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Salary Cap: Pens Summer Salary Thread: We Hayes Dubas's offseason moves so far

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SomeDude said:
If Dubas is smart, and he’s not, it will be saved until the deadline to broker deals with retention for picks or take on other Kevin Hayes for assets.

In reality we’re going to give it to Zach Parise or some ****.
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That's the conundrum with keeping Sid happy vs going for a faster rebuild.

Besides, you don't get Kevin Hayes deals at the deadline, as it's negligible at that point. It's the other way around, where a Zach Parise (Perry/Maroon/etc) becomes worth a deadline trade pick for filling in some role for the playoffs.
 
Sidgeni Malkby said:
That's the conundrum with keeping Sid happy vs going for a faster rebuild.

Besides, you don't get Kevin Hayes deals at the deadline, as it's negligible at that point. It's the other way around, where a Zach Parise (Perry/Maroon/etc) becomes worth a deadline trade pick for filling in some role for the playoffs.
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There are definetly instances where teams need to move salary or a contract to add a piece and the other team doesn’t want or can’t take it back in their deal. It’s not as prominent as during the summer but you can get decent players for under market value or straight up cap dumps for assets at the deadline if you have the cap space. Especially if you’re willing to take on someone with over a year left on a deal.

That is where we should be at this point regardless of what Sid wants.
 
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Save percentage isn’t everything. In the playoffs you need your goalie to make big saves when your team needs them. Like 09 against the Caps I don’t really care what MAFs save percentage was. It was a high scoring series and he made a huge momentum swinging save a minute into game 7.

Now check him out 30 seconds into game 7 against Montreal

 
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SomeDude said:
There are definetly instances where teams need to move salary or a contract to add a piece and the other team doesn’t want or can’t take it back in their deal. It’s not as prominent as during the summer but you can get decent players for under market value or straight up cap dumps for assets at the deadline if you have the cap space. Especially if you’re willing to take on someone with over a year left on a deal.

That is where we should be at this point regardless of what Sid wants.
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We should also be looking to give younger assets the role when we send someone out in return for assets. Just like Jake out last year, DOC gets the nod to go on the top line.

I think the only person this year is Pettersson. Send him out at the TDL, get a 1st back, promote any of Graves, Gryz, Ludvig, Shea, JSI, etc. You're not likely getting a 1:1 performance replacement but as we saw with DOC, you're likely getting "good enough".

THAT is where comfort with our current position should be. "We have to keep Pettersson because Sid..." shouldn't even really be a rational thought. This all assuming we are out by the TDL, which who knows - Jarry could go on LTIR, you bring in Blomqvist and Murashov and they post .950sv%s and Yager becomes the next Pastrnak next to Sid...and suddenly, you're in the running for the President's Trophy.
 
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K Fleur said:
Save percentage isn’t everything. In the playoffs you need your goalie to make big saves when your team needs them. Like 09 against the Caps I don’t really care what MAFs save percentage was. It was a high scoring series and he made a huge momentum swinging save a minute into game 7.

Now check him out 30 seconds into game 7 against Montreal

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Given the 2010, 2012, 2013, and 2014 playoffs, it always infuriates me when people question why we kept Murray over Fleury.

Glad he found some good games later in his career which will whitewash his putrid playoff performances in his mid-career. Average goaltending gets you past the Canadians, Flyers, and Rangers. Boston who knows.
 
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SEALBound said:
Given the 2010, 2012, 2013, and 2014 playoffs, it always infuriates me when people question why we kept Murray over Fleury.

Glad he found some good games later in his career which will whitewash his putrid playoff performances in his mid-career. Average goaltending gets you past the Canadians, Flyers, and Rangers. Boston who knows.
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Personally, I think the whole thing highlights the value of a solid goalie coach.
 
BigEezyE22 said:
Personally, I think the whole thing highlights the value of a solid goalie coach.
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And a good defensive structure. A lot of the time a goalie is only as good as the defense in front of him. Bylsma was only successful when Therrien’s system was still in place for that reason. His defensive system was hope MAF stops an odd man rush then send a 60 ft stretch pass and pray it doesn’t get picked off.

When Sullivan came in his system was new and refreshing and a game changer. Now it’s old, and stale, and actively losing games.
 
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Did they have advanced stats in 09-10? If so, Mike Cammalleri led the galaxy in high danger chances, and buried every one of them that series.
 
SEALBound said:
Given the 2010, 2012, 2013, and 2014 playoffs, it always infuriates me when people question why we kept Murray over Fleury.

Glad he found some good games later in his career which will whitewash his putrid playoff performances in his mid-career. Average goaltending gets you past the Canadians, Flyers, and Rangers. Boston who knows.
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That's why the HF narrative of Fleury being this really elite goalie in the playoffs and the Penguins benefiting from having a really strong starter (usually Oilers fans defending why they haven't won the Cup because of Skinner/Smith) baffles me.

Dude was a laughing stock on HF until he went to Vegas, then had that special run with Vegas and suddenly people forget his playoff performances from 2010 to 2014.
 
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Sidney the Kidney said:
That's why the HF narrative of Fleury being this really elite goalie in the playoffs and the Penguins benefiting from having a really strong starter (usually Oilers fans defending why they haven't won the Cup because of Skinner/Smith) baffles me.

