Salary Cap: Pens Summer Salary Thread: Dull days of August... Oooo! A trade!

[Jacob]

Glass had a comparable PPG to Yager in their post-draft seasons. Then went to 1.8 PPG in his final WHL season. Pretty productive in the WHL.

And usually the guys that put up 1.8 PPG or close to it but never make it as NHLers are small.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

@AuroraBorealis in shambles after the Frasca trade.

note: I'm only on page 3 of this thread

It was a crushing blow, at a time where I was already dishevelled.

Hope he does well there. Can't knock the trade though. Both were excellent yesterday.

 

[Peat]

Go look at some of the most successful teams since the lockout. The most tried and proven way is to acquire top talent in the draft and build around it. Yes there are exceptions but few and far between.

Vegas and Florida winning feels like the start of a potential new zeitgeist. Obviously Vegas is weird and not something others can emulate but Florida's winning core was pretty much grafted onto Barkov. NYR surging is another tick in the box for not having to build through the draft. I'm not sure they're few and far between any more.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Go look at some of the most successful teams since the lockout. The most tried and proven way is to acquire top talent in the draft and build around it. Yes there are exceptions but few and far between.

And look at how those teams who didn’t surround those top talent with complementary pieces did.

The Penguins are at the “building a foundation” part of their rebuild. They’re getting the Orpiks, Malones, Armstrongs and such to have a young base to help their next core once they draft that next core. The absolute last thing you want is to draft a top young guy and have literally no help around him.

They don’t want their next core to be a Bedard in Chicago type of situation.

 

[Andy99]

Vegas and Florida winning feels like the start of a potential new zeitgeist. Obviously Vegas is weird and not something others can emulate but Florida's winning core was pretty much grafted onto Barkov. NYR surging is another tick in the box for not having to build through the draft. I'm not sure they're few and far between any more.

Yes, sort of…not tried and true for the Pens or other teams where players forcing their way off teams or pending UFAs don’t want to go…maybe a zeitgeist lol for teams in NYC and Florida where players want to play…

 

[Peat]

Yes, sort of…not tried and true for the Pens or other teams where players forcing their way off teams or pending UFAs don’t want to go…maybe a zeitgeist lol for teams in NYC and Florida where players want to play…

Most of Florida's acquisitions weren't Florida or bust. Maybe only Tkachuk had a small list with Florida on it. They were just smart and took on a bunch of high potential players for cheap prices and got a ton of hits. Hell some of their most important players were waiver claims or signed as free agents with mostly AHL experience.

The St Louis win had very few high picks on the books either, and traded for both of their top six centres shortly before. Probably the worst team to win it recently, but win it they did. And St Loius isn't exactly a destination.

 

[eXile3]

And look at how those teams who didn’t surround those top talent with complementary pieces did.

The Penguins are at the “building a foundation” part of their rebuild. They’re getting the Orpiks, Malones, Armstrongs and such to have a young base to help their next core once they draft that next core. The absolute last thing you want is to draft a top young guy and have literally no help around him.

They don’t want their next core to be a Bedard in Chicago type of situation.

I don’t disagree. I just worry we’ll play ourselves into a corner of mediocrity, preventing the top tier talent acquisition.

 

[Sidgeni Malkby]

If Dubas wanted a soft Boston type rebuild, then he should have fired Sullivan…If Dubas wanted a coach to develop young players, he should have fired Sullivan…if he wanted to tank, then Sullivan is perfect lol

We have gotten quiet on Sullivan because the summer is Dubas' time to fix or screw up the roster. I'm just waiting for the season to start, and watch all the stupid Sully moves for another season.

I see mostly minor tweaks but with a purpose. The PP sucked so we hired a new PP coach. Depth scoring was an issue so we brought in Lizotte, Beauvillier, Glass, and basically replaced Carter with Hayes. Graves wasn’t really locked into the 2nd pair so Grzelcyk adds depth and some insurance.

