Salary Cap: Pens Summer Salary Thread: Dull days of August... Oooo! A trade!

[Honour Over Glory]

Ekblad was their number 2 dman at 5v5 and played next to no PP time. I'm not saying that's nothing but that's pretty far from being a guy they needed to pick at the top of the draft. He wasn't their most important dman or maybe even their second most.

For St Louis' cup win, was Thomas a second rounder who played 13 minutes a night and Kyrou didn't play. They didn't have Buchnevich then.

Is it hard to go around getting great talent in in the late 1st/2nd/later or through trade? Yeah. Very. But it seems to be getting more doable. It's also kinda of noticeable that a lot of the more recent built through the draft teams aren't having a bunch of fun. The Buffalos/Edmontons/Torontos that should have taken over from the Pittsburghs/Chicagos/Washingtons haven't. That narrative looks a bit different if Edmonton win for sure, but I think it's enough to say the way to team build in the NHL is maybe changing.

That doesn't make it applicable for every team and I make the point as a generality.

That Blues squad that won the Cup had a lot of home grown (developed talent) on their team, interesting to look back on. Re: Thomas I think was hurt in that playoffs near the end vs Boston, had wrist surgery after, but they had a decent amount of top picks that they drafted on their Roster.

Rob Thomas - 1st round, 20th OVA
Robby Fabri - 1st round, 21st OVA
Jordan Schmaltz - 1st round, 25th OVA
Jaden Schwartz & Vladimir Tarasenko - 1st round, 14th and 16th OVA

Then you had Pietrangelo, Parayko, Edmundson, Dunn, Allen, Blais, Binnington, Barbashev, Kyrou, etc all playing that season as well and some in the playoffs (Schmaltz, Kyrou, and MacEachern didn't).

 

[Gurglesons]

Any GM probably could have made those moves, maybe given up more, taken on less, etc. But each GM would have targeted a different return, we have the GM that went after Karlsson while keeping the dipshit coach that was tanking the team for years and expecting someone like Karlsson to help fix a problem that can't be fixed via any addition of talent or otherwise.

Yeah, the EK65 acquisitions makes little sense given how quickly Dubas has pivoted to "who cares how we do".

It's actually an awful move in retrospect. We'd be getting out from the cap hits of Petry and Granlund this year. We would've had another top 15 1st which San Jose used to take a potential franchise defensemen.

That Blues squad that won the Cup had a lot of home grown (developed talent) on their team, interesting to look back on. Re: Thomas I think was hurt in that playoffs near the end vs Boston, had wrist surgery after, but they had a decent amount of top picks that they drafted on their Roster.

Rob Thomas - 1st round, 20th OVA
Robby Fabri - 1st round, 21st OVA
Jordan Schmaltz - 1st round, 25th OVA
Jaden Schwartz & Vladimir Tarasenko - 1st round, 14th and 16th OVA

Then you had Pietrangelo, Parayko, Edmundson, Dunn, Allen, Blais, Binnington, Barbashev, Kyrou, etc all playing that season as well and some in the playoffs (Schmaltz, Kyrou, and MacEachern didn't).

I think the point @Peat is making is mainly that St Louis developed these picks while being "competitive".

 

[Honour Over Glory]

4 out of 5 of Florida’s top scorers were drafted in the top 6. That’s not even counting Ekbald, who hasn’t lived up to expectations but is still a good player.

No they didn’t draft them outside of Barkov, but they absolutely needed them to win.

Blues won with a lot of drafted players and some smart adds.
Florida won with almost entirely of smart adds and a few drafted talent.

Vegas I mean is like Florida in that same make up of their roster, Penguins were more of a blend of the Blues and Panthers, Caps the same, Avs etc all the same.

Blues I think were the deepest of own drafted and developed talent making up most of their Roster for the last 10 cup wins and roster make up. I want to say maybe 70% of that roster was the Blues own drafted players.

Yeah, the EK65 acquisitions makes little sense given how quickly Dubas has pivoted to "who cares how we do".

It's actually an awful move in retrospect. We'd be getting out from the cap hits of Petry and Granlund this year. We would've had another top 15 1st which San Jose used to take a potential franchise defensemen.



