Salary Cap: Pens Summer Salary Thread: Dull days of August... Oooo! A trade!

[eXile3]

I think the issue here is that the argument started over vilifying the Penguins for letting Guentzel walk.

Guentzel wanted to get his bag as a free agent, and I don't blame him one bit. He had been criminally underpaid for his entire career and already won a cup. I don't blame him for chasing money, I just think it's silly to criticize the Penguins for not being the one willing to give him that mega deal.

Guentzel signed a $63 million deal that had $53 million as signing bonuses in a state with no state income taxes. If that doesn't clearly say "he was chasing money", I don't know what will.

It’s not the Penguins, it’s Dubas. If he didn’t want to pay him he should have had another plan then waiting to the deadline to get some misfit prospects. To not even get a top 5 prospect for him was incredibly disappointing.

 

[HandshakeLine]

The logical leaps this board takes to vilify Jake is crazy.

Jake wanted to be a Pen and wanted to be paid fairly. I don’t blame him one bit.

I don’t blame him but I am honor bound to hate him forever now

 

[Empoleon8771]

It’s not the Penguins, it’s Dubas. If he didn’t want to pay him he should have had another plan then waiting to the deadline to get some misfit prospects. To not even get a top 5 prospect for him was incredibly disappointing.

1. Dubas did nothing wrong with how he handled Guentzel.
2. Both Ponomarev and Koivunen were top-5 prospects for the Canes. Both were consistently ranked in the 4-6 range in the Canes prospect pool, with Nikishin, Morrow and Nadeau ahead of them and Blake with them. And no team is trading a Nikishin, Morrow or Nadeau caliber prospect for a rental Guentzel.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Guentzel signed a $63 million deal that had $53 million as signing bonuses in a state with no state income taxes. If that doesn't clearly say "he was chasing money", I don't know what will.

It might just say:

"If the organization I spent the last decade with doesn't want to commit the per annum and term I've earned with the quality and constistency I've shown, then I'll sign with a really good team with elite players who offer a better chance at winning...in a state with no income taxes."

Seems pretty reasonable to me. "Chasing money" implies cash was the only thing he cared about...but he went to a better team.

 

[Empoleon8771]

It might just say:

"If the organization I spent the last decade with doesn't want to commit the per annum and term I've earned with the quality and constistency I've shown, then I'll sign with a really good team with elite players who offer a better chance at winning...in a state with no income taxes."

Seems pretty reasonable to me. "Chasing money" implies cash was the only thing he cared about...but he went to a better team.

It is so painfully obvious that his decision was about money, no matter how you try to spin it otherwise.

If it wasn't about money, he wouldn't have demanded $53 million of the $63 million on his deal be in the form of signing bonuses.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

It is so painfully obvious that his decision was about money, no matter how you try to spin it otherwise.

If it wasn't about money, he wouldn't have demanded $53 million of the $63 million on his deal be in the form of signing bonuses.

Why not?

Where did he have to compromise? Linemates? Opportunity to win?

 

[AuroraBorealis]

It’s not the Penguins, it’s Dubas. If he didn’t want to pay him he should have had another plan then waiting to the deadline to get some misfit prospects. To not even get a top 5 prospect for him was incredibly disappointing.

Bunting alone is a quality player, one who can generate more pick(s) for them when they trade him. Pretty good candidate for 60 points this year, at a very good cap hit.
Then they got two former 2nds, Ponomarev and Koivunen, and a former 4th (Cruz Lucius). There was also a conditional 1st and 5th involved. Because the condition of the Canes reaching the Finals wasn't met, that turned into yet another 2nd.

So in summation the trade will be the future return for Bunting, three 2nds and a 4th for 20 games + playoffs of Guentzel and Smith. The Canes didn't even keep Jake.
In no world is that a bad trade from Dubas. Sorry.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Why not?

Where did he have to compromise? Linemates? Opportunity to win?

You're trying to muddy the water by saying "Tampa is good, he didn't just go there for money" when all of his actions with Carolina along with the contract he signed in Tampa Bay suggest that money was by far his driving factor.

He wanted to go to the highest bidder and the Penguins didn't want to pay him the prices that other teams were willing to pay him. That's the truth with the Guentzel situation. If he loved the Penguins so much and wanted to stay here so badly, he wouldn't have said "let's wait until the off-season to discuss a contract".

 

[Rave7215]

1. Dubas did nothing wrong with how he handled Guentzel.
2. Both Ponomarev and Koivunen were top-5 prospects for the Canes. Both were consistently ranked in the 4-6 range in the Canes prospect pool, with Nikishin, Morrow and Nadeau ahead of them and Blake with them. And no team is trading a Nikishin, Morrow or Nadeau caliber prospect for a rental Guentzel.