In theory...
- D is better with Grzelyk. Hope is Quinn can revitalize Karlsson & Graves.
- Bottom 6 is a little younger, but full of reclamation (Beauvilier) and cap-dump reclamation projects (Glass/Hayes).
- Top 6 is talent wise worst. We lost Smith, which was already a downgrade from Zucker (based on performance), but we didn't replace him with anything. We replaced Guentzel with Bunting. I like Bunting, but that is AT BEST a sideways move.

Point is we clearly didn't move upwards overall. I mean, the moves are there to make it interesting (not exciting).

The team is built like a house of cards...just waiting for Sully to toddler swing it to the ground!

 

[Andy99]

Saw this a few days ago…completely right…our old guys don’t move and treated the PP like a rest period for much of the season….

 

[SomeDude]

Saw this a few days ago…completely right…our old guys don’t move and treated the PP like a rest period for much of the season….

I should have thought of monetizing saying the obvious things that have been pointed out over and over again over the last 2 years.

HF needs to make a premium poster subscription service where people have to pay to see posts from advanced thinkers such as myself and hair guy. Don’t all line up at once.

 

[Andy99]

Most of Florida's acquisitions weren't Florida or bust. Maybe only Tkachuk had a small list with Florida on it. They were just smart and took on a bunch of high potential players for cheap prices and got a ton of hits. Hell some of their most important players were waiver claims or signed as free agents with mostly AHL experience.

The St Louis win had very few high picks on the books either, and traded for both of their top six centres shortly before. Probably the worst team to win it recently, but win it they did. And St Loius isn't exactly a destination.

Florida still had Barkov and Ekblad and someone like Tkachuk could put them over the edge…St Louis still had Tarasenko, Thomas was a draft pick, Buchnevich, Kyrou and traded a promising young player of high pedigree in Thompson for OReilly, so a lot was comprised of draft picks and high end trades…they may not have been in the top 5 but they hit on a lot of lower draft picks under Armstrong…kind of like Dallas…if you don’t get top picks, you really need to find a Hintz and Robertson and Johnston and Thomas among your lower draft picks…chances aren’t great lol

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Anyone notice how there's like no reputable hockey site anymore?

Hockeyfeed is dumb as shit with the dumbest writers I've ever seen and The Hockey Writers is in the same boat.

Saw this a few days ago…completely right…our old guys don’t move and treated the PP like a rest period for much of the season….

It's why Puustinen on the powerplay looked so good because he f***ing moved.

 

[BusinessGoose]

I should have thought of monetizing saying the obvious things that have been pointed out over and over again over the last 2 years.

HF needs to make a premium poster subscription service where people have to pay to see posts from advanced thinkers such as myself and hair guy. Don’t all line up at once.

".... Before we go over the top ten things the Penguins powerplay could do in the future, let me talk to the guys out there about today's sponsor, Manscaped.

Guys, i get it, you're busy between working hard, working out, and discussing your favorite sports teams at a high level.

But if it's getting, minnesota wild... Down there, you gotta check out Manscaped and their full range of products to get you back to high speed, low drag,championship level grooming.

Check-out with code Pens24 for 15% off your first re-curring subscription box.

And now, back to what will improve the Penguins powerplay. Number ten, score more goals... "

 

[Peat]

Florida still had Barkov and Ekblad and someone like Tkachuk could put them over the edge…St Louis still had Tarasenko, Thomas was a draft pick, Buchnevich, Kyrou and traded a promising young player of high pedigree in Thompson for OReilly, so a lot was comprised of draft picks and high end trades…they may not have been in the top 5 but they hit on a lot of lower draft picks under Armstrong…kind of like Dallas…if you don’t get top picks, you really need to find a Hintz and Robertson and Johnston and Thomas among your lower draft picks…chances aren’t great lol

Ekblad was their number 2 dman at 5v5 and played next to no PP time. I'm not saying that's nothing but that's pretty far from being a guy they needed to pick at the top of the draft. He wasn't their most important dman or maybe even their second most.