I think the point @Peat is making is mainly that St Louis developed these picks while being "competitive".

Oh I agree with Peat, the Blues were picking mostly in the 20-25th range for some of those players that are helping them a ton now and even back then, but a few in the 14-20 range as well and then a couple later in the draft like 2nd to 4th rounds.

Even Perron returning was technically a return of a homegrown talent for them. Parayko was a 3rd, Edmundson was a 2nd, Dunn was a 2nd, Barbashev was a 2nd, so yeah you can definitely keep building up a solid roster by just scouting well after the 1st round and then having a very good developmental staff.

Something I have zero faith in with the Penguins and even less with the coach and his mindset.

Edit: The EK move I think Dubas now sees his move as to retool and just add as many picks while still icing a fairly decent team in his coach's mind to keep drafting as many prospects to increase the percentage of hitting on future NHL'ers. It's a shame Dubas can't see past the hype he's been fed by the ownership and higher ups about Mike Sullivan, because while he's making pretty average and typical GM moves in that same position, he's ignoring some very glaring ones and falling prey to the same issues JR and Hextall/Burke fell into before him - That Mike Sullivan is the X-Factor for making the Penguins great.


He is an X-Factor for f***ing sure, for making the Penguins worse and setting them back about 5-10yrs.

 

[badi]

Glass is 25 years old
6th overall pick
Got a 3rd to take him
Why not give him 1 year to see if he works out ….
Can’t lose nothing

 

[Honour Over Glory]

My biggest issue with Kindergarten Kyle is that he was never hired to be the General Manager of this team, he was hired to be the President of Hockey Operations, something he wanted on the Leafs but Shanahan didn't really care for. He was supposed to hire a GM and then decided to take on the job himself, I thought ok maybe a year, but now heading into year 2, he's still the GM and there doesn't seem to be any sign of him wanting to take a step back into the role he was hired for and hire someone to do the job he was supposed to hire someone for.

 

[eXile3]

If you (and others) want to bottom out, then you should be campaigning like crazy for a Crosby trade, followed by a Letang trade, a Karlsson trade, etc. etc.

You have to play the hand you're dealt with, and I think everybody here would agree (and conclude) that we have been dealt the mother of all hands for the last two decades!

Chicago could not, and did not, bottom out until Toews and Kane were gone. They doubled down on those moves by not even qualifying Strome and trading DeBrincat. I don't think they got nearly enough for either Kane or DeBrincat, and lost the other two for nothing. THAT is how you bottom out.

People here want this team to bottom out, but we cannot as presently constructed. If you want the team to PLAN to bottom out, then fine.

But I still watch the games, and if their plan is to bottom out I cannot. Sorry, I am too old to watch the Chicago White Sox of hockey. And we live in a world where we have way too many options as a substitute.

Therefore, let's try to make the postseason, get in the tournament and see what happens. Once some of these mediocre players that we acquired this off-season prove that they are, you guessed it, mediocre, maybe we can wake up, smell the coffee and realize that we got better late last season when we got younger.

Hopefully, that realization won't be too late like it was last season.

I’m not rooting for us to lose. Rebuilding sucks and nothing is guaranteed.

I’m just pointing historical evidence of what I believe is the most successful way to rebuild.

I just wish we would pick a direction. If we want to compete the next three years then commit to it. This half measure stuff worries me.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Glass is 25 years old
6th overall pick
Got a 3rd to take him
Why not give him 1 year to see if he works out ….
Can’t lose nothing

Nothing wrong with Cody Glass to be honest, he had a very good season the year before, in terms of his career he finally looked to be breaking out and then had a knee injury that he really didn't look all that great from recovering with last season. His cap hit was expendable for the Predators and Dubas made a smart move, but I would have rather this move than getting Kevin Hayes, for example. Glass is still an RFA after this season as well.

Glass makes more sense than Hayes, Hayes if he was only to get picks, fine, but he has term on his contract and makes this team older, yet again.

Also the insane log jam Dubas has created of 4th liners and 3rd line tweeners.

Acciari, Nieto, Bemstrom, Beauvillier, Lizotte, Hayes, Eller...what competition for youth?

