Salary Cap: Pens Summer Salary Thread: Dull days of August... Oooo! A trade!

[Honour Over Glory]

He also easily could have wanted to re-sign in Pittsburgh for less than he signed for elsewhere, but chose to sign with the highest bidder when it boiled down to teams he had absolutely no history or connection to.

We don't know definitively either way. But we do know that he would've preferred to stay in Pittsburgh, all things being equal.

He signed for 500k more of a cap hit and 1yr extra in Tampa. So if that term was the issue, I doubt it wouldn't have been matched.

The issue is you forget what was reported.

“My understanding is that Guentzel is comfortable waiting this out. He wants to understand and have a clearer picture as to what the future, both short- and long-term, of the Pittsburgh Penguins is going to be if he does sign a long-term extension with the club, be it a six-, seven-, eight-year deal.” - Drew Pagnotta

This is what you keep forgetting. Jake's camp saying that and the no negotiations during the season in January was clear, Jake saw the writing on the wall for this team and wanted to test the market and was always going to from that moment on. Because a clearer picture for the Penguins future is rebuild, keep a coach that isn't working that holds all the power, and an aging core that the coach keeps older by playing vets over youth.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

Pretty sure I wanted to trade Guentzel a year earlier than he was.

I proposed Guentzel for Byfield. That'd be sick as f***.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

But all things weren't equal, because the Penguisn couldn't meet the number that other teams could have/would have been willing to give Guentzel.

Again, it's so painfully obvious that he was chasing money more than anything. They wouldn't have gotten him to sign for less than 8x8 (which was allegedly his ask from the Canes as well), and I can't see any reason why the Penguins are in a position where they should be giving him that kind of deal.

Not at all.

You are equating "couldn't" and "wouldn't". They are not the same. Dubas not wanting to commit dollars and term to FAs in their late 20s is not the same as not being able to.

He signed for 500k more of a cap hit and 1yr extra in Tampa. So if that term was the issue, I doubt it wouldn't have been matched.

The issue is you forget what was reported.



This is what you keep forgetting. Jake's camp saying that and the no negotiations during the season in January was clear, Jake saw the writing on the wall for this team and wanted to test the market and was always going to from that moment on. Because a clearer picture for the Penguins future is rebuild, keep a coach that isn't working that holds all the power, and an aging core that the coach keeps older by playing vets over youth.

I'm not forgetting anything. I'm just not using Drew Pagnotta as a definitive source for anything.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Tampa had two elite shooters in Kucherov and Stamkos. And they had the perfect setup with that of right hand/left hand shots on either side. Will be interesting to see if they can keep up the elite PP numbers without Stamkos. Jake is as we know rather mediocre on the PP. But maybe Tampa will find out how to use him better.

I think you can get away with being an old team on the PP if you have the right ingredients but I don't think we currently do. I think our PP could be coached to better than it is but I dunno that it will ever be elite again. No reason it can't be league average or slightly above though, and it's an embarrassment that it isn't.

Point, Kucherov, Jake, Hagel, Cirelli...I think they'll be fine. If anything, Jake is likely taking the slot that Stammer was in on the powerplay, that offense runs through Kucherov and Brayden Point has been a star for a while that deserves a lot more respect than he gets. Hagel was an incredible get by the Bolts as well, he's gotten better since being there and has become a legitimate top 6 player since. They have cap issues, sure, also an old team as well, not as old as the Penguins but up there. But they have a decent supporting cast - Paul, Sheary, Atkinson, Eyssimont, and will likely see some youth rotated in like Goncalves, Finley, etc.