For St Louis' cup win, was Thomas a second rounder who played 13 minutes a night and Kyrou didn't play. They didn't have Buchnevich then.

Is it hard to go around getting great talent in in the late 1st/2nd/later or through trade? Yeah. Very. But it seems to be getting more doable. It's also kinda of noticeable that a lot of the more recent built through the draft teams aren't having a bunch of fun. The Buffalos/Edmontons/Torontos that should have taken over from the Pittsburghs/Chicagos/Washingtons haven't. That narrative looks a bit different if Edmonton win for sure, but I think it's enough to say the way to team build in the NHL is maybe changing.

That doesn't make it applicable for every team and I make the point as a generality.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Saw this a few days ago…completely right…our old guys don’t move and treated the PP like a rest period for much of the season….

It's a shame they never found a way to utilize Guentzel properly on the PP. Carolina didn't have the same problem.
I never felt like Jake is a bad PP player at all. Just not enough puck touches here. And he shouldn't be net-front either.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

It's a shame they never found a way to utilize Guentzel properly on the PP. Carolina didn't have the same problem.
I never felt like Jake is a bad PP player at all. Just not enough puck touches here. And he shouldn't be net-front either.

They could have put him on the offside where Crosby roams and his shot/1 timer would have been enough of a threat. But why improve team performance to cater to 1 star?

 

[PensandCaps]

Glass had 14 goals and 35 points in a middle six role a year ago, only 25 still. Can't complain at all about the trade. Glass and Hayes can be flipped again, though if Glass shows something, I'd keep a young centre.

Ekblad was their number 2 dman at 5v5 and played next to no PP time. I'm not saying that's nothing but that's pretty far from being a guy they needed to pick at the top of the draft. He wasn't their most important dman or maybe even their second most.

For St Louis' cup win, was Thomas a second rounder who played 13 minutes a night and Kyrou didn't play. They didn't have Buchnevich then.

Is it hard to go around getting great talent in in the late 1st/2nd/later or through trade? Yeah. Very. But it seems to be getting more doable. It's also kinda of noticeable that a lot of the more recent built through the draft teams aren't having a bunch of fun. The Buffalos/Edmontons/Torontos that should have taken over from the Pittsburghs/Chicagos/Washingtons haven't. That narrative looks a bit different if Edmonton win for sure, but I think it's enough to say the way to team build in the NHL is maybe changing.

That doesn't make it applicable for every team and I make the point as a generality.

Yah, Forsling has been better for a few seasons, same with Montour.

 

[Gurglesons]

Ekblad was their number 2 dman at 5v5 and played next to no PP time. I'm not saying that's nothing but that's pretty far from being a guy they needed to pick at the top of the draft. He wasn't their most important dman or maybe even their second most.

For St Louis' cup win, was Thomas a second rounder who played 13 minutes a night and Kyrou didn't play. They didn't have Buchnevich then.

Is it hard to go around getting great talent in in the late 1st/2nd/later or through trade? Yeah. Very. But it seems to be getting more doable. It's also kinda of noticeable that a lot of the more recent built through the draft teams aren't having a bunch of fun. The Buffalos/Edmontons/Torontos that should have taken over from the Pittsburghs/Chicagos/Washingtons haven't. That narrative looks a bit different if Edmonton win for sure, but I think it's enough to say the way to team build in the NHL is maybe changing.

That doesn't make it applicable for every team and I make the point as a generality.

Agree 100%.

The Pittsburgh / Chicago / Los Angeles model was the way to win up until our last cup / washington's.

Most teams that have won since were built with the assistance of top picks, but mostly through taking advantage of teams in cap situations and making smart transactions.

Maybe that is because of the impact of COVID and the flat cap.