Lizotte I like, same for Beauvillier as somewhat younger options but I would like them more if Acciari, Nieto, and Hayes were f***ing gone. Also it's funny for a Coach that supposedly likes the handedness playing to their side on D, having Grz, Aho, and Ludvig as all lefties and only 2 right handed defensemen really doesn't help, especially on a defense coached to shit.

 

[eXile3]

Blues won with a lot of drafted players and some smart adds.
Florida won with almost entirely of smart adds and a few drafted talent.

Vegas I mean is like Florida in that same make up of their roster, Penguins were more of a blend of the Blues and Panthers, Caps the same, Avs etc all the same.

Blues I think were the deepest of own drafted and developed talent making up most of their Roster for the last 10 cup wins and roster make up. I want to say maybe 70% of that roster was the Blues own drafted players.


Oh I agree with Peat, the Blues were picking mostly in the 20-25th range for some of those players that are helping them a ton now and even back then, but a few in the 14-20 range as well and then a couple later in the draft like 2nd to 4th rounds.

Even Perron returning was technically a return of a homegrown talent for them. Parayko was a 3rd, Edmundson was a 2nd, Dunn was a 2nd, Barbashev was a 2nd, so yeah you can definitely keep building up a solid roster by just scouting well after the 1st round and then having a very good developmental staff.

Something I have zero faith in with the Penguins and even less with the coach and his mindset.

Edit: The EK move I think Dubas now sees his move as to retool and just add as many picks while still icing a fairly decent team in his coach's mind to keep drafting as many prospects to increase the percentage of hitting on future NHL'ers. It's a shame Dubas can't see past the hype he's been fed by the ownership and higher ups about Mike Sullivan, because while he's making pretty average and typical GM moves in that same position, he's ignoring some very glaring ones and falling prey to the same issues JR and Hextall/Burke fell into before him - That Mike Sullivan is the X-Factor for making the Penguins great.


He is an X-Factor for f***ing sure, for making the Penguins worse and setting them back about 5-10yrs.

As I’ve stated, there is no perfect model for and rebuild and I recognize it can be done without tanking with some creativity and luck. Blues are a good example.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I’m not rooting for us to lose. Rebuilding sucks and nothing is guaranteed.

I’m just pointing historical evidence of what I believe is the most successful way to rebuild.

I just wish we would pick a direction. If we want to compete the next three years then commit to it. This half measure stuff worries me.

I don't think any Penguins fan is "rooting for us to lose" as much as they are "hoping the team loses enough to force changes" to get back to winning, you know what I mean mate?

Like what number of games lost in a row would get Sullivan fired? Go with that and after that go with trying to win again, lol.

As I’ve stated, there is no perfect model for and rebuild and I recognize it can be done without tanking with some creativity and luck. Blues are a good example.

There's a lot of examples, I think the best way is to constantly add better scouting and development staff vs what Dubas has done which is hire his old mates from the OHL that he brought over to the Leafs and then the Penguins.

So really, he's getting the same yes men back in his corner on his new team without anyone really interesting that can add a fresh new take or look for scouting and development. He just has the same blokes back with him that really didn't help him succeed where it counts with the Leafs, now on the Penguins. It really sucks to know that Mike Sullivan and his philosophy trickles down to WBS because FSG wanted him to streamline it, so they hired another puppet for WBS that is a Sullivan type to maintain consistency of a shit show.

That to me is how you don't succeed in a rebuild/retool. What made the Penguins a solid breeding ground for coaches was hiring the best coaching minds that were up and coming in WBS, blokes like Richards, Hynes, Yeo, Bylsma, Nasreddine, etc. Even Sullivan talked the talk but then as he gained more tenure with the Penguins, his true stubbornness set in, he completely abandoned what he was doing from 2015-2017.


Edit: Speaking of coaches, Mark Recchi being fired is comical and really not Mark Recchi's fault at all. He only got the Penguins gig because of cronyism and really should have been an Assistant Coach in WBS for years before he ever got a job as an Assistant Coach on a team that won a cup a year prior. That was a prestigious job that was seemingly handed to a friend by Mario & Co. At no fault of Recchi's own, why would he say no to that job? He should heed the advice of Bylsma and his path back to the NHL - Do the f***ing time, go be an assistant at the AHL level for a few years to figure out what kind of coach you want to be. Recchi getting hated on kind of sucks, he's just a bloke that got hired in other roles because of the one the Penguins gave him to have that title. Although teams should have done a better job of maybe interviewing more deserving candidates when NJ and CBJ hired him.