Tampa's powerplay is great because they not static at all on it, just watch all of their powerplay goals last year and you'll see something the Penguins don't do - Movement. Also they have one player in front of the goalie and another player really down low in the slot so you have almost 2 players screening the goalie and then you have Stammer on the left side for his classic one timer or snapper and then Kucherov is on the right moving the puck up and down and creating openings. Penguins literally have Sid, Geno, Rust/Rakell standing around and barely any traffic near the net until they put up a clear shot the goalie sees and rush to the net for a rebound.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Summer Sticks | Jarry | Pittsburgh Penguins

Tristan Jarry golfing mic

www.nhl.com

Short clip of the board's favorite player

 

[Pancakes]

Point, Kucherov, Jake, Hagel, Cirelli...I think they'll be fine. If anything, Jake is likely taking the slot that Stammer was in on the powerplay, that offense runs through Kucherov and Brayden Point has been a star for a while that deserves a lot more respect than he gets. Hagel was an incredible get by the Bolts as well, he's gotten better since being there and has become a legitimate top 6 player since. They have cap issues, sure, also an old team as well, not as old as the Penguins but up there. But they have a decent supporting cast - Paul, Sheary, Atkinson, Eyssimont, and will likely see some youth rotated in like Goncalves, Finley, etc.

Tampa's powerplay is great because they not static at all on it, just watch all of their powerplay goals last year and you'll see something the Penguins don't do - Movement. Also they have one player in front of the goalie and another player really down low in the slot so you have almost 2 players screening the goalie and then you have Stammer on the left side for his classic one timer or snapper and then Kucherov is on the right moving the puck up and down and creating openings. Penguins literally have Sid, Geno, Rust/Rakell standing around and barely any traffic near the net until they put up a clear shot the goalie sees and rush to the net for a rebound.

Tampa loves to run that bumper play too and yeah they do zip it around and have so many options that it makes PK's heads spin.

What set plays do we even have? EK tries a slap pass to Sid? Malkin/Sid setup for an obvious one timer that EK/Letang put into their skates half the time anyways? Lol. It's so bad. There's zero flow to the Pens PP.

And that's assuming we even get setup in the zone. Our pp breakout is a disaster that EK did not fix.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

Summer Sticks | Jarry | Pittsburgh Penguins

Tristan Jarry golfing mic

www.nhl.com

Short clip of the board's favorite player

This isn't Max Talbot.

 

[BusinessGoose]

Okay, sure, Jake WANTED to sign a contract with $53mil in tax exempt bonuses, but he COULDN'T sign that here

So... We're pretty much back to, Jake was never going to re-sign in Pittsburgh

It's like, I also WANT to sign a multi year multi million dollar contract in Pittsburgh, but uh, I suck at hockey, so that's clearly Dubas' fault that I'm not signed

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Not at all.

You are equating "couldn't" and "wouldn't". They are not the same. Dubas not wanting to commit dollars and term to FAs in their late 20s is not the same as not being able to.


I'm not forgetting anything. I'm just not using Drew Pagnotta as a definitive source for anything.

https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/pittsburgh-penguins/latest-news/jake-guentzel-rejects-contract-offer-pittsburgh-penguins

https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/pittsburgh-penguins/latest-news/jake-guentzel-addresses-contract-rumors-pittsburgh-penguins

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5210132/2024/01/17/penguins-jake-guentzel-kyle-dubas-trade/

Dubas talks Guentzel, the trade deadline and the future of the Penguins

Pittsburgh’s GM talks on a wide-range of subjects today

www.pensburgh.com

January 11th, 2024

"This will get really heated down the stretch," Guentzel's agent, Ben Hankinson, told me last week. "It's going to get interesting."

Kaplan's latest NHL buzz: Guentzel's future, Gauthier trade among hot topics

We're less than two months away from the trade deadline, and there are plenty of intriguing storylines around the league, including the latest on Cutter Gauthier and what happens with Jake Guentzel in Pittsburgh.

www.espn.com

Let's use January 11th as the mark until March 8th.

In that span to show where the Penguins were trending, they went 8-10-4 in 22 games, a .455 win % - allowing 3.09 goals against (18th) and scoring 2.64 goals (29th, Sharks were 30th behind the Penguins, a dead last team). So in that time, it's also very possible that Dubas and Jake's camp spoke and got a clearer picture - Jake's camp likely still saying they wanted to wait until after the season and Dubas knowing the writing was on the wall given that the team wasn't getting better yet again and back to trending down after a good run in Nov & December which then went back to shit in January through March.


Again, Jake could have returned seeing the return he brought back for the Penguins, he could have been a part of that and helped the team in a huge way...