People are just way too hung up on the fact that we didn't get a First Round pick. Instead got the equivalent of 4 second rounders. Too many people are enamored with something of top value instead of the whole value. I swear some people on this board would rather be handed a $50 bill because it has a bigger number than being handed 4 $20 bills. That's exactly what happened here and Dubas did a good job maximizing value by getting prospects that are closer to compete than a first rounder that wouldn't be signed for 3 years and then have to be developed.

 

[Rakell67]

Bunting alone is a quality player, one who can generate more pick(s) for them when they trade him. Pretty good candidate for 60 points this year, at a very good cap hit.
Then they got two former 2nds, Ponomarev and Koivunen, and a former 4th (Cruz Lucius). There was also a conditional 1st and 5th involved. Because the condition of the Canes reaching the Finals wasn't met, that turned into yet another 2nd.

So in summation the trade will be the future return for Bunting, three 2nds and a 4th for 20 games + playoffs of Guentzel. The Canes didn't even keep him.
In no world is that a bad trade from Dubas. Sorry.

Wasn't the 2nd the Pens received used to select Brunicke?

Bunting, Ponomarev, Koivunen, Lucius, 2nd (Brunicke)
For
Guentzel (25% retained), Ty Smith

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

You're trying to muddy the water by saying "Tampa is good, he didn't just go there for money" when all of his actions with Carolina along with the contract he signed in Tampa Bay suggest that money was by far his driving factor.

He wanted to go to the highest bidder and the Penguins didn't want to pay him the prices that other teams were willing to pay him. That's the truth with the Guentzel situation. If he loved the Penguins so much and wanted to stay here so badly, he wouldn't have said "let's wait until the off-season to discuss a contract". He would have been willing to sign for below market value.

That's ridiculous. Guentzel severely outperformed his last deal, God forbid he get paid fairly on his next one. Loyalty works both ways.

Pens went in a different direction and have not only gone on record saying they don't want to be committing big dollars and term to UFAs, its exactly what they've done.

No hard feelings, but people acting as though Guentzel's only priority has been money have precious little to stand on.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Wasn't the 2nd the Pens received used to select Brunicke?

Bunting, Ponomarev, Koivunen, Lucius, 2nd (Brunicke)
For
Guentzel (25% retained), Ty Smith

Yes. And what if Bunting is sitting on like 45 points at the deadline through 60 games? Is he not getting a 1st back? The results of this trade aren't over.
People are totally underselling how good of a player this is.

People are just way too hung up on the fact that we didn't get a First Round pick. Instead got the equivalent of 4 second rounders. Too many people are enamored with something of top value instead of the whole value. I swear some people on this board would rather be handed a $50 bill because it has a bigger number than being handed 4 $20 bills. That's exactly what happened here and Dubas did a good job maximizing value by getting prospects that are closer to compete than a first rounder that wouldn't be signed for 3 years and then have to be developed.

We used 2nds and 3rds to win Cups. Pivotal roles. People forget our team's history so quickly.

 

[Empoleon8771]

That's ridiculous. Guentzel severely outperformed his last deal, God forbid he get paid fairly on his next one. Loyalty works both ways.

Pens went in a different direction and have not only gone on record saying they don't want to be committing big dollars and term to UFAs, its exactly what they've done.

No hard feelings, but people acting as though Guentzel's only priority has been money have precious little to stand on.

If Guentzel loved the Penguins so much and didn't want to leave so badly, he would have been working as hard as possible to get a deal done with the Penguins that fit what the Penguins were doing. But he obviously didn't love the Penguins to that level, hence why he said "I'm not talking about a contract extension until the off-season". Acting like Guentzel was somehow a victim of the Penguins because they didn't want to give him a huge deal is just silly.

The Penguins did literally nothing wrong with how they handled Guentzel's contract and trade. The two sides were incompatible for an extension due to what Guentzel was looking to do (cash in and get his retirement deal) and where the Penguins are as a franchise (on the onset of a rebuild). Guentzel got his bag on an extremely tax advantageous deal and the Penguins got futures like they wanted.

 

[Gurglesons]

1. Dubas did nothing wrong with how he handled Guentzel.
2. Both Ponomarev and Koivunen were top-5 prospects for the Canes. Both were consistently ranked in the 4-6 range in the Canes prospect pool, with Nikishin, Morrow and Nadeau ahead of them and Blake with them. And no team is trading a Nikishin, Morrow or Nadeau caliber prospect for a rental Guentzel.

The only people that rate Koivunen as a top prospect are clueless.

Trade was horrendous.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The only people that rate Koivunen as a top prospect are clueless.

Trade was horrendous.

I guess Scott Wheeler is clueless now all of a sudden.

 

[Gurglesons]

I guess Scott Wheeler is clueless now all of a sudden.

Wheeler had Koivunen rated 7th in the Canes system in February before the trade.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Wheeler had Koivunen rated 7th in the Canes system in February before the trade.

