bucks

East Division

Brandon Wheat Kings
Swift Current Broncos
Prince Albert Raiders
Saskatoon Blades
Moose Jaw Warriors
Regina Pats
Estevan Bruins


BC Division

Kamloops Blazers
Kelowna Rockets
Vancouver Giants
Prince George Cougars
Victoria Royals
Penticton Vees
Chilliwack Chiefs
Nanaimo Clippers


US Division

Portland Winterhawks
Everett Silvertips
Spokane Chiefs
Wenatchee Wild
Seattle Thunderbirds
Tri-City Americans

If this happened the WHL would split into two leagues. Also, they may add Steinbach, Winnipeg, Winkler and Selkirk to some of those Manitoba Teams.