"I don't think (the door) is closed," Dubas told me when I asked about a potential Guentzel return at the NHL's Scouting Combine in Buffalo, N.Y. on Saturday. "If the player is interested, I think he knows the situation pretty well."

Pittsburgh Steelers, Penguins, Pirates News, Live Coverage | DK Pittsburgh Sports

Pittsburgh Steelers, Penguins, Pirates News, Live Coverage | DK Pittsburgh Sports

www.dkpittsburghsports.com

Also of note - When Dubas said "he's entitled to his opinion" which was definitely a shot at Jake and his camp playing a different narrative of basically victim of circumstance, to me Kyle doesn't seem the type to do something out of the blue, there's a very good chance he spoke to Jake and his camp several times and they made the decision for him in the end.

But my goodness, you seem to want to live and die by this, that Jake was done dirty when he really wasn't.

Summer Sticks | Jarry | Pittsburgh Penguins

Tristan Jarry golfing mic

www.nhl.com

Short clip of the board's favorite player

I might be his only fan left here, so thanks for posting that.

I'll let the haters get it to with Jarry.

 

[Coastal Kev]

Pretty sure I wanted to trade Guentzel a year earlier than he was.

I proposed Guentzel for Byfield. That'd be sick as f***.

Go back 18 months earlier and I was pimping Jake in a package for Tkachuk. A little foresight from our GM and the Pens would have been competing or a cup last season.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I think you can get away with being an old team on the PP if you have the right ingredients but I don't think we currently do. I think our PP could be coached to better than it is but I dunno that it will ever be elite again. No reason it can't be league average or slightly above though, and it's an embarrassment that it isn't.

I wanted to dig into this a little more, because I don't necessarily think you need a lot of elite talent to make a powerplay better. It all revolves around the set up and zone entry, the way the Penguins do both is so passive that it doesn't pressure the PK at all, actually the PK's that set up against the Penguins have the easiest time vs any other team that boasts talent like the Penguins. Penguins definitely had some drop off with Sid & Geno but that had a lot to do with the injuries catching up to Hornqvist, Kessel and his rift with Sullivan and a bunch of other factors, the year they were 4th was also during the 56 game covid season, so really they've been trending down for a while and still doing the same thing over and over again hoping it'd change and it really didn't by much until the wheels fell off of it last season. The part that really irked me was when they did try other players, it produced results but the moment Rakell and Rust were available, they were back on the powerplay immediately and it suffered with the same stagnant issues. It's funny December 8th - 30th they were ranked pretty decent, around 12th - Basically that month, I could say why but the usual haters will chime in, but a certain player was added and played top PP mins in that span, the rest of the months in the season the Penguins never ranked higher than 12th...interesting no (actually from Dec 8-20 they were ranked 8th, Rakell slowly started to get more ice time and it dropped, Rust came back and it got worse)?

Tampa often at times had Duclair in front of the net on their 1st unit and rotated a few in and out, Hagel would take Point's spot at the high slot/point as the 4th forward with Kucherov and Stamkos (Hedman being the only D-man).

Arizona was 15th on the powerplay as another example and Kraken at 17th. Kraken isn't oozing with elite talent at all really and had a down year for a lot of players and injuries, Arizona has Keller and some pretty good young talent, but even the Kraken doing better? The thing is the Penguins were ranked 14th for the powerplay last season and still missed the playoffs. At what point do we say, ok it wasn't the powerplay because going from 29th to say 15th, do they still make the playoffs?

I don't think they do at all.

They were better in 2022-23 with a better ranked powerplay and better record and missed the playoffs.
In 2023-24 they were awful all around and the powerplay was even worse, they weren't going to make the playoffs even with the same powerplay results as the year before.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Go back 18 months earlier and I was pimping Jake in a package for Tkachuk. A little foresight from our GM and the Pens would have been competing or a cup last season.

For what Jake is getting in his first three years and Tampa's tax situation, he's getting around 30-31m in his first 3 seasons alone, realistically for the Penguins to even match that, they'd have to cripple their salary cap.