Dude was a laughing stock on HF until he went to Vegas, then had that special run with Vegas and suddenly people forget his playoff performances from 2010 to 2014.
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He was lights out in 2008. Good enough with key saves in 2009. Then shit until he was merely "not the issue" in 2015. Then Murray steps in and wins the Cup. Then MAF puts together a single good quality series against the Caps in 2017 (CBJ were good but not like he had to be all that great) and suddenly all is forgotten. Never mind that, what, 3 games later he's benched for Murray who carried us the rest of the way.

His smile and personality whitewashed a lot of putrid play. But I mean, I still like the guy. I still root for him.
 
K Fleur said:
Save percentage isn’t everything. In the playoffs you need your goalie to make big saves when your team needs them. Like 09 against the Caps I don’t really care what MAFs save percentage was. It was a high scoring series and he made a huge momentum swinging save a minute into game 7.

Now check him out 30 seconds into game 7 against Montreal

Click to expand...

Maybe that Caps series doesn't go 7 games if Maf wasn't playing so inconsistently? I mean great that he won it in the end but with the shitty numbers Maf put up that playoffs he could have easily lost. He very much got bailed out by Crosby and Malkin being absolute beasts that year.

I mean it's great that what Maf did that playoffs was ultimately good enough to get the job done but I also think that it was a sign of things to come because he had the same shitty (or worse) play for the next 4-5 years after that except that that those times he didn't get bailed out by his offense.
 
SEALBound said:
He was lights out in 2008. Good enough with key saves in 2009. Then shit until he was merely "not the issue" in 2015. Then Murray steps in and wins the Cup. Then MAF puts together a single good quality series against the Caps in 2017 (CBJ were good but not like he had to be all that great) and suddenly all is forgotten. Never mind that, what, 3 games later he's benched for Murray who carried us the rest of the way.

His smile and personality whitewashed a lot of putrid play. But I mean, I still like the guy. I still root for him.
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2008 and the 2017 Caps series were really the only runs where you can say he was great for us. Pretty much the rest of his playoff tenure ranged from average to downright putrid.

Look at the 2009 Cup run. If you swapped Fleury for each opponents' goalie we faced, do we lose any of those series? For instance, does Carolina sweep us if we had Ward and they had Fleury? Does Detroit win the Cup if you swapped Fleury and Osgood?

I don't want to pile on the guy because he generally seemed like a good teammate, and he gave us durability during the regular seasons that is hard to come by. But this idea that he was some sort of "advantage" the Pens had during their peak versus what some teams who fail to win the Cup have is unfounded.
 
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Sidney the Kidney said:
2008 and the 2017 Caps series were really the only runs where you can say he was great for us. Pretty much the rest of his playoff tenure ranged from average to downright putrid.

Look at the 2009 Cup run. If you swapped Fleury for each opponents' goalie we faced, do we lose any of those series? For instance, does Carolina sweep us if we had Ward and they had Fleury? Does Detroit win the Cup if you swapped Fleury and Osgood?

I don't want to pile on the guy because he generally seemed like a good teammate, and he gave us durability during the regular seasons that is hard to come by. But this idea that he was some sort of "advantage" the Pens had during their peak versus what some teams who fail to win the Cup have is unfounded.
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I think we probably lose to Detroit if we swap Maf for Osgood. Maf was legitimately great in games 6 and 7 vs the Wings and I don't know that Osgood could have done the same.

But I think if you swap Maf for the other team's goalie in any of those other series the Pens probably still win.
 
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A good chunk of Penguins fans have always made excuses for Fleury they absolutely would not for just about any other player. He's always had kind of a weird little cult-y following. And much like you guys I don't even hate him or anything close to it. He just gets a LOT of favorable revisionist history tossed his way.
 
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Randy Butternubs said:
Back then I think they only had Coarsi and Hunwick.
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images

"They say no one's ever beaten the Fenwick"
Pancakes said:
I think we probably lose to Detroit if we swap Maf for Osgood. Maf was legitimately great in games 6 and 7 vs the Wings and I don't know that Osgood could have done the same.

But I think if you swap Maf for the other team's goalie in any of those other series the Pens probably still win.
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I think that is probably true.

MAF is still a good goalie and I think he would have found success no matter who drafted him. But say it was Carolina or Florida, I don't think he's the cultural hero that he was after playing on a team that draft Malkin, then Crosby, then Staal after him. He starts on Carolina or Florida, he isn't #3 all time in wins. Probably doesn't have a cup either. MAF owes A LOT of his career to Sid and Geno.
 
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SomeDude said:
Sid contract announcement tomorrow at 8:07 am?
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I’m now guessing it doesn’t happen until right before training camp begins when he’s in Pittsburgh. Just a guess. If tomorrow, it will be at 8:07 pm lol…
 
Andy99 said:
I’m now guessing it doesn’t happen until right before training camp begins when he’s in Pittsburgh. Just a guess. If tomorrow, it will be at 8:07 pm lol…
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If it doesn’t happen tomorrow there’s a good chance it doesn’t happen ever. The only reason it wouldn’t be done July 1 is Sid being superstitious and since he’s going away from 8.7 per year wanting to sign it on 8/7. Which is crazy, but plausible given his weirdness.

It’s not like they have tense negotiations. It’s name your price and as long as it’s not incredibly ridiculous, sign here. Unless Sid isn’t on board with a rebuild which silence tomorrow would make me lean that way.
 
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