 

[Gurglesons]

I’m not rooting for us to lose. Rebuilding sucks and nothing is guaranteed.

I’m just pointing historical evidence of what I believe is the most successful way to rebuild.

I just wish we would pick a direction. If we want to compete the next three years then commit to it. This half measure stuff worries me.

Well, Kyle Dubas is a bad GM. So it's going to be hard to see him choose a direction. Because he thinks he's the smartest guy in the room when he's just really good at talking to the media and his supervisors.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Well, Kyle Dubas is a bad GM. So it's going to be hard to see him choose a direction. Because he thinks he's the smartest guy in the room when he's just really good at talking to the media and his supervisors.

It's easy to think you're the smartest bloke in the room when you've hired essentially all of your yes men from the last 2 jobs you've had in Management.

FSG, a f***wad of an entity in its own right, should have never allowed him to take on the GM role and forced him to actually hire someone that was properly vetted by other executives before Kindergarten Kyle was allowed to print off that contract. Dubas essentially f***ed himself by taking the GM job and no one will feel sorry for him for it, he had 1 job when being hired, find a GM that will help necessitate the Penguins return to the playoffs or a better future.

HE f***ed it.

 

[GilbertSeinfeld]

My biggest issue with Kindergarten Kyle is that he was never hired to be the General Manager of this team, he was hired to be the President of Hockey Operations, something he wanted on the Leafs but Shanahan didn't really care for. He was supposed to hire a GM and then decided to take on the job himself, I thought ok maybe a year, but now heading into year 2, he's still the GM and there doesn't seem to be any sign of him wanting to take a step back into the role he was hired for and hire someone to do the job he was supposed to hire someone for.

Dubas IS the GM; he answers to the real President of Hockey Operations; Mike Sullivan.

 

[eXile3]

Well, Kyle Dubas is a bad GM. So it's going to be hard to see him choose a direction. Because he thinks he's the smartest guy in the room when he's just really good at talking to the media and his supervisors.

We completely align in that area.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Dubas IS the GM; he answers to the real President of Hockey Operations; Mike Sullivan.

I mean personally I think Kyle Dubas took on the GM role as a proxy to Mike Sullivan and nothing can make me think otherwise. Some of the other moves Sullivan likely just tells him to go f***ing figure it out, but has his list of players he tells him to go get and make moves for.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

If you (and others) want to bottom out, then you should be campaigning like crazy for a Crosby trade, followed by a Letang trade, a Karlsson trade, etc. etc.

You have to play the hand you're dealt with, and I think everybody here would agree (and conclude) that we have been dealt the mother of all hands for the last two decades!

Chicago could not, and did not, bottom out until Toews and Kane were gone. They doubled down on those moves by not even qualifying Strome and trading DeBrincat. I don't think they got nearly enough for either Kane or DeBrincat, and lost the other two for nothing. THAT is how you bottom out.

People here want this team to bottom out, but we cannot as presently constructed. If you want the team to PLAN to bottom out, then fine.

But I still watch the games, and if their plan is to bottom out I cannot. Sorry, I am too old to watch the Chicago White Sox of hockey. And we live in a world where we have way too many options as a substitute.

Therefore, let's try to make the postseason, get in the tournament and see what happens. Once some of these mediocre players that we acquired this off-season prove that they are, you guessed it, mediocre, maybe we can wake up, smell the coffee and realize that we got better late last season when we got younger.

Hopefully, that realization won't be too late like it was last season.

I feel like you and I are the only ones left that want this team to actually... you know... try lol

People act like there won't be plenty of time to suck out loud. And that somehow hiring Kyle Dubas and paying him 7M to sit around and shrug while he collects 2nd and 3rd round picks years from now is a good use of resources. You could have hired some chud with a room temperature IQ to do that job.