How Much Do NHL Players Really Make? Part 2: Taxes

Although published NHL salaries may seem exorbitant at times, players’ annual income is subject to a number of withholdings that limit their take-home pay. As we explained in Part 1 of this series,…

hockey-graphs.com

Tax tricks: How an $8.5M Lightning contract keeping Steven Stamkos in Tampa is better than $10.5M to leave

TAMPA — When Canada's Sportsnet reported Saturday that the Lightning had offered captain Steven Stamkos an eight-year, $68 million deal, a popular reaction from fans and pundits was, "That's it?"

www.tampabay.com

It ended up being clear he wanted his pay day, he got it. Good for him.

 

[Jacob]

If you exclusively play O'Connor with Crosby over a full season, he's producing more than that. He had 7 goals and 12 points in 19 games to finish last year when he was playing exclusively with Crosby.

O'Connor is a 20-20 player on any team's 2nd line if you use him in that role over a full season. O'Connor is a Ross Colton caliber player IMO.

And if that’s a possibility I’d extend him now rather than after a full year playing top 6.

And that’s where I think he should be. Not just the points but we scored a few because he was creating traffic but he didn’t get credited with an assist. Him getting more meaningful ice time + adding Bunting gave us genuine net/
-front presences again and even point shots started to become decent chances. And the skating and size to get on loose pucks, etc.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/pittsburgh-penguins/latest-news/jake-guentzel-rejects-contract-offer-pittsburgh-penguins

https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/pittsburgh-penguins/latest-news/jake-guentzel-addresses-contract-rumors-pittsburgh-penguins

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5210132/2024/01/17/penguins-jake-guentzel-kyle-dubas-trade/

Dubas talks Guentzel, the trade deadline and the future of the Penguins

Pittsburgh’s GM talks on a wide-range of subjects today

www.pensburgh.com

January 11th, 2024

Kaplan's latest NHL buzz: Guentzel's future, Gauthier trade among hot topics

We're less than two months away from the trade deadline, and there are plenty of intriguing storylines around the league, including the latest on Cutter Gauthier and what happens with Jake Guentzel in Pittsburgh.

www.espn.com

Let's use January 11th as the mark until March 8th.

In that span to show where the Penguins were trending, they went 8-10-4 in 22 games, a .455 win % - allowing 3.09 goals against (18th) and scoring 2.64 goals (29th, Sharks were 30th behind the Penguins, a dead last team). So in that time, it's also very possible that Dubas and Jake's camp spoke and got a clearer picture - Jake's camp likely still saying they wanted to wait until after the season and Dubas knowing the writing was on the wall given that the team wasn't getting better yet again and back to trending down after a good run in Nov & December which then went back to shit in January through March.


Again, Jake could have returned seeing the return he brought back for the Penguins, he could have been a part of that and helped the team in a huge way...

Pittsburgh Steelers, Penguins, Pirates News, Live Coverage | DK Pittsburgh Sports

Pittsburgh Steelers, Penguins, Pirates News, Live Coverage | DK Pittsburgh Sports

www.dkpittsburghsports.com

Also of note - When Dubas said "he's entitled to his opinion" which was definitely a shot at Jake and his camp playing a different narrative of basically victim of circumstance, to me Kyle doesn't seem the type to do something out of the blue, there's a very good chance he spoke to Jake and his camp several times and they made the decision for him in the end.

But my goodness, you seem to want to live and die by this, that Jake was done dirty when he really wasn't.


I might be his only fan left here, so thanks for posting that.

I'll let the haters get it to with Jarry.

There is nothing that counters Guentzel's stated claim here.

Guentzel wasn't "done dirty". He wanted to be fairly compensated for his contributions, and Dubas didn't and doesn't want to commit big money and term to anyone. That's just the situation.

 

[SEALBound]

I think both sides got what they wanted. While it sucks, the right thing was done.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I think both sides got what they wanted. While it sucks, the right thing was done.

Exactly. But some want to blame someone I guess as a coping method to ignore the reality of it all.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Who gives a f*** about Jake Guentzel? If he wanted to be here, he'd have re-signed for a couple years and went to FA after Sid retired. Dude wanted to cash in on the one single colossal deal he would get in his entire career, and didn't want to be handcuffed to this dogshit franchise that's already been circling the drain and only stands to crater once Sid hangs 'em up.