But we shall see. The teams that are built around multiple 1st round picks are all consistently missing the playoffs and teams like NYR, Boston, etc have had greater success doing quick turn arounds with a one or two bad years.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Common denominator for these Cup winners is goaltending getting hot at right time

And since the Pens win- physicality tbh

 

[Freeptop]

One thing that bugs me a bit when talking about how Florida didn't build their team through the draft - yeah, the team that won didn't have a ton of players they'd drafted on it, but it's worth noting that to get Tkachuk, they had to have players like Huberdeau and Weegar, whom they did draft in order to acquire him.

It's kind of like how the Pens wouldn't have been able to get Kunitz without having Whitney to trade for him.

You can't build a team solely through free agency, especially under a Salary Cap. And to be able to make trades, you have to have something the other teams want in return - and the best players aren't usually available solely for draft picks.

 

[Gurglesons]

Glass had 14 goals and 35 points in a middle six role a year ago, only 25 still. Can't complain at all about the trade. Glass and Hayes can be flipped again, though if Glass shows something, I'd keep a young centre.


Yah, Forsling has been better for a few seasons, same with Montour.

Ekblad was down right awful last year.

I'm shocked they didn't try and cash in on him.

 

[SomeDude]

".... Before we go over the top ten things the Penguins powerplay could do in the future, let me talk to the guys out there about today's sponsor, Manscaped.

Guys, i get it, you're busy between working hard, working out, and discussing your favorite sports teams at a high level.

But if it's getting, minnesota wild... Down there, you gotta check out Manscaped and their full range of products to get you back to high speed, low drag,championship level grooming.

Check-out with code Pens24 for 15% off your first re-curring subscription box.

And now, back to what will improve the Penguins powerplay. Number ten, score more goals... "

What number is “not give up so many short handed goals”

 

[Gurglesons]

One thing that bugs me a bit when talking about how Florida didn't build their team through the draft - yeah, the team that won didn't have a ton of players they'd drafted on it, but it's worth noting that to get Tkachuk, they had to have players like Huberdeau and Weegar, whom they did draft in order to acquire him.

It's kind of like how the Pens wouldn't have been able to get Kunitz without having Whitney to trade for him.

You can't build a team solely through free agency, especially under a Salary Cap. And to be able to make trades, you have to have something the other teams want in return - and the best players aren't usually available solely for draft picks.

Weegar was a 206th overall pick.

Huberdeau was drafted in 2011.

And nobody is saying you don't need high draft picks. Just the idea that you "blow it all up" isn't necessarily any more successful over the last 10-15 years then rebuilding and having a few bad years while trying to remain somewhat successful.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

Agree 100%.

The Pittsburgh / Chicago / Los Angeles model was the way to win up until our last cup / washington's.

Most teams that have won since were built with the assistance of top picks, but mostly through taking advantage of teams in cap situations and making smart transactions.

Maybe that is because of the impact of COVID and the flat cap.

But we shall see. The teams that are built around multiple 1st round picks are all consistently missing the playoffs and teams like NYR, Boston, etc have had greater success doing quick turn arounds with a one or two bad years.

Agreed.

1 or 2 top talent but making trades with teams in good situations.

A majority of Florida Panthers were from trades with teams who either had cap problems or the player wanted out.

I do not see us on Florida's position but adding players with draft picks and taking advantage of cap space is definitely the way to go.

It does suck most of the cap space is now used up with this deal making mid season trades slightly more difficult for us in taking advantage.

 

[Gurglesons]

Agreed.

1 or 2 top talent but making trades with teams in good situations.

A majority of Florida Panthers were from trades with teams who either had cap problems or the player wanted out.

I do not see us on Florida's position but adding players with draft picks and taking advantage of cap space is definitely the way to go.

It does suck most of the cap space is now used up with this deal making mid season trades slightly more difficult for us in taking advantage.

Yager and another top 10 picks gives us a decent group to build around. Especially because you imagine the team is in for some rougher waters in a two to three years.