But whatever. Not my money. I guess if FSG can just afford to light giant piles of cash on fire and laugh about it that's on them.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Well, Kyle Dubas is a bad GM. So it's going to be hard to see him choose a direction. Because he thinks he's the smartest guy in the room when he's just really good at talking to the media and his supervisors.

How does anyone even understand his running speech that's a thousand miles an hour?

He has his internal phonograph set on high speed. I'm surprised he hasn't skipped more jumbling up his message.

 

[Gurglesons]

I feel like you and I are the only ones left that want this team to actually... you know... try lol

People act like there won't be plenty of time to suck out loud. And that somehow hiring Kyle Dubas and paying him 7M to sit around and shrug while he collects 2nd and 3rd round picks years from now is a good use of resources. You could have hired a chud with a room temperature IQ to do that job.

It's funny.

Imagine if we just got Walman instead of Hayes and didn't throw around all our cap to sign random vets.

DOC - Crosby - Rust
Bunting - Malkin - Rakell
Beauvillier - Glass - Puustinen
Poulin - Eller - Acciari

Pettersson - EK
Walman - Letang
Graves - St Ivany

Jarry
Ned

How many of us are stoked about this roster? Got younger, lots of cap, and we got the picks that we got to build for the future.

Instead for some reason we signed traded for Hayes and Glass and then signed more old randos to block out Poulin and Pono and potentially Puustinen. Don't get it.

 

[Freeptop]

Weegar was a 206th overall pick.

Huberdeau was drafted in 2011.

And nobody is saying you don't need high draft picks. Just the idea that you "blow it all up" isn't necessarily any more successful over the last 10-15 years then rebuilding and having a few bad years while trying to remain somewhat successful.

I think a key, though, in this "new way" is a willingness to change what this organization believes a roster should look like. Both Florida and Vegas focused a]on a more heavy, physical style and b]didn't stick religiously with a "top six score, bottom six defend only" way of building the roster. Both are things the Pens still seem to refuse to do.

I also think there's an element of being able to attract/sign high end guys. I don't know if Pittsburgh's going to be the type of free agent destination where you can kickstart a rebuild on the fly by adding a top end FA like a Panarin or a Bobrovsky to the mix.

Whitney was available because they already had a recent top 4 and they had given Gogo and Letang legitimate time when they were 21 and 23. MT was willing to play them. We don't have both a Gogo AND a Letang at the moment. We have Pickering and that's about it. I don't think anyone else has that potential at the moment. But a key was willing to play your youth so that you are okay selling a guy like Whitney.

Looking at this year, it would be us giving the likes of Pickering, JSI, Shea, Gryz the playing time and watching them excel to make a guy like Graves or, more likely, Pettersson available. Unless we are clearly in a playoff position, I 100% expect us to ship Pettersson out for a nice, meaty return. Likely a 1st+ with 50% retention and then a guy like Gryz or Aho or whoever, fills that gap as best we can. You also hope that Graves does better to help solidify the left side.

To be clear - I wasn't meaning my comment to be a reflection on what the Pens are, or should be, doing. Just that it bugged me that there seems to be a narrative that Florida made a Cup Winning Team without the benefit of good drafting. That's not the case - they did do good drafting. They just also made smart decisions about when to keep the players they drafted, and when to be willing to move them in service of bringing in a piece that would elevate the whole team (well, plus they got lucky that a player like Tkachuk was basically forcing his way out, and was willing to go to Florida; but few people really like to talk about how much of a factor luck often plays in winning the Cup!)

I don't think the Pens are anywhere near a Cup contending team. I do think that acquiring more picks will help with increasing the chances of getting good players in the future. Whether that's directly in the form of the prospects picked, or indirectly thanks to trades.

 

[Ugene Magic]

I feel like you and I are the only ones left that want this team to actually... you know... try lol

People act like there won't be plenty of time to suck out loud. And that somehow hiring Kyle Dubas and paying him 7M to sit around and shrug while he collects 2nd and 3rd round picks years from now is a good use of resources. You could have hired some chud with a room temperature IQ to do that job.

But whatever. Not my money. I guess if FSG can just afford to light giant piles of cash on fire and laugh about it that's on them.

I want them to try, but Dubas is in poor form.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

It's funny.