Good on the Pens for not caving and re-signing a guy for purely sentimental value since it made no sense practically speaking, and good on Jake for making the choice for the team and getting his huge deal.

But also f*** Jake for making it publicly known all year that he was refusing to discuss/entertain extensions because that decimated his value at the TDL.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Who gives a f*** about Jake Guentzel? If he wanted to be here, he'd have re-signed for a couple years and went to FA after Sid retired. Dude wanted to cash in on the one single colossal deal he would get in his entire career, and didn't want to be handcuffed to this dogshit franchise that's already been circling the drain and only stands to crater once Sid hangs 'em up.

Good on the Pens for not caving and re-signing a guy for purely sentimental value since it made no sense practically speaking, and good on Jake for making the choice for the team and getting his huge deal.

But also f*** Jake for making it publicly known all year that he was refusing to discuss/entertain extensions because that decimated his value at the TDL.

He never received an offer. The Pens wanted futures for him the whole time.
I don't take issue with a single thing he did. Talking about the contract all year is just a distraction, and no headway was being made anyway. It's just empty words.
Probably advice from his agent to keep his trap shut.

Nobody's gonna take a short term deal at 29 when they're that good of a player. You get 1 chance to be overpaid into your late 30's.
And I applaud him for wanting more Cups, instead of choosing loyalty to a sinking ship. He only has 1, not 3 like the core.

Wish him nothing but the best of luck there.

 

[PenguinSuitedUp]

Go back 18 months earlier and I was pimping Jake in a package for Tkachuk. A little foresight from our GM and the Pens would have been competing or a cup last season.

Are we blaming Dubas for not making a Guentzel-Tkachuk swap with Calgary?

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Okay, sure, Jake WANTED to sign a contract with $53mil in tax exempt bonuses, but he COULDN'T sign that here

So... We're pretty much back to, Jake was never going to re-sign in Pittsburgh

It's like, I also WANT to sign a multi year multi million dollar contract in Pittsburgh, but uh, I suck at hockey, so that's clearly Dubas' fault that I'm not signed

All Dubas asked was for the Pens to play like they deserved to have players stay. Sullivan instead coached them to shit. If anyone wants to be mad at someone, Sullivan is the reason a lot of this happened.

He never received an offer. The Pens wanted futures for him the whole time.
I don't take issue with a single thing he did. Talking about the contract all year is just a distraction, and no headway was being made anyway. It's just empty words.
Probably advice from his agent to keep his trap shut.

Nobody's gonna take a short term deal at 29 when they're that good of a player. You get 1 chance to be overpaid into your late 30's.
And I applaud him for wanting more Cups, instead of choosing loyalty to a sinking ship. He only has 1, not 3 like the core.

Wish him nothing but the best of luck there.

I think he did get an offer. With how Dubas reacted to Jake can say what he wants sort of thing it tells me Dubas is pissed Jake is playing the victim in all of this and he isn't going to call a player out because that's not how Dubas is.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I'm glad Jake is being a tool because it makes it easier to keep to my "hate anyone not in a Penguins uniform" policy.

 

[eXile3]

The logical leaps this board takes to vilify Jake is crazy.

Jake wanted to be a Pen and wanted to be paid fairly. I don’t blame him one bit.

 

[Coastal Kev]

Are we blaming Dubas for not making a Guentzel-Tkachuk swap with Calgary?

Really weird response. Can you point to where I suggested that? This board has become very very snarky weird.

 

[Gurglesons]

Are we blaming Dubas for not making a Guentzel-Tkachuk swap with Calgary?

Yes.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The logical leaps this board takes to vilify Jake is crazy.

Jake wanted to be a Pen and wanted to be paid fairly. I don’t blame him one bit.

I think the issue here is that the argument started over vilifying the Penguins for letting Guentzel walk.

Guentzel wanted to get his bag as a free agent, and I don't blame him one bit. He had been criminally underpaid for his entire career and already won a cup. I don't blame him for chasing money, I just think it's silly to criticize the Penguins for not being the one willing to give him that mega deal.

Guentzel signed a $63 million deal that had $53 million as signing bonuses in a state with no state income taxes. If that doesn't clearly say "he was chasing money", I don't know what will.