Yeah and I said that Koivunen and Ponomarev were ranked in the 4-6 range consistently when they was traded. That was my point.

It just seems to be splitting hairs to be mad that the Penguins didn’t get “a top-5 prospect” from the Canes when they got the 6th, 7th and 9th (off of memory, I think Lucius was 9th), and their 1st through 3rd ranked prospects are simply not getting traded for a rental.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

If Guentzel loved the Penguins so much and didn't want to leave so badly, he would have been working as hard as possible to get a deal done with the Penguins that fit what the Penguins were doing. But he obviously didn't love the Penguins to that level, hence why he said "I'm not talking about a contract extension until the off-season". Acting like Guentzel was somehow a victim of the Penguins because they didn't want to give him a huge deal is just silly.

The Penguins did literally nothing wrong with how they handled Guentzel's contract and trade. The two sides were incompatible for an extension due to what Guentzel was looking to do (cash in and get his retirement deal) and where the Penguins are as a franchise (on the onset of a rebuild). Guentzel got his bag on an extremely tax advantageous deal and the Penguins got futures like they wanted.

Where did he say that?

Show me where I acted like Guentzel was a victim.

 

[HandshakeLine]

So how did our incredible new assets look in the rookie tournament?

 

[Gurglesons]

Yeah and I said that Koivunen and Ponomarev were ranked in the 4-6 range consistently when they was traded. That was my point.

It just seems to be splitting hairs to be mad that the Penguins didn’t get “a top-5 prospect” from the Canes when they got the 6th, 7th and 9th (off of memory, I think Lucius was 9th), and their 1st through 3rd ranked prospects are simply not getting traded for a rental.

So 7 is now in the 4-6 range + around a top 5 prospect?

I don’t know why we have to defend that trade. It sucked.

It’s looking like the 2nd rounder we got could be a solid steal, Bunting has been good and Pono could potentially be a bottom six forward.

Trading a 40G 90pt UFA for that package is pretty shit tho.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

You're trying to muddy the water by saying "Tampa is good, he didn't just go there for money" when all of his actions with Carolina along with the contract he signed in Tampa Bay suggest that money was by far his driving factor.

He wanted to go to the highest bidder and the Penguins didn't want to pay him the prices that other teams were willing to pay him. That's the truth with the Guentzel situation. If he loved the Penguins so much and wanted to stay here so badly, he wouldn't have said "let's wait until the off-season to discuss a contract".

I don't know why you don't think it could be a combination of BOTH money and a good team/good players to play with. If I'm a player, why wouldn't I want to go to Tampa to play with the likes of Kucherov and Point, especially with Stamkos gone and a spot wide open on that top PP unit.

You're kind of making it sound like Jake took the most money from a team that sucks so clearly the ONLY thing he chased was cash, when Tampa's just as likely to go deep in the playoffs than either of the teams Jake spurned (Pens and Canes).

 

[Darren McCord]

Meh why are we still talking about the Jake trade. That was 6 months ago and not worth crying over.

I cant wait for the offseason to be over.

 

[Ryder71]

It’s not the Penguins, it’s Dubas. If he didn’t want to pay him he should have had another plan then waiting to the deadline to get some misfit prospects. To not even get a top 5 prospect for him was incredibly disappointing.

He got TWO top five prospects actually. You need to do more research. In most prospect pools Pono and Koivunen would be 3rd and 4th. The Canes just happened to have a very deep prospect pool. In addition we got a top six forward in Bunting and a promising 2hd rounder according to many prospect junkies including Jesse.

Jake is a house of cards, after a couple years he'll be worthless. Glad he's gone and we got younger!

Trading a 40G 90pt UFA for that package is pretty shit tho.

 

[eXile3]

He got TWO top five prospects actually. You need to do more research. In most prospect pools Pono and Koivunen would be 3rd and 4th. The Canes just happened to have a very deep prospect pool. In addition we got a top six forward in Bunting and a promising 2hd rounder according to many prospect junkies including Jesse.

Jake is a house of cards, after a couple years he'll be worthless. Glad he's gone and we got younger!

The rankings I looked at had Koivunen at 6th. I would put money on none of the players acquired in the trade will go on to produce anything near what Jake has, and will.

 

[Ryder71]

Meh why are we still talking about the Jake trade. That was 6 months ago and not worth crying over.

I cant wait for the offseason to be over.

Because we got a bunch of uneducated dumb asses here who can't let go of that muppet.

And listen he has underlying injuries, just watch how he ages, it won't be pretty.

The rankings I looked at had Koivunen at 6th. I would put money on none of the players acquired in the trade will go on to produce anything near what Jake has, and will.

You need to look at the totally of the pieces we got and not just one component. That's cherry picking. The Package in totality was MORE than fair.

Beyond that the Canes gave up quite a bit and ended up with nothing!