Imagine if we just got Walman instead of Hayes and didn't throw around all our cap to sign random vets.

DOC - Crosby - Rust
Bunting - Malkin - Rakell
Beauvillier - Glass - Puustinen
Poulin - Eller - Acciari

Pettersson - EK
Walman - Letang
Graves - St Ivany

Jarry
Ned

How many of us are stoked about this roster? Got younger, lots of cap, and we got the picks that we got to build for the future.

Instead for some reason we signed traded for Hayes and Glass and then signed more old randos to block out Poulin and Pono and potentially Puustinen. Don't get it.

Most Penguins fans these days would have just complained that there weren't enough rental flips on the roster that they could rub their hands together and fantasize about those big fat 2nd rounders at the TDL they could return.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Imagine if we just got Walman instead of Hayes and didn't throw around all our cap to sign random vets.

DOC - Crosby - Rust
Bunting - Malkin - Rakell
Beauvillier - Glass - Puustinen
Poulin - Eller - Acciari

Pettersson - EK
Walman - Letang
Graves - St Ivany

Jarry
Ned

How many of us are stoked about this roster? Got younger, lots of cap, and we got the picks that we got to build for the future.

Instead for some reason we signed traded for Hayes and Glass and then signed more old randos to block out Poulin and Pono and potentially Puustinen. Don't get it.

I really want Rust f***ing traded so we don't have to keep seeing the dumb f***ing iteration of Doc-Crosby-Rust as a unit because it will bleed goals and Sullivan will f*** over Malkin's line to fix it and I'm f***ing over it with seeing that for almost 20yrs.

I want them to try, but Dubas is in poor form.

We all want them to try, but under a new coach that has some fresh new ideas and coaching philosophy vs the ignorant we have been stuck with for almost a decade.

 

[Ugene Magic]

It's funny.

Imagine if we just got Walman instead of Hayes and didn't throw around all our cap to sign random vets.

DOC - Crosby - Rust
Bunting - Malkin - Rakell
Beauvillier - Glass - Puustinen
Poulin - Eller - Acciari

Pettersson - EK
Walman - Letang
Graves - St Ivany

Jarry
Ned

How many of us are stoked about this roster? Got younger, lots of cap, and we got the picks that we got to build for the future.

Instead for some reason we signed traded for Hayes and Glass and then signed more old randos to block out Poulin and Pono and potentially Puustinen. Don't get it.

The compete/youth message is all a fraud. From Day 1 and bringing in Karlsson eating away at the cap.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

The compete/youth message is all a fraud. From Day 1 and bringing in Karlsson eating away at the cap.

I don't mind Karlsson here, again, it's the f***ing coach.

Sullivan's hard on of a roster would be:

O'Connor, Crosby, Rust
Bunting, Malkin, Rakell
Beauvillier, Hayes, Glass
Acciari, Eller, Lizotte/Puljujarvi

Cody sucks at faceoffs, he's really not that great at all. I see them trying him at RW to free him up potentially to give that a try, maybe a battle between Lizotte, Pooljuce, and Glass.

Puustinen and the others will be told they have to fight for a spot and can do well, but really, they aren't veterans so f*** them - Sullivan probably.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Sullivan's hard on of a roster would be:

Bunting, Crosby, Rust
Beauvillier, Eller, Rakell
ZAR, Hayes, Acciari
Lizotte, Glass, Malkin/Puljujarvi

FTFY

 

[Ugene Magic]

I don't mind Karlsson here, again, it's the f***ing coach.

Sullivan's hard on of a roster would be:

O'Connor, Crosby, Rust
Bunting, Malkin, Rakell
Beauvillier, Hayes, Glass
Acciari, Eller, Lizotte/Puljujarvi

Cody sucks at faceoffs, he's really not that great at all. I see them trying him at RW to free him up potentially to give that a try, maybe a battle between Lizotte, Pooljuce, and Glass.

Puustinen and the others will be told they have to fight for a spot and can do well, but really, they aren't veterans so f*** them - Sullivan probably.

Their stance of having 2 - 3rd lines is just atrocious and what leads to having a very costly 4th line. It's just a bunch of meh players jumbled together.

I can't even come up with a suitable term for that bottom six.